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M'lords, ladies, gentlemen and serfs - what class are you? do you care?

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Goodness Gracious Meme

13:33 / 16.08.02

Curious about whether social class is something that 'lithers are aware of/give a shit about.

What class are you? why? does this match with how others perceive you? Can you spot situations where class has been an issue - in friendships? relationships? work situations? what dodgy class assumptions do we have around here?

Or is this all irrelevant/anachronistic bollocks?

The Natural Way

13:39 / 16.08.02

Very. Middle. Class.

Silver spoon stuff (as you well know, Plums).

Don't much care about class (cries of "of course you wouldn't, caviar-fed scum!") until some out and out middle class art student starts trying to sell me on the idea that they're "working class, maaan..." and gets really upset when I explain to them that there are places where, if they said that, they'd get beaten up. S'happened more than once in the past couple of years and it grates like fuck.

13:47 / 16.08.02

What class are you? Demigod.

why? Why not?

does this match with how others percieve you? I before E except after C.

What dodgy class assumptions do we have around here? That it doesn't matter. Or that it does. Um... Anyway, both assumptions are incorrect.

Goodness Gracious Meme

13:51 / 16.08.02

oops, thanks m'lud, will sort that. 'nother question, as i'm on a class kick:

do you think class positioning (yours or in general) is static, or are you aware of situations where you move across 'class boundaries' - ever been in situations where your class marks you out?

13:57 / 16.08.02

I think the immortality sort of marks me out as different to mortals.

On the other hand, my lack of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence can mark me out as different to the gods. In that comparison, my potence, science and presence don't seem so potent, scient or present.

14:02 / 16.08.02

Hmm, interesting question which I was thinking about the other day. I came to the conclusion that I didn't know what class I am. I am a white 'public' school-educated posh git but I live in a council flat in what is supposedly the most crime-ridden area of South London and have on occasion had to step over used syringes upon leaving my front door because I have an official income of about £7000 p/a.

One day I was walking down a street in London and I passed two policemen. Just as I had done so, I heard the immortal words, "Oi you! Yeah you! Where the fuck are you going?" As ever I was scared shitless and braced myself for trouble. I turned round, took off my beanie hat (aka burglar hat) and in my normal voice, asked how I could help the officer in question. He immediately became rather less hostile. I explained that I was viewing a flat in the area with a view to moving there. At which point he said, "Well, welcome to Chiswick." They didn't make me turn out my pockets or run my name through the PNC or any of the things they should have done and I am as certain as I can be that it was my middle-class accent which saved me from a search. Rather bloody handy too, under the circumstances.

I asked them if there was somewhere to eat around here and they said Burger King. I went there and as I was eating they came in and made a point of checking the toilets, so maybe they'd thought I was a rent boy cruising for business. Anyway, whatever they thought, the point is I managed to convince them I was a good citizen purely by opening my silver-spoon stuffed mouth. So I guess I came top of the class war then.

Dunno... one sociologist has decided that 'modernity' equals identity based on race/class/gender and 'postmodernity' equals identity based on other factors. For what that's worth. But no, I don't think 'class' is an entirely useless concept, just trickier than it was seen as being in the heyday of Marxism. Yes, it is fluid and multiple and basically messy.

14:26 / 16.08.02

Hm.

This is a question like asking a fish to describe the water he lives in, to me. I'm having a very hard time.

Well, I grew up lower middle class. Working mom, unemployed alcoholic dad. I remember that a key fantasy of mine as a kid was about going to summer camp, which we could never afford and I could only read about.

But I don't feel underprivileged at all --to tell the truth, I feel pretty top-of-the-heap most of the time. I guess I have intellectual privilege, even though I only went to state university. And my life is a life of freedom, partially attained by cleverly marrying a man from the summer camp class.

During the period when I was working in a coffee shop, I worked with a woman who was in training at the corporate coffee office; she had to work one day a week "on the front lines" in the actual shop. It turned out she went to a high school that was a rival of mine, that we had referred to as "the white school." And her family had had a summer house in Wisconsin. But then she had gone to a second-tier state college, and then dropped out to get married. Plus the coffee gig was a serious thing to her, whereas I was just slumming. Anyway. I am trying to illustrate something here, which is what it looks like when two people are simultaneously condescending to each other...

Is this at all helpful? What is "social class"?

