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How like a man...

 
 
Nessus
18:39 / 23.08.02
How does one "be a man"?

What does it mean to be a "man"?

What sort of man should one be?


Although regionally and spiritually biased, societies usually have firm, albeit archaic, ideals of what a man is. Typically, these ideals are based on traits which said society deems "masculine". Male children are encouraged to mimic and essentially replicate a male figure who represents masculinity in a way that the parents or caretakers respect and admire. The kind of man this mentor is is largely dependent on the type of man the caretakers want the child to become.

In my case, that mentor was my father. I spent my childhood blindly following his lead, striving to become the man he was. To a large degree, I succeeded. I achieved his state of calm (read cold) resolution and steadfast sense of responsibility. In and of themselves, these are not bad character traits. However, they seem to have some serious inherent flaws if taken as character definitions. In my adult life these flaws have developed a particular gravity and, for this reason, I have spent several years dissecting my own perceptions of what a man is. This is not a "help me decide who to be" thread, I'm just curious about other perspectives on this.

Is it politically correct or socially valid to seperate individuals according to gender? Biologically it's hard to argue the fact that male and female are different braches on the same tree, but emotionally and mentally these divisions become hazy.

I have known many women with stereotypically masculine traits and men with feminine traits.

Is it possible that the traditional definitions of masculine and feminine need to be re-evaluated, or are they even valid ideas anymore?

Is it even necessary to define femininity and masculinity or should we concentrate on personality and reject gender division as much as possible?
 
 
SMS
00:04 / 24.08.02
Be a man. Act like a man.

I think of being strong, mentally and emotionally. You take care of problems, as opposed to whining about them. If you learn to be a man, you shouldn't be concerned about superficial things, although you may have a little too much pride about your honor. Sometimes, people trying to be a man may seem cold, but really being a man does not require being without compassion.

The man is courageous, honorable, kind, and reasoning. He differs not just from being a woman, but also from being a boy. Being a man is being an adult; it is being mature.

Famous men: Sean Connery, John Wayne, Frank Sinatra, Muhammed Ali, Martin Luther King Jr., Mohandas Gandhi, Winston Churchill

These are good traits, I think. Maybe that's not really the most important point. There are other traits that aren't manly traits. Maybe we emphasize the manly traits too much. On the other hand, maybe we implicitly ask too little manliness of women. "You've got a lot of balls, lady," is something you might hear, but it sounds considerably different than, "you've got a lot of balls, man." Of course, "guts," means the same thing, and carries a only subtle gender implication at worst.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:48 / 24.08.02
Sean Connery, John Wayne, Frank Sinatra, Muhammed Ali, Martin Luther King Jr., Mohandas Gandhi, Winston Churchill

A wife-beater, a mob spiv, a racist...>I think what we may have here is the difference between "being a man" and "being a man on television".

SMatthew's post, as well as being utterly terrifying, produces some interesting outcroppings. If the man is "courageous, honorable, kind, and reasoning", the woman he exists in contrast to is presumably cowardly, treacherous, unkind and unreasonable. Not to mention weak, mentally and emotionally. No wonder, then, that he suggests women could do with being a bit more....manly.

Am I alone in suspecting that viewpoints on "being a man" may well tie in heavily to constructions of an ideal and often absent father?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:57 / 24.08.02
No - Garth Ennis is with you.

I seem to remember we had this discussion before several times, and back then some interesting ideas were thrown up which I can't remember exactly (that's what happens if you stay here long enough). Basically I think the end conclusion was that there are certain attributes associated with "being a man" that may be positive in a variety of ways (ethical, emotional or aesthetic), but to connect these attributes with any idea of biologically determined gender or unthinking acceptance of 'traditional' (ie relatively recent Western) gender roles would be misguided to put it mildly. To paraphrase the Dread Pirate Crunchy, the great thing about "being a man" is that it's not just for men.

This is before we even get on to the negative aspects of "being a man" that may be championed - eg, the fondness for physical violence demonstrated by many of SMatthew's really manly men...
 
 
glassonion
13:31 / 24.08.02
does anyone actualy hold ennis' preacher opinion - that hitting a woman is almost completely unforgivable, far worse than, say eating a man's throat for your dinner?

