BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Health and gender

 
 
w1rebaby
23:09 / 04.08.02
Relating to a Conversation topic... what are your experiences of differences in health treatment relating to gender (perception)?

It's often said that men are less likely to go for medical advice based on their symptoms. Is this true? Is it the case that men are discouraged by doctors from doing so by a general assumption of "deal with it, you're a man"?

If you're a woman, how much do you feel that female-specific issues are dealt with on the same basis as they would be should the same symptoms happen to anyone regardless of gender?

Basically, differences in treatment in healthcare based on your gender, they go here...

I'll contribute in a bit but I'd like to see what other people have to say. Is there anything you think would be different if you were seen to be a (wo)man?
 
 
Ganesh
23:29 / 04.08.02
I'll respond to this properly in time but I'll say straightoff that I think the 'deal with it, you're a man' vibe comes less from doctors, specifically, than from society in general. That particular theme still permeates everything and everybody, and I think you're as likely to project those assumptions onto your doctor (who has, after all, an average of six minutes within which to assess and address your problem, so has a limited window within which to present a suitably 'taking it all seriously' demeanour) as your doctor is to actually hold them.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:47 / 04.08.02
I've had doctors that varied from the authouritarian to the sensitive, but it is hard to separate those elements influenced by gender from the rest. Moreover, many women can experience a dismissive attitude from their doctors that seems to belie the notion of better health treatment.

I think that Ganesh is right in saying that this is an issue for society at large. The sad thing, to my mind, is seeing how certain attitudes get internalised. The emotionally stunted male stereotype is surprisingly hard to escape, even if one is aware of it. So a lack of sympathy is only part of the reason that men don't go to doctors.
 
 
w1rebaby
09:38 / 05.08.02
the 'deal with it, you're a man' vibe comes less from doctors, specifically, than from society in general

I agree (and sorry if it sounded like I was meaning doctors were where the assumption was coming from - I meant a general societal assumption, including with the patient).

Sure, I think this whole issue is more about gender roles in society than specifically health professionals (though they're of course part of society themselves). What I'm interested in is the way these assumptions feed through into healthcare, if at all.

May have skewed this by emphasising "differences in treatment" but I was trying to get personal experiences.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:24 / 05.08.02
ok, i'm trying to write this and not make it a rant, but this issue is something that's affected most of my life, so i can't promise anything.

i think there is definately an unwillingness for men to get medical attention. perhaps this is down to the very old fashioned view that boys don't cry? my experience of men when they are ill, however, is that they do make a godawful fuss - punching walls because of a night time coughing session, constant whining for sympathy. a bloke at work came down with pleuresy and had two or three weeks off, with a huge fuss made of him when he got back - i'd just suffered the same condition but got myself some medication and made the flight to america i was booked on. but generally men seem to want to suffer at home.

maybe they've got the right idea: i'm tired, really tired, of not being taken seriously by doctors. one of most enduring memories of childhood was seeing my mother, delirious with menstrual pain, month after month, and being told by successive doctors that it was all in her mind. granted, that was a while ago (early 1970s to mid 1980s), but it's only now, after 20 years of being told to 'take an aspirin' for the same thing, that i'm finally being listened to and having tests. but that was only after taking a big overdose of over the counter painkillers and passing out. about ten years ago, as i've discussed on barbelith before, i was terribly ill - some of my insides tore and i was screaming in agony for about three months. on my first visit to the doctor, he examined me and started running around, making calls in another office. after seeing a consultant i was taken in for an urgent operation, and during it i was diagnosed with crohn's disease. i wasn't told - when i had recovered from the op, i asked them what was wrong with me. they lied. i only found out six or seven years later when i asked to see my medical notes. would a man have been told told a chronic and incurable condition was just a little problem caused by 'straining on the toilet'? i really don't know.

as for the mental health system, i'm not the only woman i know who's basically been told that they're 'a bright girl and so shouldn't be having these kinds of problems'. any of you barbemen been called a 'bright boy'? in your mid twenties?

phew. made it without ranting too incoherently. basically i think a lot of people are treated badly by the medical profession - too many forget their patients are real people, who are hurting, confused about why they're hurting, and scared, and need and deserve to know exactly what's going on with their bodies.
 
 
that
13:51 / 05.08.02
I've also had problems approaching this topic without just getting incredibly angry, at my treatment, at the treatment of women I know, and about all that I've read about women and the health care system - like Emily Martin's 'Woman in the Body', which I recommend.

