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Ariel Sharon: you evil little fuck

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
20:16 / 04.12.01
I was going to call him a pitiless genocidal monster a while ago, and then Nick kind of talked me down.

You know, I think I was right first time, so...



"Hi, I'm Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and I'm grinning so much at the thought of dropping bombs on Palestinian school children!"

So it would appear that now America, the UK and the so-called War on Terrorism has set a terrifying precedent: if individual terrorist acts are committed against one nation by individuals from another, then the first nation has the right to bomb the fuck out of the second.

So far in the last two days Israel has destroyed Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's helicopters and the runway in Gaza (cos they wouldn't want him going anywhere...), a security compound in Gaza, and a police station and part of Arafat's HQ (they couldn't hve been trying to kill him, could they? noooo...). I only mention these, rather than all the civilians who've been injured and the two killed so far by bombs dropped on Gaza City(full story), because Sharon, backed by Bush, has claimed that he'll stop these strikes when Arafat cracks down on Palestinian terrorists. So, I have one question for Ariel Sharon:

How the fuck is he supposed to do that while you're BLOWING UP HIS POLICE FORCE, you appalling shit of a man?

Meanwhile: Bush says American troops may be used in strikes outside Afghanistan, Putin eyes Chechyna hungrily... I hate this world.
 
 
Frances Farmer
20:31 / 04.12.01
Here's what pisses me off -- they specifically picked the nastiest photos they could've to represent Arafat.

Look at this.



I could be wrong, but I really think CNN is completely fucked and deliberately manipulative.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:35 / 04.12.01
I actually think this is just because we in the West have been generally programmed - intensely since 9/11 - to see anyone who looks Arabic as evil...
 
 
Frances Farmer
20:37 / 04.12.01
Sure.

But I still think photo belongs in An "Ahh-nold" trailer.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
20:57 / 04.12.01
Case filed against Sharon

And-

Case filed against Arafat

 
 
The Knowledge +1
09:17 / 05.12.01
I don't thinnk that photo anywhere near sugests that he's an evil cunt.

Personally, I blame Bush, the downfall of all men...
 
 
Dao Jones
09:17 / 05.12.01
Sharon just had a little head to head with W.

What's the betting he was asking permission for this crap?

Jesus.
 
 
01
09:17 / 05.12.01
Doesn't this latest attack make you think that they've finally decided to pull out all stops and just say fuck it here's World War III?
ugly, ugly, ugly...
 
 
Hush
09:17 / 05.12.01
Isn't Sharon still a wanted terrorist since his youth in the 1950's. I am fairly certain he is one of the last living representatives of the gang who ripped the state of Israel out of the Palestine Protectorate, and was the Osama Bin Laaden of his day. Only successful. And got away with it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:17 / 05.12.01
quote:Originally posted by zerone:
Doesn't this latest attack make you think that they've finally decided to pull out all stops and just say fuck it here's World War III?

Yeah, I've been worrying about that one... but I think anger- or rather indignance, rather than blind rage- is a better response than fear.
Funny how until a few days ago, all the UK papers were well into the idea of Sharon being a git... SUDDEN about-face on that one.
War on terrorism? War OF terrorism, more like.
And yeah, I was kind of disappointed when he didn't get his full roasting in "pitiless genocidal monster of the week" too, simplistic though that may be as a response.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:17 / 05.12.01
I believe Sharon was responsible for some of the atrocities carried out in the Lebanon.. more info as I find it.

Worth noting that Shimon Peres, the most respected member of the Israeli govt (in international terms) is not at all happy with this and has been talking about taking his Labour party out of the coalition. This would mean that Sharon and Likud would have to cobble together a coalition of right-wingers - which they would undoubtedly be able to do - but I don't think it will do their international relations any good at all.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:17 / 05.12.01
From here: quote:The victory of Likud leader Ariel Sharon over Labour leader Ehud Barak in Tuesday's prime ministerial election is a turning point in the political situation within Israel and throughout the Middle East. It presages an escalation of the conflict with the Palestinians and threatens instability and renewed warfare in the region.

Sharon speaks for the most right-wing elements within Israeli society. His name arouses indignation among the Arab peoples and his military record defines him as a war criminal. Sharon was in command of a force that in 1953 raided the West Bank village of Qibya, killing more than 60 men, women and children and dynamiting dozens of houses, a school and a mosque.