(Moderator note - the question asked here shoudl be considered in terms of "what it is to be a man", not general ethics. So, is hitting a woman so incredibly unmanly that to do so puts you beyond the pale of manhood in a way that no amount of violence against another man could?)
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:50 / 24.08.02
Flyboy, you've managed to sum up the thread and a reasonable conclusion pretty well. So I'm not sure that there is much to add, you threadkiller, you.

Haus, I am also a touch disturbed by SMS post but I wonder how many of us here are inept or uneasy at being "men"? As for it being due to an absent father figure, I couldn't say. A role model is bound to be important, I suppose, and the absence of one is going to cause difficulties. But its something that I could only comment on from personal experience, so I'm not sure that it would have much general validity. For what its worth, I've never felt comfortable with what I perceived to be my alloted role. I had a very present father who is short (not a manly trait, you'll agree) and, given his backgroud, surprisingly intellectual.

But I'd like to ask for people's reactions to the following. I've heard it argued that traditional male gender roles are in fact more stringent than the corresponding female roles (I am simplifying a bit and supposing that there are only really two recognised traditional gender roles). I think the idea is that with greater economic freedom and oppurtunity comes great requirement to be emotionally stunted.

The evidence usually put forward is from child psychology - I find it oddly disturbing to see babies treated as "boys" and "girls" so rigidly. Also, one might see the different treatment of gays and lesbians in this light. Some might even claim that - along with the absence of a masculinist movement - this is the source of the male crisis of identity in our privileged corner of the globe. Not sure about that at all. Thoughts?
 
 
Jack Sprat
14:09 / 24.08.02
All I really need to be a man is a 56% raise.

(Don't let my name fool you. I'm biologically female.)
 
 
SMS
14:48 / 24.08.02
A wife-beater, a mob spiv, a racist...>I think what we may have here is the difference between "being a man" and "being a man on television".

In the cases of John Wayne, Sean Connery, and Frank Sinatra, I meant their stage personas. In fact, I probably meant that for all of them. They are there as an image and a descriptor. Do you suppose I meant all their attributes are attrributes of manliness? Do you suppose that, when I say Frank Sinatra is "manly," that I meant everything about him, from his shoe size to his mob ties, is manly? What do you suppose I meant when I said that "there are other traits that aren't manly traits. Maybe we emphasize the manly traits too much." Not being a racist may be a good thing without being associated with manliness.

Is Churchill the racist, btw?


SMatthew's post, as well as being utterly terrifying, produces some interesting outcroppings. If the man is "courageous, honorable, kind, and reasoning", the woman he exists in contrast to is presumably cowardly, treacherous, unkind and unreasonable. Not to mention weak, mentally and emotionally. No wonder, then, that he suggests women could do with being a bit more....manly.

maybe we implicitly ask too little manliness of women.

To clarify, I meant that, in associating the word man with these manly traits, maybe we implicitly exclude women. I'm looking at the word as something distinct from being male. The suggestion wasn't that women ought to be more manly, but that everybody ought to be more manly (courageous, honorable, etc.), and that the word itself doesn't carry that same suggestion because it has the "man" in it.
 
 
Slim
15:39 / 24.08.02
A real man wouldn't bother reading this thread or questioning what it is to be a man. He'd laugh at all you "nancyboys" and then eat some beef jerkey.
 
 
paw
16:03 / 24.08.02
this thread reminds me of the line in the simpsons where homer turns to marge in bed and say 'do you have to be so effeminate round the boy?'
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:17 / 24.08.02
Well, now that SMatthewStole has made it clear that his list of masculine icons are there for their image only, and not the actual content of their (or their character's) lives, I think he accidentally hits on exactly what this is all about - that 'manliness' is nothing more than a projected image. And of course, manilness-as-code-of-ethics is bullshit, cos good ethics is for everyone, not just macho men.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
16:45 / 24.08.02
Lurid wrote: I've heard it argued that traditional male gender roles are in fact more stringent than the corresponding female roles (I am simplifying a bit and supposing that there are only really two recognised traditional gender roles). I think the idea is that with greater economic freedom and oppurtunity comes great requirement to be emotionally stunted.

