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Argument vs. Rhetoric?

 
 
6opow
07:00 / 19.08.02
Using the Oxford Dictionary of Current English (Oxford University Press, 1996) we find the four following definitions:

argue v 1 exchange views forcefully or contentiously. 2 maintain by reasoning; indicate. 3 reason. 4 treat by reasoning. 5 persuade.

argument n 1 (esp. contentious) exchange of views, dispute. 2 reason given; reasoning process. 3 summary of a book etc.

rhetoric n 1 art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing. 2 language designed to persuade or impress (esp. seen as overblown and meaningless).

reasonn 1 motive cause, cause, or justification 2 fact adduced or served by this. 3 intellectual faculty by which conclusions are drawn from premises. 4 sanity. 5 sense; sensible conduct; what is right, practical, or practicable; moderation. —v 1 form or try to reach conclusions by connected thought. 2 use argument with by way of persuasion. 3 conclude or assert in argument. 4 persuade or move by argument. 5 think out. 6 express in a logical way. 7 embody reason in.

Within the context of our contemporary world rhetoric is often seen as a negative thing where as argument is seen as positive; that is, rhetoric has become a dirty word (as seen by the sentiment expressed in the parentheses in the above definition) and argument is seen as rigourous and acceptable.

However, both argument and rhetoric have persuasion in common. In the above definitions (or with mere reflection), we clearly see that an argument is language used in a manner which is designed to persuade someone of the conclusion drawn from some set of premises, and that rhetoric is also “language designed to persuade or impress.” I do not think it too far a stretch to think that argument is also designed to impress (although perhaps in a slightly different sense than rhetoric). Argument seems designed to impress upon us the truth of a conclusion (or conclusions) drawn from true premises, whereas rhetoric might be seen as designed to impress in the sense of making the producer of the rhetoric come to be seen in a favorable light. Leaving that sense aside, we can see that both argument and rhetoric use language in such a manner that both seek to persuade and impress in the sense that both seek to affect or influence the views of others.

Some might see rhetoric as unreasonable and argument as reasonable; this is, again, to focus on the perceived difference between these two forms of persuasion, but is this not merely a normative judgement? As seen in the definitions above, reason is tied in with notions of sanity, practicality, rightness, and sensibility; however, in turn these notions are intimately tied up with power and authority: we can ask who it is that is giving the criteria for what is seen as sane, what is seen as practical, what is seen as right, and what is seen as sensible. It appears that the label “rhetoric” can be given to an argument that is against the grain of such and such a power or authoritative structure, but the same language expressing the same meaning could be given the label “argument” by a different power or authoritative structure. In either case, we can see that both argument and rhetoric are designed to persuade and impress.

So, where is the real difference between the two? How is the line to be drawn in order to decide that a given set of expressions is reasonable and meaningful, or that the same set is overblown and meaningless?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 19.08.02
Ah well.

"Rhetoric" comes from the Ancient Greek rhetor, meaning "teacher". Specifically, rhetor was used to describe a loose group of itinerant tutors in the 5th century, whom wealthy men living in democracies (usually) engaged to trai their sons. The scope of this education is not entirely clear, and presumably varied from tutor to tutor, but generally included natural and moral philosophy and public speaking, including a kit of techniques to present arguments in an attractive, clear and convincing way...

Naturally, this led to a fair bit of suspicion and resentment on the part of the upright citizens of Athens, who were not happy to see their youth entrusted to dodgy intellekchuals from the Ionian coastline and Sicily. A general supposition seemed to have emerged (especially among the upper strata of society, who often felt that Eubulides and Pericles had collectively rendered society far *too* vulnerable to the whims of the mass, in any case) that the techniques they taught were a way to "make the worse defeat the better argument" (Aristophanes, Clouds). The rhetor would probably respond that his purpose was in fact to remove as many obstacles as possible to the reception of an idea or argument that might be presented by poor presentation.

This was based on the idea that people are fundamentally stupid, and, although a clever person like (insert speaker's name here) can identify this "rhetoric" for what it is - an attempt to bamboozle the credulous into accepting a bad argument by bombastic phrases, those less intelligent than (insert speaker's name) must be protected.