In 1982, as defence minister under Menachem Begin, Sharon sent the Israeli army into Lebanon. He laid siege to the civilian population of West Beirut, killing thousands, and ordered Palestinian neighbourhoods in southern Beirut to be “utterly destroyed”.

In September the same year, Sharon was the architect of the massacre of between 800 and 2,000 Palestinians at Beirut's Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps. He ordered the Lebanese Christian Falangist militia to eliminate any resistance and allowed them into the Palestinian camps. Israel's Kahan commission of inquiry ruled in February 1983 that Sharon bore “indirect responsibility” for the massacres, and he was forced to resign as defence minister.

Sharon, nicknamed “the bulldozer”, was directly responsible for instigating the present conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and the loss of 400 lives, overwhelmingly Palestinian, with his provocative visit on September 28 last year to the holy site at Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif.

Ever since the Oslo Accord in 1993, Sharon has positioned himself as an outspoken, hard-line critic of the efforts to achieve a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians. He has consistently advocated more aggressive and brutal military and police measures in the Occupied Territories, and implied that only a military defeat of the Palestinians can provide security for Israeli Jews.

An approving article in the Wall Street Journal by Seth Lipsky notes, “One of Mr. Sharon's compulsions is the order of battle in the Middle East. This refers to the array of forces that stand to become engaged in a war. I have not had a conversation with him over the past 20 years in which he has not dwelt on the battle order.”
Bloodthirsty little bastard.
 
 
penitentvandal
09:17 / 05.12.01
Does the man have an email addy? i realise it won't do much good, but I just want to go on the record as warning the fucker that if World War Trois kicks off 'cause of his dickheaded millitary strategy I will spend eternity choking him with his own entrails in Hell.

And I don't think Arafat looks evil in that photo. He just looks <gallows humour> like he's trying to figure out how to get a lift home. </gallows humour>
 
 
sleazenation
09:17 / 05.12.01
you can always check out his entry in the electronic intifada
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:17 / 05.12.01
This article from today's Guardian is really interesting on Sharon's motivations in the current conflict, and Israeli views of Arafat.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:08 / 05.12.01
This dichotomy Sharon = "evil", Arafat ="good" disturbs me as I think both are equally culpable for the violence occuring presently. Sharon has definitely been both PERSONALLY guilty of atrocities and has ordered them in his capacity as Prime Minister, but Arafat is no saint, at all, at all.

Even if you are an Arafat supported, you have to agree with these points of fact:

1) Arafat supported and planned violent atrocities in the name of liberation, as the head of the PLO.

2) Arafat has done damage to the peace process by allowing groups like Hamas and Jihad to have a large say in the Palesitinian government.

3) Arafat supported the actions of Saddam Hussein during the gulf war.

4) and, most importantly, either (A) Arafat has no control over the group he claims to represent, the Palestinian "street" , or (B) he tacitly condones the "martyrs". In either case, he's not someone who can guarantee a peace agreement or even a bloody 24 hour cease fire.

Flame away.
 
 
Dao Jones
12:25 / 05.12.01
Not about to argue with that, but it's not relevant. Gerry Adams, Anwar Sadat...it goes on. Loads of bastards managed to get past the business of hate and do something right, for whatever reason. Sharon could do it, too, but he has no desire and no incentive. He's not evil, he's complacent and, what's worse, he's an idiot.
 
 
sleazenation
12:36 / 05.12.01
or perhaps

4 C Arafats ability to effectively police his people is severly undermined by the continued bombing of palistinian police stations and incursians into palestinian land.

in return.
1) Arafat almost undoubtedly planned violent action in the name of palestinian liberation, but he never planned a massacre, especially not one of the order that Sharon is guilty of.

2) Yes including hardliners in the palestinian gov. does hinder progress of peace, but without there presence any - 'peace' that results isn't really worthy of the name. As we have seen in Ireland and elsewhere, all elements of the political spectrum need to be included.

3) I have no evidence of this, quite possibly it is true, the enemy of my enemy...etc.

In broad terms I agree with you. All Goodie Vs. Baddie dichotomy are guilty of massive over-simplification, but I still feel that Arafat is a necessary element of the peace process.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:40 / 05.12.01
It should also be pointed out that nowhere in this thread has anyone claimed that Arafat is a saint, or anything like it.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:09 / 05.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
It should also be pointed out that nowhere in this thread has anyone claimed that Arafat is a saint, or anything like it.