I've not had anywhere near the just surreally hellish experiences that sfd has had, and that many women have had, but I'm still pretty pissed off, and I do see some of this stuff as gender related. I have also been told, at the age of nearly 22, 'You're a clever girl, why do you do this to yourself?' - unless my psychiatrist is labouring under the impression that I am a parrot, or a dog, I find that quite offensive. I've also been told to basically stop whining and adapt, more times than I can count, and booted out with an appointment in six weeks and no help other than 'you're probably your ideal weight - just try and eat 1,000 calories a day and try not to take laxatives', however hard I try and explain that I am seriously feeling like I can't cope. So the lack of sympathy thing is fairly obviously not just directed at the male...hence sfd being told to take aspirins for debilitating period pain, for one thing. We are women, hysterical, low pain threshold, must be exaggerating. The fact is, I've met very very few women who made anything like the fuss to which they were entitled, however ill they were.

I also find myself being terribly 'English' about mental health - it is very hard for me not to downplay how bad I feel - perhaps this is a societal thing that has as much impact as the gender-related stuff?
 
 
Ganesh
14:59 / 05.08.02
Again, I'll reiterate: I think attitudes within the (mental) healthcare system reflect those of the rest of society, rather than defining them. If you feel your doctor fails to understand your self-harming behaviour, this may well be - at least partly - because doctors operate within a larger society which finds self-harming behaviour difficult to comprehend. I think also it's not a one-sided problem: we have a tendency to project certain qualities (paternal, maternal, authoritarian) onto doctors, and this creates an ambivalence which is easily roused to anger if they then do or say (what we perceive to be) the wrong thing. I'm interested in whether the quality of this ambivalence varies according to the gender of a) patient, and b) doctor.

I really don't want this to become a non-specific 'why doctors are crap' vs 'why patients are unrealistic' thread. As a male doctor, I find it incredibly difficult not to become defensive and irritable in these sort of thread - even without knowing the specifics - because I know how thankless and unrewarding the job can be.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:24 / 05.08.02
I can certainly understand the anger that Cholister and sfd express here. My own experiences have been similar (having my asthma diagnosed as hayfever and left untreated for fifteen years, having my epilepsy repeatedly mis-diagnosed as "panic attacks", not being advised that I had a heart murmur for a couple of years after it was spotted, etc).

However, I would dispute the idea that men always recive better medical treatment and more support when ill from society at large than women. I believe that society permits men to become ill provided their condition conforms to accepted stereotypes: the 40something CEO with a dicky heart, or the younger man with a sports injury. Anything else and you're on your own, buddy.

Some men, of course, are prone to making a meal out of minor ailments, but I've seen one or two women make at least as much fuss. Having watched my partner deal stoically with his severe asthma, and still get treated as a "whiner" or a hypochondriac by some people, I can't support the "all men are babies" viewpoint.

As to mental health: while I'm all too familiar with the hideously dismissive treatment meted out to women, I'd suggest that men face a certain degree of prejudice based on gung-ho macho stereotypes. Whilst it might be deemed OK by society at large if a man suffers (for example) a stress breakdown triggered by work, I've noticed a certain disdain for men with mental health needs-- especially clinical depression. Some of these prejudices manifest as a reluctance on the part of the patient to seek help, but I've also watched male friends come up against a brick wall when they finally do seek help. There's an assumption that if you're a man then you just don't have emotional problems, full stop.

In general it seems that women face one set of stereotypes (women are always sick anyway, women's health problems are trivial and irrelevant, women are hysterical and prone to hypochondria, women don't need to be given information) whereas men face another (real men don't get ill, if they do get ill they're not supposed to complain, ergo any man complaining of ill-health is seen as weak).

