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M'lords, ladies, gentlemen and serfs - what class are you? do you care?

 
  

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Goodness Gracious Meme
19:12 / 16.08.02
This is fascinating. I think Grant's made a vital point with this:

"that we're basically representing the widest possible range of classes/mindsets. That this is what it's *really* like out there in (whatever you want to call) reality."

which counts for any group of people, even though they may wish to see it otherwise...

This is fascinating stuff, thanks people.

And, Haus, I'd have to second Bill's 'huh' around your East Midlands vowels. I've heard them, but they are by no means ever present, and you seem to switch them on and off... consciously or not...

Which brings me to another point. Anecdotally, we seem to be evolving several criteria by which we judge class, in ourselves or others. There's money, own job, parental job, educational standard, and one that particularly interests me - accent.

This because famously in the UK as soon as someone opens hir mouth, we can class define them. And from what we're hearing, in the US also? It's certainly something I do/am guilty of. Am wondering how much physical appearance and personal presentation fit into this. Or after Mary Quant - are duchesses' daughters and shopgirls interchangeable on appearance grounds?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:13 / 16.08.02
Sorry, d'oh. meant ot say accent seems to function as an indicator of class in both the US and UK, but in different ways. Which is about as truistic as you can get, but i find it interesting.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:15 / 16.08.02
Oh and going to start a separate thread on how immigration/ex-pat status affects class, as I htink it deserves one... come one come all, filthy foreigners and their friends
 
 
bitchiekittie
19:32 / 16.08.02
oh, don't be so defensive. It's tiresome

really? well then, I do apologize. however, I personally find your treatment of my post - as the sum of a few selected words, the entirety of the context tossed aside - rather tiresome myself

while I certainly understand your point (and even to an extent agree with it), I didnt contribute to it via my post. I think that if you want to shred posts word by word to illustrate a point, you should please be sure to do it accurately, or else people may proceed to be a bit irritated with your erroneous take on their statements
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:45 / 16.08.02
And it turns out that discussion of the class system is, in fact, all about bitchiekittie.

This is neither surprising nor interesting. Read this slowly and carefully: I was not attacking or "shredding" your viewpoint, merely drawing attention to the different conceptions of the class system across the Atlantic expressed by it. I *am* now attacking your addlepated, attention-seeking threadrot. If you would like to hurl abuse, kindly do so by PM, or in a whole new thread.


Good point about the accents. Bill, Plums - one of the things, certainly for me, that growing up with a scouse-born/Birmingham educated mother, and Welsh-born/London-raised/Oxbridge Academy educated father in the East Midlands meant that my accent has been pretty much bleached - it takes on certain properties either from those around me or from the expectations of those around me, without really having a "centre". I suspect this may be an increasingly common feature of mobile populations, and possibly another way to erode easy class identifiers.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:52 / 16.08.02
I want to be even-handed about this.

Haus and Kittie: You've both contributed interesting points to this thread but please take your tedious feuding somewhere else before yet another potentially productive thread gets buried under bitchfighting. okay?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:59 / 16.08.02
With pleasure.

Reading back over my last post, and specifically the end of my last post, it strikes me that I'm acting like the elision of the ability to determine people's class with confidence is a good thing. I'm not sure this is true, but I do think I believe it.

Which, in a sense, ties into SPB's labels thread - class judgements provide another label and condition reactions. Which is why (draggin things back on topic) the idea of dodgy class assumptions on Barbelith is complicated at least in the case of individual Barbeloids by the fact that cues like appearance, accent and so on are not visible. One could perhaps argue that more punctilious grammar might betray a public-school education, but it's a bit of a stretch to say the least...

Which is something I find very interesting about Barbelith; you have to construct new ways to stratify people; or do you? As a sort of continuation of the "dodgy class assumptions" thing, perhaps...do you think about or assign class to people here? If so, how?
 
 
Ganesh
20:02 / 16.08.02
Mmm... tinned worms again...

I suppose I'm fairly readily locatable within the class system by dint of my profession: 'doctor', like 'lawyer' places me squarely slap-bang in the centre of my own cosmology - either middle-middle or, at a push, upper-middle. Which leads me to suspect that most if not all socioeconomic classification systems were devised by doctors and lawyers...