I think it was implicit in several posts that the current situation is entirely Sharon's fault. You also implied that the reason the Palestinian militants aren't being arrested is that Arafat's police force is being destroyed. That's an incredibly fatuous answer. Arafat could have arrested these people long ago, if he really had the power/gumption to do so. I think the current situation has illustrated what a tenuous grasp he has on the Palestinian public.( I also fear that anyone who replaces him would be more militant and even less likely to further the police process.)
 
 
sleazenation
13:15 / 05.12.01
regardless of the ability or otherwise of the palistinian police to arrest palistinian extremists the killing of said police is hardly going to help speed their capture is it?
 
 
Naked Flame
14:55 / 05.12.01
ah, but you're missing the point: in the long term this action will make extremists very much easier to catch.

This is because there will be a lot more of them if the situation carries on like this. Law of averages, baby.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
20:11 / 05.12.01
I think the real problem here is that it's gone on too long to be solved politically. There's too much hate floating about on both sides that even if Sharon and Arafat managed to draw up some agreement that was technically a fair solution to the current situation, neither population is likely to accept it. Maybe in a few more decades everyone will get tired of the fighting (if there's still two sides left), like how Ireland seems to be resolving itself. I'm not gonna hold my breath.

So the state of Israel should never have been created, or at least not in the way it was, but it's been around long enough for people to start calling it home and now both sides seem to be doing their best to earn boy scout warmongering merit badges. Frankly, i can't see a solution. I don't approve of the attitude of picking the most photogenic side and hoping it's all over before Afghanistan dies down, but i can't think of anything better either. Arse.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:42 / 05.12.01
If your idea of a political solution is that without anything changing, both sides sit down and negotiate then no, there is no political solution. On the other hand, if the US withdrew their economic support for Israeli aggression, the balance of power would shift dramatically. Assuming the US also stopped preventing the UN doing anything about Israel, a relatively peaceful resolution doesn't seem particularly implausible - indeed, there have been plans for equitable territorial divisions for decades, but the US-Israel alliance has ignored them in favour of expansionism.
 
 
MJ-12
20:44 / 05.12.01
Arafat's support of Iraq was not so much due to Iraq's opposition to Israel, as Kuwait's long term treatement of Palestinians as 3rd class citizens. Although they didn't hold citizenship in the kingdom. It's largely believed by the wonks that's Arafat's subsequent renouncing of terrorism was the result of his having realized that he'd finally burned the last of his bridges (Egyt, Syria, Saudia Arabia, etc), and a military defeat of Israel was not in the cards.
 
 
Naked Flame
20:48 / 05.12.01
quote: I think the real problem here is that it's gone on too long to be solved politically. There's too much hate floating about on both sides that even if Sharon and Arafat managed to draw up some agreement that was technically a fair solution to the current situation, neither population is likely to accept it.

sorry morlock... I don't think this is good thinking. If it's gone on too long to be solved politically, is it therefore going to be solved militarily? Somehow I think not. The Israelis can't take over the land without inspiring resistance, and the suicide bombers can't drive out the Israelis.

The reason we aren't seeing a political solution is because Sharon is into war. He digs it. He probably jerks off to Guns 'n' Ammo. Look at his background and look at what he's doing now. By contrast, whilst Arafat has always been involved with men of violence, he's willing to talk. You see him talking or asking for talks the whole time. As to populations accepting solutions... until the guns stop they aren't being offered any solutions to accept. You can't burn your bridges before you come to them.

Watch the erstwhile victim don the jackboot and then define the term 'cycle of violence.'

(curious snippet I discovered today- the Israeli government helped fund Hamas in its infancy, gambling that the best way to undermine the politically motivated PLO was to fund mosques, and support the religious organisations that wanted to build them.... see, the US aren't the only ones who build their own enemies.)
 
 
sleazenation
09:29 / 06.12.01
I also think its a dangerous fallacy to view the northern island peace process as a natural organic event growing out of a mutual realisation of the futility of continued violence.

that is manifestly not the case. Peace is a thing that has to be fought for and the enemy is seldom the person who disagrees with you but the person who thinks you are not going far enough...[/LIST]
 
 
Dao Jones
09:29 / 06.12.01
Morlock: "this has gone on too long for a political settlement"? And tell me, how long is too long? How long is long enough?