Although people no longer believe in general that lightning is the thunderbolt of Zeus, or that the Egyptians eat their dead, this representation of "rhetoric" has changed little in the intervening 2400 years. This is because people will always cast about for an easy reason to explain why, despite their obvious rectitude and superiority, they are getting their arse kicked in open debate.

For a bit more on what rhetoric actually *is*, try here. You may find that you use a lot of "rhetoric" in everyday speech...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:19 / 19.08.02
Rhetoric was also closely associated with magic in the 5th Century, because an excellent rhetoritician could convince men to do completely illogical things -- that is, to behave against nature as the Greek philosophers saw it. His goal was to apply psychological pressure to the decisions of other men. Both reason and rhetoric were tekne, crafts, but rhetoric was also pharmakon, an art. There are a number of types of rhetorical argument, such as the ad hominem (appealing to emotion, like comparing your opponent to Hitler) or the ad ignorantum (an argument based on lack of information, like asserting the existence of God because no nonextistence can be proven), but a great deal of the 'work' of a rhetoritician is done with the voice and posture and timing.

The problem with rhetoric is that it can only be used to manipulate the ignorant. I don't recall every step of this argument, as it involved inquiries into the nature of goodness and suchlike, but basically any educated person (in the traditional Greek sense) can spot rhetoric, which is not strictly honest. Since reason is available to anyone (keeping in mind that no uneducated person was likely to have a mandate to speak), the educated person must assume that the speaker is intentionally concealing some ulterior motive. I guess we have a different understanding today of both human nature generally and the Greeks specifically, but still I'm always sort of shocked around election time at how nakedly rhetorical our politics are.

Plato felt it was possible for a king, preferably trained in the Academy, to master both the craft of reason and the art of rhetoric, dealing rationally with the educated and emotionally with the ignorant. The moral rectutide Plato ascribes to such a tyrant is also found in Confusious.

Q
 
 
Kase Taishuu
23:05 / 19.08.02
Although people no longer believe in general that lightning is the thunderbolt of Zeus, or that the Egyptians eat their dead, this representation of "rhetoric" has changed little in the intervening 2400 years.

ok, so here we are presented with a comparison between "lightning is the thunderbolt of Zeus" and the commonplace understanding of "rhetoric".

I mean, is that comparison relevant? One needs to be way stupider (or at least disinformed) to believe that lightnings are thunderbolts of Zeus than to think of rhetoric as people usually do (assuming this notion to be incorrect). Besides, these two "beliefs" belong to different categories alltogether and are completely independent of one another. So why to point out this particular difference - among so many others - between these particular two beliefs - among so many other (better) choices?

Simple: because it's intimidating. Even though what it states directly is absolutely correct (ppl don't believe in thunderbolts of Zeus, but still share the same understanding of rhetorics), what is implied by the juxtaposition of both (that one would have an equal amount of reasons to discard both ideas, and therefore that one is as stupid an idea as the other), which is, afterall, the purpose of the text as a whole, may have not been succesfully proven. Of course, saying "what you think about rhetorics is stupid", put bluntly, is not an argument and wouldn't convince anybody, but when it's camouflaged in a statement that is, without a closer inspection, perfectly correct, it might pretty much be "absorbed" by the reader unknowingly. This reader, even if not completely convinced by the arguments, would hesitate on questioning them out of fear of sounding stupid - even if he has no rational reasons to do so.

---

ok, this might sound like I'm calling Haus a misguided evil sophist trying to confuse our little innocent minds with a bunch of rhetorics and make us like it, but I'm not, really. My point is that all of us, consciously or not, use rhetoric tricks all the time in conversation, from alliterations to embellish the texts up to hateful phallacies involving bad comparisons and generalizations. (I myself use them maliciously sometimes, even in math tests - saying that the steps that are missing are "obvious" or "trivial" when actually I don't exactly remember how to get to them. Heck, I remember using ambiguity on purpose in tests since 6th grade ^~) You will probably find quite a few in this post, actually (hint: the beginning of this paragraph is one), and they are usually not that "evil" as they are usually thought to be. Of course, when you are in the position of the reader/listener, you should be careful to identify them and therefore escape their influence, but really, if all texts were written in a clean, a-rhetoric language similar to mathematics (which is probably impossible), life would be quite a bore.