I certainly don't think of - or try to pass myself off as - working class. My parents, both teachers, were the first generation of their respective families to go on to tertiary education and, as such, seem to have been viewed by their own parents with a mixture of pride and bewilderment - tinged, on my father's side with suspicion (why did he want to get 'above himself'?) In many ways, I think they were the real 'trailblazers', risking a certain amount of alienation. My father, in particular, felt guilty that he'd 'betrayed' his family in some indefinable way.

My mother grew up in a small fishing town in north-east Scotland, and felt constrained and criticised throughout much of her early life. For her, I think, University represented escape - outward and upward - and approval (a 'slap in the face' for those who doubted her) and she was certainly the main force driving my parents' social climb. Growing up, I remember her tense and joyless on visits 'home'; as kids, we loved our grandparents but were affected by Mum's obvious discomfort. As a result of this - and, I think, my own strong sense of feeling 'different' (possibly early awareness of my sexuality) - I'm aware that I (unfairly) mentally associate 'working class' with 'claustrophobic'. No choice, no escape. Guilt, anxiety - keep running.

My situation's complicated, as Ariadne says, by the fact that I'm a Scotsman in London. Londoners aren't really sure how to place me (doctor, previously lived in Edinburgh, non-specific central Scottish accent) and equally, I'm not infrequently disorientated by South English accents. I've recounted several times the fact that my 'gaydar' - normally quite reliable Oop North - is confused by fey, effeminate vowels that turn out to be heterosexual, merely 'posh'. I probably play up the Scottish angle slightly - not in a Billy Connolly manner, but in a somewhat disingenuous 'I'm not English and therefore independent of this legal/class system' way.

(Accents generally encompass a wide range of evoked assumptions about class, background, education, intelligence, sexuality, sexiness - and probably deserve a thread of their own...)

Money is linked to class but in a complex, indirect way - probably filtered through the concept of 'comfort'. Being filthy rich isn't, in the UK, a strong indicator of class, but being 'comfortably' wealthy probably is. I'm not sure; this is difficult stuff to articulate.

As far as Barbelith's concerned, I agree broadly with Grant's view - and spending time on other message-boards has been interesting in terms of seeing us as others see us.

And finally...

ZoCher likes to play up his 'working class roots'. One of our more surreal bones of contention is his claim that I preferentially water the more 'middle class' of our houseplants...
 
 
Ellis says:
20:14 / 16.08.02
I don't know what class I am in, and I don't care.
Actually no one I know outside of Barbelith cares either.
I have never been judged by it; class has never been an issue with anyone I have ever known.

I always thought class was something to with how close you are to the Monarchy- the closer you are, the higher up you are.

Bill mentioned academics being external to the class system (if it still exists outside of the mindset of Socialist Workers and 'snobs') which makes me wonder whether celebrities are also outside of the system.
 
 
aus
20:29 / 16.08.02
I do not water houseplants, be they middle class or working class. As plants, they are intrincically in a lower class than myself and therefore I do not serve them. As far as I'm concerned, they should serve me.

The sexiness of accents is interesting to me. Here in Tennessee, the
Australian accent seems to be considered the sexiest accent available. The locals sometimes pretend that they can't understand me just so they can hear me talk again. Of course, being a Melburnian I habitually speak at 200 words per minute or what might sound like one very long, incomprehensible word per minute to the untrained ear.

On the other hand, I'm also a nasty alien with very dubious educational background ("do people go to school in Australia?"), bad manners and no old Southern money. What's worse, I live in the wrong county. However, if I lived in the right county (i.e., Williamson County), I might be sneered at behind my back by the guys in the football team. I'm not at all accustomed to this class distinction by county.

What I need is a handgun and a honkin' big truck. That would elevate my status considerably.
 
 
Ganesh
20:30 / 16.08.02
I too find Australian accents verrrry sexy...
 
