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Kicking ass (Kicking ass!) Kicking ass is whut we do...

 
  

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Professor Silly
15:17 / 08.08.02
I'm right with you Deric--if I don't see some positive changes here in the next four years I might just leave too.

The image of "America" as a big dumb giant tickles me deep down. As an "American with a University education" I'm appalled by the people around me. Yes--a lot of them are fat. Most of them are poorly educated. Some of them worship hatred. The fact that America ranks as the "richest country in the world" and yet "we" have one of the crappiest education system among the "civilized" countries...the fact that "we" have a useless public health care system...the fact that "we" consume without regards to supply...it all leaves me very disheartened.
...and don't get me started on "Capital Punishment"...which the rest of the "civilized" world has seen fit to abolish....

The point being that most of the disagreement here boils down to semantics. "America" does not mean the same thing as "Americans." "America" as a whole does things I don't like...while "Americans" sit and watch it all happen on tv.

I can say it 'cause I'm one too. By the way, I've never heard of this country singing ass, nor his song, nor do I care about him. Country music seems to best represent the things I hate most about my home.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:31 / 08.08.02
Right on, brother. I fucking hate all those fat stupid hicks too.
 
 
Rev. Orr
08:35 / 09.08.02
Sing it, sister. That's our song.

I would like to draw people's attention to some of the songs sung by popular performers in Britain during WW2.
Grey Area

Are you seriously comparing the loss of life (on all sides) in WW2 and the seemingly endless day to day death, with the 11/9 incident? On a more relevant note, try comparing the long list of songs released over here since the 'Troubles' with the American response to their terrorist attacks. 'Give Ireland back to the Irish' may be the aural equivalent of dunking your head in a bucket of broken glass and molasses, but jingoistic it ain't. 'Forgotten Sons' is hardly a ringing endorsement of sending in the paras. I don't recall any songs racing up the British charts demanding that we 'bomb the micks back to the stone-age'.

I'm not attacking the American people (most of whom probably have never and will never hear this song), merely criticising a vocal and significant minority whose primary response appears to be one of indignant affront rather than empathy, pain or sadness.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:46 / 16.08.02
I have to say that I'm completely in agreement with t.o.d.d. about a lot of the misdirected complaints/sneering about "Americans" that does emanate from (can't speak for the rest of Europe) the British media and some people here. For three main reasons:

1) It accepts the uncomplicated myth of nation states as actors in the world arena... Chomsky has a good quote about this ("all things are about Chomsky, Homer"), but to summarise: there are inequalities between the privileged and the un-privileged in both powerful wealthy nations and less powerful, poorer ones. Whilst I think there is such a thing as *complicity* in your government's actions, I think it's also important to remember that the American working class/poor are as much victims of a government they didn't elect (and previous ones which they might have) as are the poor peoples of other nations. See 3).

2) It completely overlooks British/European complicity, past and present, in the injusticies that the elites running the current global superpower have perpetrated and continue to perpetrate. Not to mention the fact that when Britain was the global superpower, we gave everyone else a good face-raping for our own profit and pleasure, a fact that shouldn't be forgotten and which goes to indicate that this is the way the global superpower tends to act as a rule.

3) It's particularly fucked-up the way the British middle-classes (eg the media, most people on Barbelith) single out the American working class/blue collar workers/rural workers/poor as the imagined worst examples of jingoism, ignorance etc. This is a fairly common myth with regards to the working class in the UK too. In fact, what is fairly demonstrable is that the elites in both countries (government, mainstream media) are in favour of state terror, imperialism, etc - how the American people really feel about it, or rather how they might feel when presented with certain information in a way not camouflaged by doctrines cooked-up by the middle and upper classes, is not as easy to ascertain. This doesn't seem to stop the British middle & upper classes from sneering at the allegedly uncultured, overweight, country & western loving rednecks - but it ought to give us pause for thought.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:22 / 16.08.02
I'd go with what Flyboy says... only for a much simpler reason (though I do get all his too)- when (and this happens to me in, well, I would say everyday conversation, but the phrase "conversation every day" happens to sum it up better, and is truer)- I have huge problems with America. (Great idea... but still in its infancy. If it can carry on past the "bolshy teenager" stage, it will achieve great things, and possibly become what it already assumes it is- the bastion of civilisation before which everyone else will say "whoah, that's cool... let's do THAT!")