I must also disagree with Qalyn on that that "any educated person" would be able to spot rhetoric devices - it appears to me to be more like a competition of astuteness between speaker and listener, even if they have the best of intentions on the conversation than such a straightforward relation. ^^
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:35 / 20.08.02
I was describing a pretty specific argument there, Kase -- that if A) An educated person understands the uses of rhetoric then B) he will recognize it in the speech of another -- but fair enough, you're not wrong. I'll amend it to say that once the "educated person" spots rhetoric, in the more general sense of a pharmakon of speaking, he can no longer trust the speaker.

Q
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:38 / 20.08.02
Both reason and rhetoric were tekne, crafts, but rhetoric was also pharmakon, an art.

It is worth pointing out here that a) the plural of tekne is teknai, b) that is is spelled with a chi rather than a kappa and is therefore technai or, by the new transliteration, tekhnai, c) that pharmakon means drug, cure, remedy, magic potion, detergent, means of production, dye, but not "art", d) that "nature as the Greek philosphers saw it" is a meaningless phrase without some substantiation, e) that "ad hominem" does not mean an appeal to emotion, but an attack on the person advancing the counterargument rather than the argument itself, f) that the argument ad ignorantiam is not, I believe, a rhetorical device per se but rather a logical fallacy denoting a poor argument, and g) that the idea of a 5th-Century Athenian trotting out terms like "ad hominem" has a very obvious problem.

I will, in a grand and perfectly intentional rhetorical flourish, leave others to consider how to react to the following paragraphs.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:00 / 20.08.02
Kase, konversely (see what I did there?), makes lots of good points, the most obvious one (which seems to fall by the wayside rather) being that elements that might forensically or technically be seen as "rhetorical" are woven into our use of language. It's not a question of "identifying them and escaping their influence" or "recognising them and realising that the interlocutor cannot be trusted" - rhetoric is a part of speech, and like all forms of speech can be used for good or ill, well or badly. By the same token, I know I'm being emotionally manipulated when a piece of music switches into a minor key, but that doesn't make the minor key evil...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:15 / 20.08.02
Yep, I was sloppy as hell. Sorry.

I did, however, illustrate what I was saying about rhetoric being untrustworthy. There's a difference between the craft of rhetoric and the "medicine" of rhetoric -- and they did use pharmakon to refer to magical art, the was native americans do in the movies. The myths are full of witches practicing pharmakon, and I'm also thinking specifically of Gorgias. My apologies on the mispellings. I usually leave k for ch because I think it's simpler -- we don't really use the ch any more in English -- but there's really no excuse for the plural error. I was distracted.

Q
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:28 / 20.08.02
We don't use the "ch" any more in English? Very charitable of you to remind me. If we did, it would after all lead to chaos, possibly with gigantic arachnids. "Sloppy"....why is it so hard for people to say "I was wrong" these days? Kids....

The myths are full of witches practicing pharmakon

a) The witches would presumably be practising pharmakeia, and can I please stop having to correct the mistakes you are making in Ancient Greek while explaining why you didn't actually make mistakes in Ancient Greek? It's dispiriting. b) pharmakeia is indeed used by Aristotle (I think) to describe witchcraft or the use of poisons, but is *not* used by Gorgias, although pseudo-Gorgias uses pharmakon in his Encomium to Helen to describe the kairos logos - the selection and delivery of the appropriate argument.

However, he does not mean "art", but is referencing the pharmaka - the healing and killing herbs - used by Helen (see the Iliad thread in Books for more on the numinous status of Helen, IIRC); as a doctor chooses a medicine based on his understanding of the patient, so words and arguments are chosen based on the speaker's understanding of his audience. So, language can in the right hands act on the human soul as a drug does on the human body. But at absolutely no stage does pharmakon mean "art". It is Gorgias' idea of rhetoric as drug that Plato has Socrates refute by claiming that rhetoric only makes the soul *feel* good, whereas medicine makes the body *actually well* in the eponymous dialogue.

The word "pharmakon" also turns up in a related usage in the Phaedrus, but that's Derrida territory and would take us wildly off the point.