 
Sax
20:35 / 16.08.02
I suppose being a northerner gives me automatic qualification for working class status. Interesting point, here, though, on the professional side of things - we all know doctors and lawyers are toffs, but what about journalists? It's the last professional industry where you can still be working class. Yay for us.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
20:40 / 16.08.02
I'm working class, and I care about class very much.

It's not particularly that I want to, it's more a fact of having so very, very little expected of me for my life - mother was a typist, I was expected to do much the same - that I can't help but feel resentment. In primary school I was incredibly intelligent, but no one seemed to notice or care. I ended up leaving secondary school barely able to count - I went into reverse. I used to share a flat with two friends, and I would be frustrated and, yes, jealous, nearly to the point of tears, when I saw their parents paying their rent and bills, all the financial support they could want, so they could go to university. I don't feel any anger towards my parents for being working class and poor, but it's the unimaginative life I had waiting for me that scares me. Luckily for me I was such a weirdo that I managed to break out of it.

Class in Britain these days not so much a matter of money as expectation, as far as I can see. My viewpoint is incredibly slewed because I have a massive chip on my shoulder. My class held me back in the most important years of my life. How else am I going to feel about it? Ganesh equated 'working class' with 'claustrophobic'. That about sums it up for me.
 
 
Sax
20:44 / 16.08.02
My friends used to sing John Lennon's "Working Class Hero" at me all the time. They thought it was funny. I used to take it as a compliment.

But sfd has hit on an interesting point: a lot of people who are proud of their "working class roots" tend to make the observation from a comfortable middle class position they've carved out for themselves.

"Aye, I'm working class, me. Another Pimms?"
 
 
Ganesh
20:47 / 16.08.02
It's interesting, SFD, that you found the lack of expectation oppressive. As the eldest, only son, I resented (and sometimes still resent) the extent to which I was pushed, as a child, into my current career - by my almost rabidly 'upwardly-mobile' mother. I'm not a 'natural doctor' by any means - left to my own devices, I'd likely have gone on to study English or Art & Design somewhere - but it was impressed upon me from an early age that I was expected to pick a 'profession'.

Greener grass, different shoulder-chips, etc., etc., eh?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
21:02 / 16.08.02
Mother, well educated daughter of a housewife and a seaman in the merchant navy. Pretty much working class background all down this side of the family and proud of it too in the manner in which only a stereotypical northerner can be. My mothers aspirations was probably the beginning of her elevation. Not that she wanted to be a different class, she just wanted out of the council estate and factory mentality. Now a cultured office jockey.

Father, also well educated (pity this thing isn't genetic) so of a research scientist. All of you who use tungsten should thank my grandfather for sorting out that ore extraction kafuffle way back. Long history of who's who on this side of the family which hopefully nobody will ask me keep up because frankly I don't have the mettle for it. Father is now pharmacist and copes well with the trappings of a respected social position. I think he likes the attention it brings.

By default this lands me in the middle class pool. I don't care much for class, and most likely this is because I'm in the position of having the luxury of not having to care. In a social context I can identify as much with he down home blue collars as much as I can with the snooty refinery of the the designer collar bunch. I'm proud of the people in my background because they are/were people that I could respect regardless of their class. I'm not proud of my background though, nor ashamed, because I have no reason to be. Maybe it's responsible for who/where I am now but that's the past and what I care about is who/where I will be and from this foundation, it's me all of the way.
 
 
Persephone
23:02 / 16.08.02
Hoy, did you all come home from the pub and want to talk about class?

Re: "exploded," which is what I came here to post about, what I mean is --well, first, I do think that the U.S. is an Anglo outcome, and sometimes I have the feeling that "American" is a sort of class appended to British class structure. But besides that, in theory, "class" is an ideal alignment of birth, wealth, education, occupation, accent, taste and all those things. If you sort of picture those things as a molecule, they still seem coherent in the British model but somewhat unstuck in the American model.