BUT- (I know this phrase usually precedes a polemic, but I assure you, this time it doesn't) one of my best friends is American. And so unlike US foreign policy.

Being anti-America('s current foreign policy) doesn't mean you have to hate Americans, anymore than thinking Sharon's a twat makes you anti-Semitic.

Personally, I think the English (of which I am one) have a fuck of a lot more to answer for, in terms of setting all this shit up in the first place.

Now, bigoted twats (from whichever country- believe me, I grew up in Somerset... cue music from Deliverance), I must admit, I am prejudiced against them.
 
 
Bill Posters
10:45 / 16.08.02
Thanks Stoatie and Fly, for being voices of reason as usual and countering some of the hatespeech and sloppy thinking which we had to endure above. My ten pence worth is that I have a suspiscion that certain people in the UK are revelling in this opportunity to spout outrage at the behaviour of "those ghastly Amerikkkans" precisely because it displaces guilt, real or imagined, about what 'we' have done and are still doing. I bet the Germans are doing the same. It's a 'Yay! Look there's an evil nazi empire that not us' thing, basically.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:05 / 16.08.02
It's not inconsistent to criticise the current actions of the USG (which could still be changed) as opposed to the actions of the British, Dutch or indeed Roman empires.

What is inconsistent is to nationalise the issue, assume that individual citizens are part of the nation as a historical entity regardless of what they did or do, when speaking about the US, and not do the same when speaking about the UK. But I don't think that's ever something that any sensible person should do, nasty propagandist attitude.

The British Empire was not "us". The actions of the current UKG are not "our" actions. There's a certain complicity in benefitting from the unethical behaviour of one's government, but it by no means implies personal responsibility.
 
 
Rev. Orr
12:35 / 16.08.02
And thank you Bill (may I call you Bill? My apologies Mr. Posters) for avoiding any inflammatory hatespeech yourself and refraining so admirably from the gross over-simplification and tenuous tele-analysis that so grieved you earlier in the thread. Obviously this whole farrago is entirely due to white man's guilt and our obsession with fallen empires. Nothing to do with the song lyrics and associated rhetoric which triggered this topic and are a matter of record.

A nation is capable of entertaining more than one thought just as its people are not of one homogenous political opinion [/stating the blindingly obvious]. This does not invalidate discussion and even criticism of a jingoistic meme which shows little sign of abating nearly a year after its genesis. Yes, the UK has/had troops in Afghanistan. Yes, we'll probably be complicit in any military action in or over Iraq. Yes, we probably sold a goodly proportion of the weaponry used in any recent or future conflict. Yes, British Imperialism has a lot to answer for. This justifies describing the bombing of innocent wedding guests as "kicking some ass" how, exactly?

The folly of ascribing characteristics, opinions and political beliefs and aims to a nation as a whole has been pointed out on numerous occasions. I'm just as offended, usually more so, when the bigoted evolutionary throw-backs start singing "No surrender to the IRA" at England football games. It's not based on nationality, class or history, just a triggering of my rusty twat-dar.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:45 / 16.08.02
Does it get anyone else that the US government are arresting supporters of al Quaeda and sticking them in an internment camp in Cuba. Apparently they will not be released until the 'War Against Terror' ends, it's just that this isn't like any other war, it's not even been clearly declared and I don't really understand how they're going to know that it's ended. No wonder pro-bombing music is being released... there's something so hazy about the whole situation.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:00 / 16.08.02
That's not entirely true, Janina. Some of them are being returned to their home countries. For torture.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:23 / 16.08.02
Orr, dearest, you are welcome to call me Bill. I would however prefer you not to insert words (or indeed anything else) into my mouth. I did not say the whole thing can be reduced to white man's guilt, nor that it is justified to describe killing wedding guests as "kicking ass", and you know that perfectly well.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
04:09 / 17.08.02
Well won't that be nice for them. Perhaps now t.o.d.d., knowing what you do, you will explain to me how you define a war, what makes this a war rather than anti-terrorist action and exactly how, not knowing exactly what makes this a war they will ever release these people. I'd also like you to understand that I'm not only criticising the US, being English I'd like it known that if this was a mostly British action I'd dislike it and I don't enjoy the support we're giving to it. However I am not going to agree to the idea of internment camps where people are held without access to lawyers or visitors.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:41 / 17.08.02
I don't actually think t.o.d.d. is either... I read his post as "dark humour based on disagreement with the concept", more than anything.
Although I could be horribly wrong...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:15 / 18.08.02
I'd like to point out here that Bruce Springsteen is not the jingoey flag-waver most people think. Ever listen to the lyrics of "Born in the USA"? It's about a guy whose life is ruined by a dirty war. They play it at football games and so on because no one actually hears it any more. One of life's yummy little ironies. If Bruce is preparing an album about the current situation, I would expect it to describe the American experience in all its ambiguous, dangerous, and seductive glamour -- and the gutters are as glamourous in their way as the heights.