14:34 / 16.08.02

Working mom, unemployed alcoholic dad. I remember that a key fantasy of mine as a kid was about going to summer camp, which we could never afford and I could only read about."

That seems like it might have been working class, depending on how your mother was employed.

Didn't the term "middle class" originally mean business proprietors and perhaps certain professionals? I think some people, although they are not business owners, might be considered to own their means of production in terms of education and certification. Aside from that, many people who might describe themselves as "middle class" are more accurately described as "working class".

yawn - thing's buddy

14:49 / 16.08.02

foreign parent class

14:50 / 16.08.02

Well I grew up working class, or more accurately I am the son of working class immigrants which is actually quite different, and I think that I've become middle class.

Naive kid that I was, I only really became aware of class when I went to Uni. For instance, any discussion of backgrounds would almost always lead to an unsightly gush of middle class guilt. We were all kids then, of course, but it did politicise me to the extent that I noticed how unaware of different lifestyles people were. I was just as narrow minded, of course, but I had the advantage that I was mixing with different sorts of people.

Is it a big issue? Well, yes. For instance there is a tendency for those higher up to equate wealth with class in a way that ignores oppurtunity. Being poor doesn't of itself make you working class, though you are much more likely to understand it a little better.

14:53 / 16.08.02

Didn't the term "middle class" originally mean business proprietors and perhaps certain professionals? I think some people, although they are not business owners, might be considered to own their means of production in terms of education and certification.

Really? Does this check out with others? I would really love to have a better idea.

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:06 / 16.08.02

yeah, where'd'you get this from - fascinating.

A trend that certainly applies to the british middle class is it's massive expansion in (post-war?) British society - the middle class covers a multitude of sins! I have a feeling this has something to do with the way in which the job markets and opportunities have changed - more service/clerical work as traditional heavy industries decline? more and more women in the workforce? How do jobs equate with class nowadays?

Eg a barrister/judge=upper (middle) class. pretty obvious. what about a call centre worker? an accounts clerk? Hey Bill - don't academics come outside of the class/job axis? in that category with lords, nuns and lunatics

or is that wishful thinking?

And I'm glad the 'immigrant question' has come up, as I think this feeds into class, especially in countries like the UK and US which have vast immigrant populations. Has immigration affected your parents class positioning?

And so as not to be accussed of feeding voyeuristically off other people's stories (who me?) this is me:

daughter of immigrant parents who back home would be upper-middle class (high caste,both parents/their generation are private school/university graduates etc not wealthy, but well-connected!) but brought up in a very working class area as Indians arriving here had very little money, and being outside the system, unable to read the class indicators so as to pick a 'nice' area. Am aware of two very different codes , one middle class aspirational/opportunistic/long term planning, the other working class/get a job/money/sex/house now... probably end up as lower middle class but swing wildly. but through postgrad education/work mixed generally with 'posher' people. Now on state benefits - dole scum.

and confused!

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:09 / 16.08.02

Oh yeah, parents both prof. but mum's PhD didn't qualify as Indian so she supply taught and loathed it.

And I'm class-obssessed, which I think ties into the lower middle thing: desparately unsettled, aspirational etc. 'hanger on at the big table' etc

15:25 / 16.08.02

yeah, where'd'you get this from

My thoughts on the definition of "middle class" come from vague recollections of studying sociology and politics. Don't quote me on any of this as it was so long ago that Fredrick Engels was a guest lecturer.

15:34 / 16.08.02

Yeah - was going to say, sounds like the old French bourgeoisie/British 'middling sort' of the C18, rather than the C19 middle class a-la Marx...

15:41 / 16.08.02

Bill - don't academics come outside of the class/job axis? in that category with lords, nuns and lunatics?

Indeed, Plums, it's a case where Weber's 'status' notion is more useful than Marx's 'class' analysis. That is to say, for some godunknown reason, people imbue me with a certain amount of status 'cos I am an academic type, yet thus far no uni work I have done has ever paid minimum wage. I could get more behind a bar. And there are virtually no permanent contracts anymore. My Papa is proud of me doing academic stuff, and somewhat embarrased by my brother, because he is a humble firefighter, a job which involves him getting dirt on his hands. Saving lives while doing it is simply no excuse, not in the Posters household. What Papa fails to realise is that my bro has a job for life with a pension. I on the other hand have less security and a damn sight less money than I did five years ago. Like vicars, academic types get respect (and more fool those who give it to us, 'cos they have little idea what really goes on! Sokal hoax, anyone?) but fuck all money, at least since Thatcher got her hands on the system.