I don't think it's the relationship to economic freedom that requires those with it to be emotionally stunted. I think the reason that female roles are less stringent is that the success that will be recognized in a capitalist patriarchy is one that comes from taking up roles more identifed with being for men. If a man took on roles that had been reserved for women, in this (I guess I'm talking Western?) culture, his success isn't rewarded in ways that a capitalist patriarchy implies are meaningful.

This is probably barely related, but I'm kind of thinking about it in terms of drag, the discrepency between laughs garnered by males and females. When males dress in drag for comedic purposes--laugh riot ensues! Because it is ridiculous that any real man would actually want to be seen as a woman; he has nothing to gain from that (I'm thinking especially about high school skits, but I don't doubt this could apply to lots of performance); it's laughable he would want to be less than he is. Whereas a woman dressing in drag? There's nothing special about that. Women wear pants all the time, and even with some pasted-on facial hair, it's only *natural* that a female would want to up her social class by being mistaken for a man.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
16:48 / 24.08.02
Quoting myself: I don't think it's the relationship to economic freedom that requires those with it to be emotionally stunted.

Um, rather, I do. At least, I think the financial rewards are a part of it.
 
 
—| x |—
18:08 / 24.08.02
Is it possible that the traditional definitions of masculine and feminine need to be re-evaluated, or are they even valid ideas anymore?

I do no think that traditional definitions of masculine and feminine were ever valid; rather, they were merely dogmatically accepted and perpetuated blindly. Certainly, some of this stems to a rigid dualistic categorization of reality. As Mr. Haus notes in his post, “[i]f the man is "courageous, honorable, kind, and reasoning", the woman he exists in contrast to is presumably cowardly, treacherous, unkind and unreasonable.” This goes back to at least the Pythagoreans and their dreaded table of opposites. What occurs, not only on that table but above and beyond the twenty qualities it lists, is that all character traits that are seen as desirable—by a society built on patriarchy—are attributed to maleness, or “manliness:” courage, strength, valour, honour, etc. Thus, the side of the fence that femininity gets placed on will include, by default, the dualistic pairing of all these traits (like Mr. Haus notes in his post); i.e., femininity will become associated with all the reciprocal negative qualities of the positive qualities found on the “manly” side of the fence.

However, there is no reason to suppose that any of these distinctions are based in any sort of reality beyond the patriarchal authority; that is, there are no “valid” reasons (as in defensible reasons) to suppose that such division is correct. In fact, much of the reasons that people have argued over the years for putting trait z in column A (which we will say includes “maleness” ) as opposed to placing it in column B (which we will say includes “femaleness” ) is simply arbitrary choice. Moreover, such division has most often (if not always) been formulated by men—men in positions of power and authority who desire to see themselves in a positive light. Oh the vanity and arrogance of ignorance!

So, certainly “traditional definitions” of masculine and feminine need to be re-evaluated because they are based on a faulty understanding of an illusory division amongst contraries. We need to see that such distinctions are not rigidly polarized, and that, while the biological expressions of male and female are generally a naturally occurring either/or, the traits that human beings associate with this biological gender division are not rigidly categorical under our interpretations. We must allow our interpretations to include a sort of “uncertainty” which reflects our arbitrary distinctions. This means that traits like “courage,” “strength” (or whatever) become smeared out across the simple biological duality and thus occupy positions on either side of the fence. Certainly, for example, either a man or woman can display cowardice or courage; thus, we can’t say that courage falls under “manliness” alone, but we can’t say it is “womanliness” either.

Is it even necessary to define femininity and masculinity or should we concentrate on personality and reject gender division as much as possible?

Thus, it is not necessary in any way, nor possible in any sort of defensible manner, to define femininity and masculinity beyond biological constitution. There are physical differences, and it seems that this is all we can “validly” base distinctions on, but when it comes to associating any character traits with either femininity or masculinity, we are merely doing so based on arbitrary decisions that don’t hold any sort of rigid formulation (beyond that of dogmatic acceptance—i.e., the horseshit of some outmoded authority).