In health matters as in pretty much everything, sexist and misogynistic attitudes affect both men and women (though perhaps not equally). In the final analysis gender stereotyping is an insidious toxin; while the effects may vary in nature and in severity, it poisons us all.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:50 / 06.08.02
"what are your experiences of differences in health treatment relating to gender (perception)?"

this is actually an impossible question to answer. i cannot tell if my experiences (with crohns and in the mental health system) would have been more positive if i had been male - how can i? i am certainly aware of being kept in the dark, patronised, and not taken seriously by many doctors. would i have been treated this way if i was male? i can only guess.

i should also add that my mother had a hysterectomy no more than a month or so after a new doctor - a wonderful and progressive german woman who tried acupunture on me for my menstrual pains - appeared on the scene. the practise i'm a patient at now has maybe five doctors, all of whom i've seen for problems both physical and emotional and my experiences with them are totally positive. believe me, i do appreciate the good doctors.

it has occurred to me that now i'm older i get taken more seriously - so perhaps that is more important than gender? - my father went to a doctor on friday because he was experiencing double vision - and the doctor sent him away, telling him it might clear up on its own. i talked him into seeing another doctor and he did; the doc has booked him in for urgent tests at the local hospital. so what was that about? could it be that the first doctor considered my father, at 62, was just a silly old man?

and ganesh - i can understand you feeling defensive about threads like this. we're unlikely to ever have a 'yay for doctors!' thread on barbelith, so i suppose it's inevitable. i think i often have expected too much of doctors. i don't understand why doctors and psychiatrists appear to be so flummoxed by stuff like self harm, but that's another issue, and as an ex-self harmer, i suppose it is rather easier for me to get why others do it.
 
 
that
08:08 / 06.08.02
I have to say this, and then I am ducking out of this thread for good.

Actually, I am pathetically grateful whenever a doctor listens to me or treats me like an intelligent human being (and not in the patronizing, 'who's a clever girl then?' type way). But it doesn't actually happen that often. Re. the attitude towards self-harmers - if psychiatrists are looking at self-harmers in much the same way as the rest of humanity, with as little understanding and empathy, then there is not much hope really, is there? Whatever the gender of the self-harmer, it is not exactly encouraging...

I'm not happy with the treatment I am getting, so my response here is influenced by that. But I still think the whole thing is really fucking depressing, and I had to say so.
 
 
Ganesh
13:23 / 06.08.02
Well... I'm not even gonna try to explain, argue, excuse or apologise for everyone's apparently poor interactions with doctors in the past. Just a couple of points, very briefly:

Medicine, however we try to pretend otherwise, is an inexact science - in the vast majority of situations, there is no unequivocally 'right' way to proceed; it's often a judgment call. Some doctors choose to treat things conservatively, some aggressively; some cultivate a sensitive, 'empathic' approach, others go for brisk decisiveness. To take SFD's example, double vision is a 'soft' symptom; although it can be a feature of a range of illness, it's not particularly diagnostic of anything 'nasty' (in the way that, say, sudden severe and unexplained weight loss spells cancer) and, often, no cause is found and it does disappear on its own. The first GP took a conservative approach, the second didn't. That doesn't necessarily mean the first one's wrong and the second one's right: although "urgent investigations" make us feel we're being taken seriously, they're not always the best course of action.

Self-harming: well, sure, psychiatrists' views are shaped in part by their medical training, but I'd argue that there's still something viscerally shocking about being confronted by, say, self-inflicted cutting - if that's never been one of your own coping mechanisms - that only prolonged experience with self-harmers is likely to alter. Self-harm is more prevalent in individuals unable to otherwise express their intense feelings, so the doctor's "you're a clever girl" comment may have been a clumsily-expressed admission of surprise, Cholister, that you didn't fit that particular stereotype. I don't know; I'm not him.

Certainly, I don't think men are treated more seriously than women - for pretty much the reasons Mordant expresses. Given that female doctors now outnumber male, particularly in General Practice, do you think this can/will change?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:40 / 06.08.02
I think there is definately an unwillingness for men to get medical attention. perhaps this is down to the very old fashioned view that boys don't cry? my experience of men when they are ill, however, is that they do make a godawful fuss ...

Um... ?!