[I beg the moderators' discretion here. It's the idea of alignment that I want to pursue, but it's late at night and I can't think this all through...]
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
00:12 / 17.08.02
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
Class always gets me worked up.
I consider myself to be working class. My parents were both born poor, tin baths in front of the fire etc. But they do fall into that category of people who became more affluent during the 1960-1980’s period, and adopted many middle class ways, however both would be insulted if you called them middle class.
I am a manual worker in the service industry and from my perspective the worker is fucked. I believe there has been a concerted effort to destroy and debase working class ideals and ideology. One is the constriction of what defines working class, by the middle/upper class media. In this capacity the working class are seen as down to earth types with limited aspirations, whose only outlet is sport or music. Attitude to work is a big factor in deciding who is working class, along with honesty and a sense of being true to oneself.
I would say that from a working class point of view, work is a burden that at this point we have to bear, as opposed to a “lifestyle choice”. I see the middle class as being self serving bastards, although I do have respect for those who rebel against their stereotype (unless its to gain some art school kudos).

I know this post is a bit fucked and incomplete, but I’ve had a very bad day at work and would very much like to kill my manager. I just want to say something on this topic before it escapes. More later
 
 
Tryphena Absent
04:42 / 17.08.02
I find class a bit difficult, not so much where I'd place myself because I'm middle class all the way, no denying it. My mum is first generation english, both of her parents were Polish exiles, they were so displaced from British culture at first and had to rebuild their lives here and I wonder if people can actually have any class while in that situation. On the other hand my dad was working class, got a degree at the age of twenty-eight after my mum supported him on teachers wages, now I guess he's middle class. So actually, after all that confusion and swapping and changing, I couldn't give a shit.
 
 
Rage
06:40 / 17.08.02
I grew up in a suburban gated community that was very Upper Middle Class. 99% Jewish. It was here that I was treated as one of the Lower Social Class by my peers. Cry me a river. At 16 I moved out of home and decided that I was one of the Higher Being Class. This decision may or may not be related to Upper Middle Class isolation.
 
 
Rollo Kim, on location
09:49 / 17.08.02
Working class. Very. But I was considered just a little bit posh because my parents didn't have criminal records and I knew how to read.

The first house I lived in had an out-door toilet and a tin bath. (Seriously). I grew up right where the Midland accent becomes Northern, an area with a higher rate of assaults and attacks than anywhere else in the country. My Mum worked in my Gran's shop, my Dad was a welder when he wasn't unemployed or ill. But they'd take me to art galleries as my Dad's a bit arty at heart - which was maybe the beginnings of some healthy contradictions.

Where I grew up the kids fight with knives and set fire to houses for something to do. You crunch syringes under-foot while you wait for a bus.

I've been unemployed for years at a time, and I'm quite often bruised. I've been told I look like I steal cars for a living.

The vast majority of my family are a mixture of unemployed, imprisoned,sectioned or alcoholic. Most of my 'local' friends look like Begby from Train Spotting, or club bouncers. I've lived in places like Handsworth and Cobridge - I've seen my share of xenophobia, shitty flats, Job Centre Nazis, broken windows, run-ins with BNP types etc.

On the other hand, I have two degrees and I've never been arrested. Don't feel proud or shame - don't see why I should feel either.
 
 
rizla mission
11:30 / 17.08.02
My background/upbringing has been middle-class as fuck, completely and utterly so, somewhere between middle-middle & upper-middle I suppose..

..but oddly, both my parents come from pretty working class backgrounds, and have seemingly pulled off a complete raise in status within a single generation.

Actually, my father's family has always had an odd relationship to the class system I suppose .. in terms of where they live, how they talk, who their friends are, they've always been working class - initially (as in 100 years ago) travelling 'round with the fairground - but what with the nature of the family business (self-employed, running various forms of public entertainment) successive generations have independently become pretty wealthy, often elevating themselves to the status of local gentry (my great grandfather apparently had the first car in town - a Rolls Royce) while still retaining an essentailly working class outlook and social life (to the extent that my dad's still on first name terms with [quote] "the roughest buggers in town" who remember him being on their dads sides in fights 40 years ago), and it's been traditional for 3 generations for the family to spend the money, leaving their children at about the same level they started off from - thankfully not a tradition my dad's continuing..
 
 
Rev. Orr
12:21 / 17.08.02
The fact that it bothers me what class I am now in, that I have a sneaking suspicion I'm in the wrong one, is the clearest indicator that I'm middle-class.