To "be a man" is to have the biological construction that we call “male.” To "be a woman" is to have the biological construction we call “female.” Above and beyond that, it’s wide open.
 
 
Ganesh
23:15 / 24.08.02
Which "biological construction" are we talking about here? Genitalia? Secondary sexual characteristics? Specific combinations of X and Y chromosomes? I can think of examples which stretch and blur any and all of the above; I'd dispute that "biology" is necessarily a reliable indicator of what makes a man and what makes a woman...
 
 
—| x |—
23:44 / 24.08.02
Well, all the better then!
 
 
Ganesh
00:26 / 25.08.02
Yes indeed, "all the better then". As far as 'being a man' goes, I'd say "biology" is pretty non-essential - which leaves the whole playing field wide open. At one level, I think the entire question is meaningless.
 
 
grant
03:46 / 25.08.02
Who said being a man is the opposite of being a woman?

Even in the traditional codes of, say, classic Hollywood cinema, a woman might be played against a man, but she was rarely his opposite. The villain was the opposite. (I'm thinking of William Powell and Myrna Loy as well as Sean Connery and any of the Bond girls. Bond himself is a bit vexed as a "man's man," since he dressed so pretty and all. Among other things.)
 
 
Cat Chant
07:19 / 25.08.02
Well, yes: being "a man" (as opposed to being a man) is so perilous and specific a category that it has to be shored up with negative exampla - it's not just women who are marked as "opposite", but men who are men "wrongly". Women get this too, obviously, cf Nicolas Cage's horrible wife vs lovely Bridget Fonda in It Could Happen To You) - this is all overlaid with class, race, and heterosexual codings as well, of course. Franz Fanon talks about how being "a man" is always being "a white man": black masculinity is framed as monstrous & "wrong" in dominant discourses. Contrariwise, I wonder whether the kind of "masculinity" SMS is describing is mostly romanticized as a "working-class" (and hence more "authentic" & "primal") quality? Going to university, for example, seems to be less about "becoming a man" than, say, going down the pit after your father... (Though when I bought my first pair of cufflinks recently, that felt like a rite of passage, like "becoming a man" in an odd way: that's because I associate them with my dad, though.)

Masculinity is pretty impossible, really - partly because at the same time that it's so strict & narrow, it's required to be unconsciously & "authentically" performed/assumed on the part of the man in question. I've thought for a while that just being-gendered in itself is sort of a "feminine" trait, so any man who is *too* masculine immediately flips into femininity (Superman's tights, bright colours, love of display; the Hulk's monstrous passion, uncontainable by a "normal" manly frame; James Bond's loucheness, as you mention).
 
 
—| x |—
08:25 / 25.08.02
"Who said being a man is the opposite of being a woman?"

Well grant, I don't really think they are myself per se; I see them more as complements. But your question did make me do some thinking in a different direction, and if you or anyone else is interested, please join me to discuss thisover here so as not to derail this thread's intended content.
 
 
—| x |—
08:35 / 25.08.02
Moreover, I would say that {male, female} defines a spectrum of gender and that no actual human being is fully at one end of the scale. Indeed, I would agree to the idea that gender is something that occurs on a graduated scale, and the polarization {male, female} is an illusion which serves to define the degrees.
 
 
SMS
16:40 / 25.08.02
It might be interesting to discuss how Wicca fits into gender definition. Far from rejecting male and female aspects, it places prime importance on them. Sometimes, it seems, even the arbitrariness of these aspects is embraced.
 
 
Nessus
17:21 / 25.08.02
While it appears that most of us agree that the traditional, narrow definitions of masculine and feminine have no place in our modern social climate, would a complete lack of descriptors, however ambiguous, leave us with a certain randomness and general loss of connection?

On one hand, the division imposed between man and woman results in inequality and gender based hierarchy as illustrated by Jack Sprat's post.

On the other, society seems to value this division to some degree, insofar as it can be used as a means of connection such as celebrations of "Women Artists", or culturally, "African American Filmmakers".

However, it can also be said that these public celebrations and gatherings are merely a side effect of a society riddled with festering value systems which necessitate the demand of respect that should be freely given.