More generally, I think that for anyone who doesn't live in the US or is not some sort of expert on the US to comment on what Americans are like is foolish, not least because such a person doesn't know the half of it.

This "country" singer (I put it in quotes because, originally, country music was protest music) is clearly some sort of ass trying to cash in. Anyone who buys his album is also an ass for mistaking commercial exploitation for unity (a common mistake here, lately). But I also think that, to paraphrase Thucydides, you can't have an empire abroad and a democracy at home. I don't see why you'd blame the subjects of an empire for not understanding what's going on outside the empire. It's not like we're free citizens, not like you English. We can't even elect our own leaders any more, for chrissakes.

Q
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:37 / 19.08.02
Thanks Qalyn for making the point I forgot to, I just got distracted because I had no idea what 'BitUSA' was actually about, I just knew that Ronnie had tried to claim it as being supportive of his right-wing views because of the chorus but never listened to the bits in between.
 
 
gridley
19:55 / 19.08.02
Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up


Born in the U.S.A., I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A., born in the U.S.A.


Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man


Born in the U.S.A....


Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man said Son if it was up to me
Went down to see my V.A. man
He said Son, don't you understand


I had a brother at Khe Sahn
Fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone


He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now


Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go


Born in the U.S.A., I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A., I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A., Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A., I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:59 / 19.08.02
If only it wasn't for the music and the singing, I'd love Springsteen. A bit like Billy Bragg.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:41 / 19.08.02
'Born In The USA' actaully makes the exact point I was trying to convery a few posts ago, much more poetically: the working class in the USA are as much victims of US government policy as anyone else...
 
 
Fist of Fun
07:19 / 21.08.02
Alright, no point in replying to any one post since there are multiple ones on each point.

The thread is about how frighteningly jingoistic America is - as exemplified by the recent chart success of what can only be described as a jingoistic song. Well, duh! Of course a large, successful, powerful, confident country is jingoistic. I have yet to find an example of such a country in history that was not - if I am wrong here, please give me an example.

It's nothing to do with American national characteristics - of all the countries in the world it has the greatest homogonisation of racial groups. (And yes, there are clearly difficulties in integration for some of them, but this is a relative test, not an absolute one.) The point is - this is human nature. I guarantee if Britain were as powerful as USA and were the subject of an attack from the outside, then something along the lines of "Rule Britania" but with some lines aobut the SAS would leap up the charts. If you think that's not the case, anybody remember Portillo getting a standing ovation at the Conservative Party conference when he was in government (something to do with Defence I think) and his statement:
"Three letters strike fear into the hearts of (foreigners, or something to that effect): SAS".
I mean, the man's a government minister! And there was another one from another government minister (I forget which one now) explaining why Europeans did better at exams. "They cheat". AAAAARGH!

When Russia was a superpower it claimed the west was decadent and evil and morally and (when they possibly could) genetically deficient.
Germany used to claim the same. And Rome when it was the superpower. And China, Japan, Britain...

It is nothing to do with Americans -v- the world. It is everything to do with human nature and America just happens to be the superpower at the moment. I have no doubt in 200 years when (due to global warming) the Empire of Iceland finally takes its historically justified place in world affairs they will be shouting about "The genetic inheritance resulting from eating herrings explains why we are richer than you, and why you should follow our example, which is why we can bomb you if you don't."

I suspect it is because:
(i) There is a human tendency towards meeting any challenge with aggressiveness, whilst at the same time attempting to justifying oneself morally / claim to be in the right.
(ii) It's a lot easier to do this when your group/gang/country is the most powerful - or to put in reverse, it's almost impossible to do this when you are the weaker party who has to use brains not brawn.
(iii) This doesn't mean that all Americans are like this, just as not all Britains are liberal. Just that all humans (statistically averaged over the population) have similar tendencies but they are subject to disimilar external stimuli.

Except the Danes, who are clearly superior. You lot just haven't realised this yet.
 
  

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