I do think that levels and types of and importance placed on education can be the biggest motivators and facilitators of class change. My mother's familiy are, and have been as far back as they look, solidly middle-class with an entrenched upper-middle-class mindset. On my father's side, things are rather different. My grandfather moved from Scotland to Birmingham shortly after he married and proudly, aspirationally working-class all his life. He fought in both world wars as an NCO rising to RSM eventually. The family story is that he was offered a commission twice and on the second occasion answered "Fuck off, I work for a living". In peacetime, he worked for the same cake company all his career and was a key back-room figure in the local Conservative party. My father felt pressured to 'succeed' through education, took a scholarship to the local public school and then on to Oxford. His parents had never let him pick up a Brummie accent in his childhood and on arriving at university he erradicated the Scottish elements also. So I end up with two teachers for parents, both with non-regional r.p. accents and a belief on education and social mobility that borders on the religious.

As a result of all this, I guess I benefited from the usual lower-middle-class advantages. I followed the academic escalator all the way to Haus's beloved Oxbridge academy and then stepped off. I'm not sufficiently well-versed in modern classification to make easy identification other than through a person's job and that's increasingly innaccurate these days and certainly doesn't work with me. I'd say I was middle-class in my outlook on life and accent. I couldn't claim I was working-class in anything other than my income, where I live and the fact that I pick up any work going to allow me to keep writing and acting. As an ex-historian I tend to think about such things in out-dated concepts, but given the fact that modern working life and practises do not fit the model that a tri-partate class system is based on, does the structure still have any relevance to reality? If journalists, celebrities, academics and actors are outside the class system, hoe many other professions and life-styles are similarly unclassifiable? At what stage are there too many exceptions for us to retain class, as we now know it, as a means of identification or labelling?
 
 
Spaniel
14:23 / 17.08.02
It would seem to me, based on many, many conversations on the topic, that a great number of people desperately wish to be recognised as working class, but are more often than not uninterested in the theoretical and/or political underpinnings of the term. This desire often seems to spring from an identification between working class status and some kind of authenticity; A common definition of the term working class would appear to be something akin to c19 middle class - individuated, industrious, self-made, self-determining - combined with more modern notions of groundedness.

Samuel Smiles would be proud.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:39 / 17.08.02
I like to play up my working class roots, apparently. Well, yes, I must own up to that one. I used to have a huge chip on my shoulder about it and was very quickly and easily intimidated by people whom I perceived to be my social superiors. Fortunately I too was such a weirdo, thanks to David Bowie and to public libraries, that I managed to break out of the claustrophobic Lawrentian environment in which I was raised (just had to or I’d have gone mad). I had also come through the state schools system with a good academic record and felt propelled, because of this, by parents and teachers, to sign up to a profession and “better myself”. The middle class life I aspired to was, however, a bohemian one and I dismally failed to become bourgeois in the way expected of me. My parents wanted me to be a lawyer. I wanted to live in an Iris Murdoch novel.

I left the shale-scarred countryside for the big city and university and came out. These events brought me into contact with many people from different backgrounds from all over the world and I slowly dismantled the chip on my shoulder as I made friends with people, irrespective of their origins. I remained aware of my essential social class but it became more of a badge to wear, with some pride, than any kind of handicap. My accent probably hasn’t changed much and reverts to impenetrable dialect after ten minutes talking to my Dad but I pepper my Irvine Welsh delivery with polysyllables and foreign borrowings. That’s because of my eclectic magpie-like brain, rather than any attempt to disguise my origins.

I did have a problem until my late thirties with big posh venues: hotels, restaurants, even up-market shops. I was always waiting to be discovered not to fit in and to be asked to leave, and there’s a social class /confidence issue there undoubtedly, but I think it also stems from the fear of being revealed as a social leper during my gay adolescence. It’s the same feeling of bluff on the brink of being found out which I’ve had in every job I’ve done. I am good at keeping a level head and just getting on with it, even when I know I'm paddling furiously below the surface, out of my depth. In later life I discovered that this ability to “wing it” is actually a strength and have become more comfortable with it. I have often heard it said that middle class children are brought up to have much greater confidence in themselves, in a broader range of environments. I think this may well be true, as a lazy generalisation, and I would have liked a bit of that when I was younger.