My only experience of serious illness was complaining to a (female) friend that I had an horrendous pain in my back. I was told to stop being a hypochondriac, so I shut up and lay in bed. The pain didn't get better and within three days I just knew I had to get help, however stupid I felt and however much the piss was ripped out of me for being a hypochondriac. I walked to the doctor's and was diagnosed with a partially collapsed lung. By a doctor who couldn't seem to get over the fact that I had a. walked to her surgery and b. not sought treatment sooner for a condition which had the potential to be fairly serious.

Eventually I had to have surgery for the condition ('cos it recurred, in both lungs). As anyone whose had a general aneasthetic will know, you have to cough and expectorate hard pretty much as soon as you come round to clear the anaesthetic out of your lungs. Bearing in mind I had had my sternum cut vertically through, coughing was one of the most indescribably painful things I could have been required to do. The female physios who supervised my coughing sessions (hourly? three-hourly? Don't recall) never failed to mention what babies men were when it came to pain as I did my best to cough heartily and sent excruciating shockwaves through a freshly sawed-through sternum. Bless 'em, they certainly made me feel a whole lot better I can tell ya.

I haven't got anything 'intellectual' to say that Mordant hasn't already said, but thought I'd drop my 10 cents worth of personal experience into this thread. I suspect things might have been different had I not been a bloke, that I might have been encouraged to seek treatment sooner and had the piss ripped out of me less by the physios, but as other posters have said on this thread, that's only a suspicion, not an assertion. However, I don't go for the all men are babies line either, believe it or not. It hurt like fuck and scared me shitless, and, well, if that's me making a "godawful fuss" then so be it. I am sure as shit not apologising for it.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:51 / 06.08.02
bill - sounds like you had a pretty horrendous experience, both in terms of the illness you had and the reaction to it, and i'm sorry for that and i'm glad you recovered. but please read my post again - i did emphasise that it was only my own personal experience of how men i'd known dealt with trivial illness. specific men, specific events. and i only added it because fridgemagnet was asking that question. that's all - i did not say or even imply that 'all men are babies'. so please, stop putting words into my mouth.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:06 / 06.08.02
gah. want to reiterate what ganesh said about medical instutional approach being a product of things larger than itself: economics, political agendas, and they reflect societal prejudices and may well reinforce them in certain situations, but don't create them. may well perpetuate them...

so, we're seeing int eh above thread a playout of various gender formations and how they intersect with how we consider ourselves in terms of illness, *and* how this makes us seek help/not seek help. This will in turn structure the response fo teh professional, as will commonly-held societal attitudes.

I think we expect (and i've certainly been guilty of this) medical/healthcare professionals to somehow be 'above' these prejudices. But we're dealing with people here, not aliens or angels. And I think on both sides (we've touched on this recently, havn't we?) there needs to be a massive cultural shift in which patients and prof.s alike admit that prof.s are just people, not infallible, not superior and not perfect. And that in order to encourage communication and fewer assumptions on both sides (which this thread is full of) work has to be done on this, it's not something that develops spontaneously.

sorry, haven't really mentioned gender here, haev i? will be back when head is less of a mess...
 
 
Bill Posters
14:09 / 06.08.02
i did not say or even imply that 'all men are babies'. so please, stop putting words into my mouth.

'Kay, sorry. I was traumatised by recounting all that and my judgement was suspect.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:44 / 06.08.02
Hmmm. I'm thinking about the point that plums makes about how health profs. are just as fallible and prone to prejudice as the rest of us. Surely, since doctors are naturally more generally informed about health matters, there is a degree of responsibility to be aware of general assumptions that could negatively impact on an individuals health care? But I may be falling into the trap of seeing doctors as above the rest of us.

Also, the whole discussion of expectations makes me realise that I'm often clueless when it comes to dealing with doctors. I have no idea what to expect, what I should demand, what is a reasonable complaint and so on. If others feel the same way, then this is probably a particularly difficult problem with mental health issues.

As for the "all men are babies" stereotype. I'm not sure how much basis in fact it has, but I am perfectly willing to believe that men do complain a good deal about trivial illness. However, I'm always struck by how often I hear the sentiment expressed. Its an easy casual observation that passes with little examination. But there is an attitude behind it that one could arguably link with men's reluctance to seek treatment.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:55 / 06.08.02
Not quite sure I follow that Lurid. I think I have some idea what you're getting at but could you elaborate?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:59 / 06.08.02
Feeling very disjointed at the moment, but which bit Bill?
 