This from memory, admittedly, but I think I'd go with mine right now.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:04 / 20.08.02
I didn't say I didn't make a mistake. I said I did make a mistake, but that I knew what the word meant. While I understand your distinctions, I still think "art" is an appropriate substitution in this sense. I don't see where "your" version conflicts with mine. They seem to describe different aspects of the same ... technique?

We don't use the "ch" any more in English?

We're not using it the same way. It wasn't kaos or tcharity, it was hutzpah or Javier, which we don't have letters for in English. Just using k where the sound has changed simplifies the pronunciation of Xerxes and Ceres and so on. Not that I'm any expert on the matter, I just thought it was simpler. Reviewing your items, I see in item b) that there's some new transliteration -- I didn't know about that.

Discussing d) and e) would involve some digression, I think. f) and g) are perfectly right. I take your meaning about rhetorical technique, too.

Q
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:45 / 20.08.02
Schnoogles. Don't mind me. I think I'm pre-menstrual...

(Although for future reference current thought on the chi is, I believe, that at least in Attic it was more like the "kh" sound in pack-horse than the rough aspiration in chutzpah, which is what the new transliteration, although in a very beard-stroky way, is trying to express. Xerxes is a ksi and Ceres is Latin, so I'm not sure what you mean there. Oh yeah, and chutzpah is spelled "chutzpah". And "pharmakon" just doesn't mean art, which is kind of the important bit. There's an awful lot about tekhnai in Plato, and I think you're rememebring it in a garbled way)

To move away from classical slappery, though - I think I see two strands here - one saying that rhetoric is an inevitable part of speech (eager beavers may want to take a look at Menander Rhetoricus' work on epideictic rhetoric and compare it to, say, a guide to how to make a good best man's speech or a book of after-dinner anecdotes), and mastery of rhetorical styles is a method by which language can be used more effectively or emotively (which may include swaying crowds), and another that it is a specific discipline with the intention of "helping the worse argument to defeat the better", and so once you notice that rheotric is being used you also know that the person using it is trying to hoodwink you into agreeing with hir without actually having a better argument; in effect, that rhetoric is a substitute for argument rather than an additional feature to argument.

(And I would humbly offer that Plato had a very low opinion of the people, and would be more than ready to suggest that they could be hoodwinked rather easily, because he was an anti-democrat and disagreed with the idea of popular voting. Gorgias may have claimed that he could train people to win unwinnable debates, but it sounds more like a Platonic set-up)

So what's it to be? Is all speech potentially rhetorical, or is rhetoric something that happens instead of speech, or a specific speech-act?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:14 / 20.08.02
(Xerxes is a ksi and Ceres is Latin, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

Oh, fart. How about Circe? Now you have me all shook. I don't have Xerxes with a ksi in my notes, I have it with a chi -- the swirly x, not the x in a hamburger bun. My mistake? Ye gods, I've bludgeoned people to death with this one. Talk about your rhetorical corruption.

Oh yeah, and chutzpah is spelled "chutzpah"

I wanted to avoid saying that "ch" doesn't sound like "ch". Not the best example, I guess. At any rate the "ch" in chutzpah is not an English "ch" -- nor, apparently, is it a Greek one, which is what I thought it was.

"pharmakon" just doesn't mean art, which is kind of the important bit. There's an awful lot about tekhnai in Plato, and I think you're rememebring it in a garbled way.

I guess that's possible. What I'm remembering is actually something I read a few months ago specifically about rhetoric as magic in Gorgias... or was it pseudo-Gorgias? Would it be fair to say that rhetoric-as-pharmakeia is an art? As opposed to the science of rhetoric-as-technique?)

Can't rhetoric be more than one thing at the same time? It's a set of speaking techniques in one sense and a suspect mode of speaking in another.

Q, who frequently shares Plato's opinion.
 
 
grant
17:58 / 20.08.02
Shape up kids, or here's where you're going.

(Moderator note - This is a link to the University of Berkeley Rhetoric Department, which appears to see rhetoric as a part of interdisciplinary critical study. This feeds back to the question of whether rhetoric is a "valid" or "invalid" form of communication, and how to define those terms)
 
 
Perfect Tommy
00:40 / 21.08.02
Is all speech potentially rhetorical, or is rhetoric something that happens instead of speech, or a specific speech-act?