My brother gets more women after him than I do too 'cos he's a dashing hero and I a professional nerd.

*bursts into fit of sibling jealousy*

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:43 / 16.08.02

Bollocks - just lost a lengthy post.

On the middle classes - the lower middle classes were, I think, traditionally smallholders - either small amounts of farmable land or small shops. The grocer is a classic example of a lower middle class occupation. Middle middle class was clerking and business work - businesses at the time tending to be much smaller and with a far tighter concentration of executive power. Upper middle class was professionals (and clergy outside the Lords, I theenk) - doctors, lawyers, military officers above the rank of captain (i.e. those who had purchased their commission) and some other odds and sods, and the upper class were those who held titles and land. However, the late 18th and 19th centuries saw massive accretion of wealth in the hands of industrialists who in the class system stood squarely in at best the middle middle class, hence the vogue for purchasing titles...you probably want to talk to a modern historian on this one. Kit-Cat?

Moi-meme, I am apparently a "gentleman". I don't think this has ever affected my life one way or the other. Slotting more generally into the middle class (mother a teacher, father a whatever the Hell fathers do), I have a profound ambivalence about this as my grandparents were clearly working class - a skilled labourer in a margarine factory and a draughtsman for the Great Western Railway. The fact that successiuve generations can rise so quickly through the class system (without necessarily substantially materially improving one's circumstances along the way) is probably a very good argument for its increasing redundance.

I think that Ross' argument that class is at this point ("this point" being 1954 or so) primarily a socio-linguistic distinctor fairly persuasive, in which case my flat East Midlands vowels have me utterly fucked from the start, and quite deliberately so.

15:49 / 16.08.02

Your flat East Midlands vowels?!

15:51 / 16.08.02

er, I dunno. suppose Im a no class beyatch. and I mean that in the worst possible way

parents? mom a 16 year old advanced student, dad a drug using alcohol abusing womanizer who ditched us both before I was 2 and died in a drunken auto accident when I was 4. stepfather a lifelong carpenter, my mom a jack of all trades, from electrician to high end secretary, armed with a couple of college courses through the years. suppose we worked our way to from barely above poverty level to lower middle class. Id say since Ive left about a decade ago theyve managed middle middle class.

my (quite large) extended family ranges from very poor to fairly wealthy, from criminals and addicts to hardcore religious fanatics and snobs.

personally Im a high school dropout, some college, single mom of a kid I had at 20. I have sufficient job skills to keep a respectable job, and I make do. I live in a decent, clean and fairly quiet neighborhood. my kid has everything that a little girl could possibly want, and I save a bit for her future.

I manage to be quite snotty in certain social situations. but I confine that reaction to the behavior of individuals rather than the fiscal or educational situation, which probably has a lot to do with my diverse family

16:03 / 16.08.02

Ross' argument that class is at this point ("this point" being 1954 or so) primarily a socio-linguistic distinctor fairly persuasive - Haus

Without wanting to be too aggressive about it, I think that this is something that the privileged like to tell themselves so that they don't have to worry about inequality. For instance, if you look at education there is a large class component. More generally, a person's class is strongly correlated to the class of their parents. Its not as rigid as it was, and there has been a widening of the middle class to a very large extent. Class is still apparent, though perhaps talking about the "class system" recalls certain anachronisms that don't apply any more.

Hmmm. Just realised that I am only talking about the UK. Not sure how things compare in other countries.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:23 / 16.08.02

Class is funny because it embraces several ways of defining itself. From the point of view of a genuine aristocrat, for example, there are really only two class - aristocrats and everyone else. 'Middle class' is just a way of separating the poor lower class from the rich lower class.

To the middle class kids I was at school with, accent defined everything. They wanted to sound 'street', so they dropped the 'h' and spoke a mixture of Arsenal football, Camden barrowseller, and Brixton bouncer. To the kids of lawyers and doctors, my voice made me 'posh'. That and some moderately notorious relatives, I suppose.

My family in Cornwall are middle class, but they function almost like a feudal squire would have: anyone they employ long term can expect to be taken care of in the event of illness, to have help trying to get their kids to university, and will in turn be loyal, discreet, and put up with the fact that we are all clearly insane. Loyalty bound up with land and responsibility.