This 'cycle of hate' people are so fond of invoking is horseshit. It exists because it is expedient, because it appears to a bunch of violent fuckers on both sides to be more fun than actual work. Take that away, and amazingly, (vide N.I.) it gets real quiet.

Thank you, the US and Russia, and before that, the Brits and just about every other stupid bastard with an Empire.

The history of the Middle East was not one of Arab/Muslem vs. Jew until comparatively recently. We did that little favour.

Sleazenation: "peace has to be fought for" - well...yes but. Military/strategic thinking, even metaphors, may not be useful. Peace has to be achieved, sought, struggled and sacrificed for. About the only thing you can't do is fight for it. Sounds obvious, means more.
 
 
Hieronymus
09:29 / 06.12.01
Anyone else find the last quote to this in today's Associated Press a little funny?

quote: Norwegian Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik, who met with Bush on Wednesday, told reporters he gave the president ``fresh messages'' from the Middle East: Arafat's letter plus word from Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon that Israel had ended its retaliatory strikes on Palestinian targets.

In a telephone conversation earlier Wednesday, ``Sharon said he had no intention of attacking Palestinian targets more, and for the last 26 hours, there has been no attack,'' Bondevik told journalists on the White House driveway.



Psshaw. Sharon a hardliner? If the people only knew him for the pussycat he is.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:04 / 06.12.01
Arafat has placed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of Hamas, under house arrest in Gaza. Palestinian police and hamas supporters have been confronting each other violently, with at least one death reported.

Story here

What do people think about this? Arafat grasping at straws? A "divide and conquer" move from the Israelis? A positive step to reducing violence? Appeasement? It seems like a huge development to me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:32 / 06.12.01
I'll take Door Number 2. Arafat's back is against the wall, and he has to do something to stall further Israeli attacks, possibly specific attacks targeted at him personally. Unfortunately, this will only increase public disorder amongst the Palestinian public, with whom (I *think*) Hamas are more popular than Arafat anyway.

And of course, Sharon knew this. He must know that he's put Arafat in an impossible position: if he doesn't comply, Israel can claim a mandate for further military strikes; but if he does, I'm sure Sharon will just increase the demands, until it reaches a point where Arafat will be toppled if he does comply... and then if Hamas are in charge, Sharon can probably get away with all-out war...

This guy really took notes on how the Americans handled Afghanistan, didn't he?
 
 
MJ-12
11:38 / 06.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Clever Clogs Todd:
Arafat has placed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of Hamas, under house arrest in Gaza.
<snip>
What do people think about this?

My understanding is that Yassin is a quadroplegic, and doesn't really get out much anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
This guy really took notes on how the Americans handled Afghanistan, didn't he?

Other way round, I would think. Sharon's long standing demand for seven days of total quiet, has been so utterly unreallistic it boggles the mind.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
15:33 / 06.12.01
Hang on, while I catch up.

Crunchy: Sure, without the support of the US and others, the whole thing changes radically. But even if this happens, I'd be surprised if Sharon and Arafat can sell any agreement they reach to their respective peoples, most of whom will have been fighting and dying for as long as they care to remember.

Flame On: Don't apologise, I'm here to learn as much as anything else.
I never said I approved of a military solution. I'm disgusted by the way every time a Palestinian suicide bomber goes off, or someone takes a few pot-shots at an Israeli, the next thing we hear is tank shells and missiles shredding Palestinians.

But I see Sharon as an example of the sort of person who's been figting for so long he won't accept anything but a victory. Though I could be giving him too much credit, who knows.

As for erstwhile victims, show me a Palestinian or Israeli who isn't a victim in some form or another, then we'll see.

sleazenation: I'm not saying the process grew out of the realisation, only that the realisation is what's allowing it to move forward. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself well.

Dao: I'll try to elaborate. A political solution would be a compromise between two mutually exclusive objectives, a result that I think would be unacceptable to the people driving this conflict (yes, that handful of violent fuckers) given the number of people who have died so far. A number of people are driving this thing because their parents/grandparents were involved in this fight, or because friend and family have been hurt/killed/whatever in the fallout. That's what I mean with too long.

Sure, there'll be a couple of psychos who're having fun, there always are. But I think it's incorrect in a whole bunch of ways to say that it's only the nutcases keeping this going.