It appears to me as though one might be able to draw parallels between rhetoric and design (as in design of textbooks, websites, advertisements). A well-designed textbook -- with helpful and clear diagrams, clear chapter and section structure, exactly enough examples but not so many as to confuse -- has the same information as a poorly designed one, but it will be a better teaching tool. The poorly designed one may or may not be better than the author's notes for the textbook, which have no design at all. (Unless one considers a lack of design to be a sort of design itself?)

The opposite, then, would be an excellent, intelligent, funny, memorable ad for a terrible and/or dangerous product. Like, maybe cigarettes?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
00:50 / 21.08.02
...Leading me to think that rhetoric is probably something that is inherently a part of speech, in the sense that refusal to order and structure something is itself a decision on a type of structure and order.
 
 
Kase Taishuu
02:45 / 21.08.02
ok, so we can sum up everything until now as follows:

Rhetorics is a method (possibly inherent to speech) by which one can make a discourse more appealing, pleasant, emotionally engaging etc. by manipulating the discourse's form rather than its content. Cool. Just as design that might make a product more pleasant to the eye may also be used to divert attention from its functional flaws, rhetorics can be used to conceal problems in the arguments and make "the worse defeat the better".

1. that sounds a lot like Jakobson's "poetic function" of language (when focus is on the message itself - present in all sorts of texts, though predominant in literature); 2. most examples of rhetoric devices listed on the link Haus provided some posts ago are also poetic devices; 3. the analogy with music (By the same token, I know I'm being emotionally manipulated when a piece of music switches into a minor key, but that doesn't make the minor key evil) seems to allude to that common ground between poetics and rhetorics - of course I shouldn't feel short-changed if I identify the artifice a poet used to "emotionally manipulate" me, which would be the closest textual equivalent to a musician, but how about the same situation with a politician or a lecturer?

(despite what it might look, the above question is not rhetoric, by the way. I'd also appreciate recommended readings on this parallel and such.)
 
 
6opow
17:23 / 22.08.02
[please note: I'm not entirely satisfied with my following post, but, unfortunately, it appears to be the best I can do at this time]

It seems to me that “argument” is an acceptable label for some set of statements, S, when the conclusion(s) of S contain language which is used in the same sense as within the premises of S. What I mean (in part) is that, within a given discipline, it is easier to identify S as an “argument” so long as the statements in S employ words in both a syntactically and semantically acceptable manner within that discipline.

I would tend to think that argument, in a strict sense, can only occur within some technical language (such as symbolic logic, maths, etc.), and that whenever we attempt to argue a point in a natural language, then we will, at some point in our argument, have to allow for rhetorical devices to do some of the work.

Technical languages appear to have the wonderful property of not really being about anything: as Hilbert remarks about math, “points, lines and planes could be tables, chairs and beer mugs,” the idea is that there doesn’t appear to be actual references to things such as points, lines and planes, and the important part is that “empty symbols are being manipulated on paper” (paraphrasing Hilbert) according to some set of rules. When the symbols are manipulated as the rules dictate, then the argument is good, and when the symbols are manipulated in ways that defy the rules, then the argument is bad. However, we do not seem able to make such an easy parallel when we desire to argue about things that are “real” in the sense that they are experienced by us within the context of the world.

When we want to make something known about our experiences to other people, then we must do so within the structure of a natural language. As stated above, whenever we desire to “prove a point” it appears that we must resort to rhetoric in some manner. The link that grant provides takes us in an interesting direction because of the issues it raises regarding inter-disciplinary studies.

An S that is formulated in a natural language will be seen as an “argument,” it seems, so long as the contents of S adhere to some acceptable usage within the scope of some discipline. This is to say, S will be more readily accepted as an “argument” when the language that is used to express S is such that it conforms to the scope of the discipline within which S occurs. Inter-disciplinary studies pose a problem, it seems, because S will rely on the sense of the words as they occur within different disciplines; thus, some S appear to be more readily labeled as mere “rhetoric” simply because the words used must go beyond the scope of a given standardized usage. Again, this seems to be merely the result of issues brought about by power and authority.
 
  
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