Yes, I am aware of class. I do still give a shit but it’s a reasonably regular bowel habit now rather than neurotic encopresis. I am also very aware that I am a white male, born and raised in the UK, in my twenties before I left full time education, paid for by the state, with clean running water (apart from the recent cryptospiridium contamination), central heating, and a regular wage (for another month… and not one of the majority of the world’s citizens, in whose eyes I would be a filthy Western imperialist plutocrat living very high on the hog.

Like Pearl Jam’s WMA on Vs, “He won the lottery when he was born…”
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:45 / 19.08.02
I'm about as middle class as they come - middle-middle. Father's side: yeomen ('gentlemen farmers') in Nottinghamshire, grandfather and uncle both C of E clergymen, father a computer programmer. Mother's side: obscure until late C19, then probably lower-middle class until my grandfather became an eminent nuclear physicist at which point probably upper-middle, mother now a school librarian, Father and mother met at Oxbridge Academy, London; I also went there. Now faffing around doing nasty low-level media jobs while waiting to hear whether I can go back to Oxbridge Academy, London, in order to escape the whole wretched business by becoming an academic.

I always think of upper-middle as being 'county' families and wealthy professionals - barristers and so on.

Haus's analysis of the class system:

On the middle classes - the lower middle classes were, I think, traditionally smallholders - either small amounts of farmable land or small shops. The grocer is a classic example of a lower middle class occupation. Middle middle class was clerking and business work - businesses at the time tending to be much smaller and with a far tighter concentration of executive power. Upper middle class was professionals (and clergy outside the Lords, I theenk) - doctors, lawyers, military officers above the rank of captain (i.e. those who had purchased their commission) and some other odds and sods, and the upper class were those who held titles and land. However, the late 18th and 19th centuries saw massive accretion of wealth in the hands of industrialists who in the class system stood squarely in at best the middle middle class, hence the vogue for purchasing titles...you probably want to talk to a modern historian on this one. Kit-Cat?

Not actually sure how much help I can be here, but I can certainly try. It is worth bearing in mind that the idea of 'class' is pretty much separate from economic strata of society until the twentieth century; and also that ideas of class have developed differently on different countries (France, for example, very different to Britain in early modern Europe). The idea of class only really develops in the mid-nineteenth century, so it's pretty anachronistic to talk about class even in the time of the Agricultural Revolution.

Society really begins to split out into definable economic strata at the end of the seventeenth century, when the 1690s financial revolution gives rise to speculation and stock-broking - this goes together with a massive increase in urbanisation and urban consumption (not TB). So a 'middling sort' begins to become obvious - not just merchants and yeomen or lesser gentry, but a mobile group of people which could encompass shopkeepers, clerks, financial businessmen, blah blah; and these people, with their addtional economic strength, became capable of actual influence on society and policy. One of the characteristic fears of early C18 society is that of lower sorts of people (belonging to 'the Mob') tricking their way into higher strata of society through appearance - aping their betters, basically. However, the fears of solical mobility disguise the fact that social mobility was a reality - daughters of the aristocracy would frequently marry rich merchants. The professions were slightly anomalous in that they tended to function as a holding-house for younger sons of the aristocracy and gentry (denied inheritance by primogeniture). It's really impossible to talk tin terms of splitting the middling sort at this stage - partly because it was still quite small - but there are the roots of the middle classes.

As the middling sort grows in size it beomes much more important in the life of the nation - George III led a home life according to middling-sort ideals, pretty much, much to the disgust of the aristocracy and of several of his sons - and after the Regency its financial power (due to accretion of land and financial wealth - due, as Haus says, to the growth of industry) was such that it was definitely the most important group in the nation. As the century goes on, wealth becomes more and more important in determining social status, as we can see from novels deploring the rise of the nouveau riche, and industrial barons who - horrors! - actually dared to send their sons to the public schools; it's around this time that we get the idea of 'shabby genteel' - another name for an existing reality, but it is significant in terms of the formation of the idea of the middle class. Marx is responsible for labelling the socio-economic strata as classes, I think. But there were other motivations in social allegiance - education was a very important factor, as it still is.