What am I? I'm a middle class man - though that ties into the discussion of labels in another thread, doesn't it? - in that I'm educated and well-off, and I work in an informational industry rather than with my hands. On the other hand, I sell my product rather than my time, and I work creatively. Does that make me a proletarian?

16:46 / 16.08.02

Hmm. I'm ... confused. With a well-dodgy chip on my shoulder.

I grew up in smalltown Scotland and was supposedly 'posh' because I was swotty and spoke, well, more clearly than other people - it was the same accent, just fewer glottal stops, I think. My sister wasn't seen as particularly posh, so it was definitely just a name-calling thing rather than a real label.

Went to uni in Glasgow, sounded like everyone else, then moved to Edinburgh and was in for a huge shock. Suddenly I was common. Laughably so, in some of the circles I unfortunately found myself in. Though I didn't hang around them for long.

So - very much a working-class-determined-to-do-well background, the first generation to go to Uni, all that stuff.

I was about to say I don't fit in in working class Scotland any more, but that's rubbish, actually - I still fit in perfectly well in the kinds of working class families I grew up in, the ones that want their kids to go to Uni and and do well.

And it does matter, unfortunately. I know that I get treated better when I put on my posh(ish) anglified accent, though I can't quite manage Bill's, I'm afraid! It wouldn't work in Scotland so well, but people here (London) don't seem to know where to 'place' a Scottish accent in the same way.

And I look around at work and cringe because the accents of the sales team differ markedly from those of the journalists.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:52 / 16.08.02

Well, what is interesting (although not really surprising) is that BK has chosen to interpret the question in terms of wealth, which may be taken to suggest that class in the US is all about money; she moves from terms like "poor" and "very wealthy" to terms like "lower middle class" and "middle middle class" in a way that the UK system would not necessarily permit, if such a thing there be.

Likewise, I am unsure if LA's argument is that class is a major factor in education or if money is a major factor in education - need more. How does class affect education, from your insider's perspective?

17:01 / 16.08.02

I noticed that too. People here in the UK don't chance class quite so readily, it's certainly not just money.

Education would be the one thing that I'd see as helping people move, though I'm not convinced it actually does that - maybe just lets you pass more easily!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:09 / 16.08.02

I think I'm middle-class, but all the other middle-class people I know seem to want to disown me.

Folks: Both from decidedly working-class backgrounds. Both left school at 15 without quals. Mum became (and still is) a cook; Dad worked his way up the greasy pole to become a systems analyst. Both try very hard to be middle class, but they've never got the hang of it.

Me: This is where it gets tricky. Homeschooled from the age of 5, which would normally be a dead cert for middle classness, but I don't think it counts if you end up being taught by a dyslexic cook until you're 11 (at which point I took over my own education, relatively unencumbered by parental interference).

Did my GCSEs a year early (+ 100 middle class points) but I did them at a technical college (-50 middle class points) only took 4 (-50 middle class points) and cocked them up a bit anyway (-50 middle class points). I compounded this by staying on at the tech and doing a diploma that nobody's ever heard of instead of proper A-Levels, and by ending up on the jam roll for three years after I finished.

Initially I did office-junior shit for a living (+10 middle class points) but then found that light industry and janitorial work suited me better (-10,000 middle class points). I've never risen above this sort of level, despite my stint at Uni (no middle-class points there because I was a mature student), nor do I expect to any time soon. I'm currently putting earrings in boxes for £5 per hour-- is that working class?

And if one more arts graduate tries to convince me that they're working class and I'm not, I'll rip out their fucking septum.

17:16 / 16.08.02

Err, am I being paranoid MC or do you mean me?

Cause it's a valid point. I really don't know what I am any more. I'll go back to my bowl of Thai mango and rice salad, and think some more.

17:17 / 16.08.02

I'm not sure it has so little to do with money in the UK as it is sometimes claimed. I think the two are intertwined in popular perception. If you grow up in an environment that corresponds to having money and taking advantage of it, you will end up being a native of the class appropriate to that level of wealth, because you'll associate with others of that class, learn behaviour from them and so on. Your family background will influence this but not completely.

Being from one class and moving to a different economic stratum doesn't necessarily affect your perceived class, because the signifying behaviour is usually set by then. But your children will likely be different, and if their economic standing doesn't change, your grandchildren certainly will be. The behaviour is what produces the perception but that behaviour is moulded by your experiences which are economically affected.