I have successfully derailed my own half-baked argument.
 
 
Little Mother
09:19 / 26.08.02
Most of the stuff that's been listed so far is also what I think of as being a 'woman'. Maybe there is just a general 'nice person' template we'd all like to aspire to. When I think of a man I think of Aragorn whom I developed a crush (my first) on when I read it the first time and never got over.

"Is it possible that the traditional definitions of masculine and feminine need to be re-evaluated, or are they even valid ideas anymore?"

This is one of those thing where I say 'yes, of course' and then can't work out how to actually put it into practice, like disagreeing with the need for nationalism, but singing my self hoarse when Wales play rugby.I know that I tend to go for 'manly' men, muscles (though not too much :-)) etc but if I'm attracted to a woman it's more likely to be someone who, whilst not all eyelashes and nail polish, is more obviously 'feminine'.

On the hitting women front, I have seen girls take advantage of that and wing blokes up well beynond the point where another guy would have got thumped and in those cases I have no problem with someone who hits a girl. I tend to see it as anyone who beats up on someone smalled than them is wrong but it you start trouble, don't complain.
 
 
I, Libertine
12:18 / 26.08.02
Food for thought from the Coen Brothers:

Jeffrey Lebowski waves the Dude in without looking around.

LEBOWSKI
It's funny. I can look back on a
life of achievement, on challenges
met, competitors bested, obstacles
overcome. I've accomplished more
than most men, and without the use
of my legs. What. . . What makes a
man, Mr. Lebowski?

DUDE
Dude.

LEBOWSKI
Huh?

DUDE
I don't know, sir.

LEBOWSKI
Is it. . . is it, being prepared to
do the right thing? Whatever the
price? Isn't that what makes a man?

DUDE
Sure. That and a pair of testicles.

Lebowski turns away from the Dude with a haunted stare, lost
in thought.


LEBOWSKI
You're joking. But perhaps you're right.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:05 / 26.08.02
Kipling has some precise instructions on how to be a man (my son). Des Lynam does a good reading every four years just before England make a heroic world cup exit but...it really is kind of horrible. If I don't want to strain every sinew, if I just want to be a bit lazy and not do anyone any harm...do I still get a gender? If I am generally incompetent but still look good and talk wise...do I still count?
 
 
SMS
23:15 / 26.08.02
If I don't want to strain every sinew, if I just want to be a bit lazy and not do anyone any harm...do I still get a gender? If I am generally incompetent but still look good and talk wise...do I still count?

My initial reaction to this question is that, no, you don't. But that's not quite right. The real answer, I think, is that, to the best of us, even those without any apparent virtue count. I realize, though, that simply saying that reveals my own faults. Also, I acknowledge that being a bit lazy and being incompetence does not entail a complete lack of virtue, nor am I willing to readily accept that such persons really exist.

Soooo....
No, you don't count, but anyone else in the world who chooses to do the same does count.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:05 / 27.08.02
A wife-beater, a mob spiv, a racist

Sense and reference, Haus. In this case, as in many others involving celebrity, the reference makes a poor showing compared with the sense. But the sense is the vital thing, because Man is iconic, and these are icons.

Much of the difficulty in defining and acting Man, however, stems from precisely this confusion. Screen icons and celebs associated with masculinity turn out to be imperfect or rotten, and the Man who borrowed substance from them cannot then divorce himself from their sins.

Man is a role to aspire to. It's a sense of Alpha, and a sense of sacrifice and rulership. 'Man' is an institution of 'having won your spurs' - been schooled, been tested by the world, ready to meet what may come. On the one hand, those are things we still respect in many ways. On the other, they carry a right-wing conotation and the stigma of heteropatriarchy - not because they are inherently so, I think, but because they were and are heavily bound up with gender and sexual roles we now repudiate.

We might look for new ways of having those shapes - Stalwart and Mensch, perhaps - because men and women (of all genders) are going to need them.
 
 
Nessus
18:25 / 31.08.02
On a side note, I would like to recommend that anyone interested in this topic read Alister Macleod. He is a Canadian author with a strong connection to his Celtic roots and writes from a distinctly emotional male perspective.
 
  
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