I think the idea that wealth that doesn't come from land is somehow unclean has been totally debunked now - probably something to do with the decline of the aristocracy as a power base.

Working class comes from the industrial labouring class rather than from peasantry.

Is that any help to anyone?
 
 
Saveloy
12:18 / 19.08.02
I don't know if I'm obsessed by class but I'm certainly fascinated by it. My own theory is that status - which, as a subject, I am obsessed by - is more important to the majority of people (as a means of categorising each other) than class; that status and class used to be more or less the same thing but have gradually moved apart. Class is now a small component of status, and it's importance varies depending upon who you are talking to, and what you are arguing about.

With that in mind:

fridgezilla:

"Being from one class and moving to a different economic stratum doesn't necessarily affect your perceived class, because the signifying behaviour is usually set by then. But your children will likely be different, and if their economic standing doesn't change, your grandchildren certainly will be. The behaviour is what produces the perception but that behaviour is moulded by your experiences which are economically affected."

For me, one of the most surprising things about the thread so far has been the lack of references to what fridgezilla calls signifying behaviour. For as long as I can remember, the primary indicators of a person's class have been not so much occupation, income and location as tastes and habits - the way they choose to spend their leisure time, the way they spend their money, the things that annoy them, the TV they watch*, their hairstyle, the way they eat a boiled egg**. All the things which they would have learnt whilst growing up in a specific class environment. The things that a person will publicly embrace or reject in an effort to move between classes and - most importantly - be accepted by established members of the desired class. All the things people get snobbish about.

I wonder, is it still possible to determine a person's class from such things? Can anyone think of any current examples?

I suspect that the emphasis on status, the supposed removal of class barriers and the access of everyone to the same media is working towards creating a universal set of tastes (broadly speaking, anyway). Snobbishness still exists and always will but it is concerned more with intelligence, ability, wealth etc (all the signifiers of status) than class - "ugh, you're stupid" rather than "ugh you're common". But I could be completely wrong. Whaddya reckon?


* "My mum wouldn't let us watch ITV, because it was common" - a colleague, yesterday
**According to a pal of mine, if you slice the top off it you're middle class, if you smash it you're working class.
 
 
aus
13:06 / 19.08.02
According to a pal of mine, if you slice the top off it you're middle class, if you smash it you're working class.

So, what class am I if I boil six eggs at a time, cool each egg under running water, peel the shell off and pop each of the six eggs whole into my mouth?

And (as a separate question) what if I only eat the whites? And fling the yolks at passing strangers?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:07 / 19.08.02
On the subject of telly, yes, my Dad was very reluctant to let us watch a lot of stuff which he saw as dubious, by which we'd be talking 'low culture' as opposed to 'high culture'. It made me feel a bit of a freak at school 'cos there were shows I hadn't watched and either couldn't talk about or had to pretend I'd seen and bullshite my way through playground banter. We smash eggs in the Posters household though, so clearly there's still room for upward mobility. Christ, the whole egg thing reminds me of Gulliver's Travels. My Grandpa wouldn't allow brown sauce in their house 'cos that was common, apparently!

Me, I'm an inverted snob in that I snobbishly dispise the middle-class background which spawned me and everything associated with it.
 
 
Ariadne
13:12 / 19.08.02
While in a hotel in Germany, we were served boiled eggs. One of my colleagues looked at it, picked up a spoon and then said "What do i do?".
So where does she fit in? An egg-deprived childhood, or do jewish families from Massachusetts always scramble their eggs, or what?
For the record, I biff it gently so it cracks and then slice the top off. Which nicely echoes my class confusion.
 
 
Saveloy
14:09 / 19.08.02
auszilla for dummies:

"what class am I if I boil six eggs at a time, cool each egg under running water, peel the shell off and pop each of the six eggs whole into my mouth?"

I don't know, I'm not really an eggs-pert. Arf!

"And (as a separate question) what if I only eat the whites? And fling the yolks at passing strangers?"