As a conflict drags on with no real gains made by either side (which I don't think applies here, but does apply in N.I.), more people will get tired of the fighting and the pain, and start to look for a more peaceful solution. The extremists lose support, and eventually the politicians can start to suggest compromises without having to check their cars for bombs every morning.

I think that covers it. Keep it coming guys, I haven't had to think this much all week.
 
 
Enamon
15:37 / 06.12.01
I don't understand Israel's problem with Arafat. The only reason he "represents" Palestinians is because Israel decided that he should represent the Palestinian population. The Palestinian Authority is greatly disliked by the Palestinian population. They are seen (because they are) as corrupt officials using their elevated social status for political gain. They do very little if anything for the Palestinians. This leaves a representation vacuum for the Palestinians. This is why more and more of them are turning to terrorist organizations for help. They see them as Robin Hood types because they're the only ones doing anything about Israeli occupation and they're the only ones who actually do anything to help the Palestinians.

So what should Israel do to stop these terrorist attacks? It should fill the representative vacuum by starting to represent Palestinians. A good first step would be making them equal citizens. Of course Sharon and a good lot of Israelis do not want to see Palestinians to get any power as this threatens their power and pseudo-Zionist dreams. If Palestinians gain power Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. Of course a Palestinian state would solve this problem but Sharon and other types still see such a solution as a weakening of Israel.

Pseudo-Zionist? Well, from what a rebbe told me the Moshiah (Messiah in Hebrew I believe) has to arrive first before there can be once more a state of Israel. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that this is what original (religious) Zionism was all about.
 
 
Enamon
15:53 / 06.12.01
Interesting article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article/0,2763,605806,00.html
quote: Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians

Robin McKie, science editor
Sunday November 25, 2001
The Observer

A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.
Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away.

Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that questions Biblical dogma.

'I have authored several hundred scientific papers, some for Nature and Science, and this has never happened to me before,' said the article's lead author, Spanish geneticist Professor Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, of Complutense University in Madrid. 'I am stunned.'

British geneticist Sir Walter Bodmer added: 'If the journal didn't like the paper, they shouldn't have published it in the first place. Why wait until it has appeared before acting like this?'

The journal's editor, Nicole Sucio-Foca, of Columbia University, New York, claims the article provoked such a welter of complaints over its extreme political writing that she was forced to repudiate it. The article has been removed from Human Immunology's website, while letters have been written to libraries and universities throughout the world asking them to ignore or 'preferably to physically remove the relevant pages'. Arnaiz-Villena has been sacked from the journal's editorial board.

Dolly Tyan, president of the American Society of Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics, which runs the journal, told subscribers that the society is 'offended and embarrassed'.

The paper, 'The Origin of Palestinians and their Genetic Relatedness with other Mediterranean Populations', involved studying genetic variations in immune system genes among people in the Middle East.

In common with earlier studies, the team found no data to support the idea that Jewish people were genetically distinct from other people in the region. In doing so, the team's research challenges claims that Jews are a special, chosen people and that Judaism can only be inherited.

Jews and Palestinians in the Middle East share a very similar gene pool and must be considered closely related and not genetically separate, the authors state. Rivalry between the two races is therefore based 'in cultural and religious, but not in genetic differences', they conclude.

But the journal, having accepted the paper earlier this year, now claims the article was politically biased and was written using 'inappropriate' remarks about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Its editor told the journal Nature last week that she was threatened by mass resignations from members if she did not retract the article.

Arnaiz-Villena says he has not seen a single one of the accusations made against him, despite being promised the opportunity to look at the letters sent to the journal.

He accepts he used terms in the article that laid him open to criticism. There is one reference to Jewish 'colonists' living in the Gaza strip, and another that refers to Palestinian people living in 'concentration' camps.

'Perhaps I should have used the words settlers instead of colonists, but really, what is the difference?' he said.

'And clearly, I should have said refugee, not concentration, camps, but given that I was referring to settlements outside of Israel - in Syria and Lebanon - that scarcely makes me anti-Jewish. References to the history of the region, the ones that are supposed to be politically offensive, were taken from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, and other text books.'

In the wake of the journal's actions, and claims of mass protests about the article, several scientists have now written to the society to support Arnaiz-Villena and to protest about their heavy-handedness.

One of them said: 'If Arnaiz-Villena had found evidence that Jewish people were genetically very special, instead of ordinary, you can be sure no one would have objected to the phrases he used in his article. This is a very sad business.'


 
  

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