17:17 / 16.08.02

Actually, that was a dumb thing to say - thai rice salads are pretty well available across the UK and not exactly posh. hey ho.

17:41 / 16.08.02

Well, what is interesting (although not really surprising) is that BK has chosen to interpret the question in terms of wealth

what the fuck?

I spoke as much in terms of education and such. what else should have talked about?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:57 / 16.08.02

Ariadne: You're being paranoid, a natural and healthy disposition and the sign of an alert mind.

I have no recollection of your ever attempting to pull class. Your septum is safe with me.

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:58 / 16.08.02

BK: Oh, don't be so defensive. It's tiresome.

The point was that the British class system has far more complexities and ramifications, to the point that the UK and the US are probably answering two totally different questions here. In the UK, one can be penniless and uneducated, and still be a member of the "Upper Class" through familial entitlement and history. There are two very different structures in play here, and yours was the first Americana post to bring that out.

That is what is interesting, although not surprising, about your contribution so far.

18:09 / 16.08.02

I think they may actually be the same structure, only the American one is a lot more exploded.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:21 / 16.08.02

"Exploded", Seph? How so?

Certainly I'm interested by the "survivals"....old money, the daughters of the Revolution...I guess one interesting question would be whether an old family is as good as old money...and, for that matter, how "old" old money actually is. Is it measurable in generations, centuries?

18:27 / 16.08.02

Multi-classed. Grew up familiar with hunger, then was in private high school & Daddy drove a Benz (much to my disdain at the time). He was self-employed from my teen years on. Immigrants.
Half of my mother's family were Boer rednecks, the other half were German aristocrats. Go figure.

Today: I'm a journalist from long line of journalists. I make about the same amount as an elementary school teacher, but I have a graduate degree and have been to black tie parties where caviar was served. I'm not blue collar by a long shot, but neither am I a corporate executive type.
Blue collars probably assume I'm fey, over-liberal, over-educated, and a bit superior - slumming. White collars probably assume I'm grubby, unambitious, and a little too radical ("You actually put old food in a compost bin? Doesn't it smell? Or do you just not notice it around your house?"). Heh. Probably "slumming" again. Hmph.

I don't know what class I am. Probably right down the middle, I guess.

I try not to care about class, but still have an instinctive distrust (and indeed loathing) of Republican/country club status symbols & signifiers. Either inherit a fucking castle or else go back to the cotton mills, you nouveau posers!

I think there are dodgy assumptions around here (to answer the abstract's question) about the country club/Oxbridge set and also about the less-educated, less-polished less (dare I say it?) politically correct people who may wander in.

But I think the dodgiest of all class assumptions here is also the heart of all dodgy class assumptions: that we're basically representing the widest possible range of classes/mindsets. That this is what it's *really* like out there in (whatever you want to call) reality. Because socially, you know, like seeks out like - it makes communication easier if you speak the same language, after all. Which means any social group tends to homogenize along those class/background lines.....

18:56 / 16.08.02

I think if you want an example of the "explosion" of American class, you could do worse than watch "Caddyshack" or any TV biography of anyone who had anything to do with Palm Beach.

Class is not as much to do with having money, here in the US, as *how long* you've had money. And even then, the signifiers about hand work vs. mind work also come into play.

I make a lot less than the plumbers and electricians I've hired at various point along my career, but they're definitively blue collar in a way I could never be. I like to think I could pass (I went to hunting camp as a kid, I camp out rather than go to resorts, and occasionally slip into what passes for a southern accent here in Florida), but given any attention at all I'm sure I'm pretty damn white collar through and through. My parents, having "posh" South African accents ("Hey, are y'all from England? I just luuuve that acsaint!"), were immediately thought of as being upper crusty.

In Palm Beach, mega-rich Donald Trump wasn't allowed to join some of the best clubs at first because he's a bit common and crass. So he just started his own, much to the old-timers' chagrin. Now, he's a little more "established," but still I doubt he's in-in.

He talks all wrong. Which brings up one big difference between UK and US, I think - while regional accents might bear on class in the UK, the class accents vary by region in the US. A posh Virginia drawl might be seen as a signifier of old money in Atlanta, but sneered at as backwoodsy in Los Angeles. Because they don't know no better.

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