Upper class.


Bill Posters

"Christ, the whole egg thing reminds me of Gulliver's Travels."

Ariadne

"While in a hotel in Germany, we were served boiled eggs. One of my colleagues looked at it, picked up a spoon and then said "What do i do?". So where does she fit in?"

To be honest, I've never heard the egg thing from anyone but this one pal of mine (who had a whole plate of chips on his shoulder, to go with the egg). His explanation was that it was an old working-class tradition to tell nippers to destroy the egg 'lid' to prevent witches from using them as boats. If anyone else is familiar with this so-called tradition, please pipe up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:25 / 19.08.02
[Offtopic]Your friend is, I believe, confused. The tradition is, IIRC, that one should, having eaten the egg, destroy the bottom of the eggshell, so that witches cannot float them in water and then sink them, causing ships to sink.[/Offtopic]
 
 
Saveloy
14:30 / 19.08.02
[offtopic]You're right, Haus. This gypsy story tells it how it is:

http://www.ladyairianna.freeservers.com/id24.htm

and here's a Slavonian version:

http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/eggs.htm#BOAT

Variations on what the witches do with them, but the bit about destroying the larger part of the egg shell (thus allowing for initial slicing of a lid) is consistent. Cuh, I knew he was talking out of his arse. I'm going to have words...[/offtopic]
 
 
Bill Posters
14:35 / 19.08.02
[Suds] Fucking gypsies, we don't want them and their dirty stories round here thank you. [/Suds]
 
 
Mourne Kransky
14:52 / 19.08.02
Saveloy: what fridgezilla calls signifying behaviour

I thought about trying to incorporate some of these class-signifiers in a post but found it hugely complicated to determine which of the ones I recognised in youth had survived.

Occupational signifiers:
I have a white collar job but would probably earn lots more painting and decorating. Have a degree and several other qualifications but over 50% of the population gets into tertiary education these days, so no class kudos there.

House and Garden:
We have lovely stripped floorboards, and carpets made by Indian child-labourers, but few of the artworks on our walls are originals (they're mostly photos and posters gleaned from our travels).

I would say living room or front room rather than lounge or parlour or drawing room. I would say toilet or loo indiscriminately but would likely say bog in preference to both. Nancy Mitford would approve because I'd say napkin rather serviette but I would probably use a square of kitchen roll in preference to either.

I own my own home but not a car. I have a variety of electronic goods to make my life easier and more expensive. Is being online at all any kind of class signifier?

Television watching:
There was a sniffy attitude to ITV in my house too, which persists in my mind to this day (though Channel 4 and cable shows are beyond this tv snobbery). Some of our friends have no tv at all, and those are the very middle class ones. What's more common is to have a small portable tucked out of sight, like us, as if you never really watch tele. See the odd arthouse film, in among the blockbusters, and once in a while go to the theatre, but never the opera or the ballet.

Foodie style:
I cut the top (thin end) off my egg with a knife and scoop the contents out with a knife, sometimes. Truth to tell, I'd rather mash it up in a teacup with lots of salt and butter. I buy food at delicatessens, the mere prospect of which would have curdled my father's stomach. But how middle class is the deli these days? There's a deli counter in all the big supermarkets. Never use supermarkets, mind, but that's probably irrelevant to class these days. Even the queen's been to one.

Eat out in restaurants, too often, even fairly smart ones from to time. More about DINKY lifestyle than gourmet tastes perhaps.

Clothes:
I wear designer label clothing (because the shopaholic elephant is my personal shopper) but this signifies nothing in this age of expensive trainers on babies and Armani frocks down the bingo. Despite the magic labels, I still look more like Johnny Vegas than Gianni Versace.

I still smoke heavily which is probably the one thing on this list which is heading towards real signifier status. Especially as it's roll-ups. But then I have a software millionaire friend who travels the world smoking rollies on the roofs of five star hotels.

Are there any reliable indicators any more? I have a friend who can only relax on an aeroplane when she hears the pilot's name and it's something middle-class like Jeremy or Sebastian. Perhaps we all just have these personal little snobberies now, independently of any societal rule book.
 
  

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