 
Bill Posters
15:02 / 06.08.02
Sorry, that wasn't very specific was it?! I meant the last 2 sentences.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:35 / 06.08.02
I think the "all men are babies" thing may have more to do with gender interaction than attitudes to health. There will be some men who view women as mother-carer-figures who will dole out sympathy when they're feeling crap, and there are some women who go out of their way to encourage that.

On the other hand, working in the field I do (pharmaceuticals) I know that spontaneous reports of adverse experiences are significantly lower from male patients than female, but when patients are asked "have you noticed anything?" the rates equalise. Don't have the figures to hand as to the proportion is 50-50 but it's certainly closer.

Perhaps this indicates that men will be concerned with keeping a coping image as a general rule and so not spontaneously report anything but, when given an avenue to do so which does not compromise that (self-)image, are quite happy to do so?

I might also venture that the "babies" thing may also have a lot to do with perceptions of the male role on the part of the females expressing it, as well as the way they are viewed by those "baby" men. I can't say I've noticed any lack of health-related whinging from women, or indeed much difference in quantity.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:38 / 06.08.02
I think that your experiences - thanks for sharing, btw - are a good example of the point I'm trying to make, Bill. First, you delayed going to see a doctor because you felt belittled. Then you felt ridiculed by physios who I'm sure gave little thought to their remarks. At least, that is the way I understood your post.

More generally, I've often heard men called "babies" for admitting to illness well before it could really be judged whether it was a trivial whinge or a case for concern. Almost as if the comment is a reflex on hearing about men who are ill.

As such, this sort of comment seems closely related to the idea of men as macho, strong and free from illness. In fact, it could serve as a reinforcement of those attitudes by subjecting to ridicule those who might admit to sickness.

All this is a bit abstract of course but, IIRC, the statistics do suggest that there is a very large problem with men not seeking treatment. So calling men "babies" is at best unhelpful and fails to reflect reality. At worst, it can form part of the culture that supports these destructive stereotypes.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:12 / 06.08.02
the statistics do suggest that there is a very large problem with men not seeking treatment

Indeed. I've heard claims that 'cancer in men is more likely to be fatal than in women' explained because quite simply, men are likely to present a more advanced state of the disease. I'm dubious about that claim though, and fail to see how one can generalise about all cancers and both (all?) genders in such a high-handed fashion. But a gender stereotype as potentially fatal? Interesting. Reminds me of the sickening case of a woman who accidently od'd on flu medicine 'cos she so wanted to be well enough to cook her family Xmas dinner rather than stay in bed with the sniffles. Thus does gender stereotyping kill. But I'm sure we knew that, I'm ranting a bit.
 
 
Ganesh
17:15 / 06.08.02
Plums: articulates the subject clearly and concisely - so you don't have to...

To me, this is an example of our somewhat ambivalent attitudes towards medical care in general. We profess to want more time, information, involvement, empathy, humanity, yet we reserve the right to regard the doctor as a sort of idealised, infallible parent figure - with all the intense, contradictory transference that implies. We want our doctor to treat us as his equal - but we're reluctant to allow him the same equality in terms of being as much the sum of his experiences as anyone else on the face of the planet.

FridgeMagnet: I'm very interested in your comments regarding adverse effect reporting. I'd certainly noticed that women are much more likely than men to complain of sexual dysfunction as a side-effect of psychotropic drugs - which makes me wonder if men feel ashamed that their 'virility' is being compromised. Perhaps silent stoicism is also unconsciously viewed as a component of virility...
 
 
w1rebaby
17:31 / 06.08.02
It's one of the major problems with AE reporting (my major area) - how to actually get patients to tell you what's wrong with them. Particularly with psychiatric patients, and particularly with sexual dysfunction in men - pharms companies are very very keen to get good data on this, because it's a major problem (or advantage over other drugs if you can prove it). Certainly, the push these days seems to be to ask "non-leading" questions at every visit, but that is going to be very dependent on the particular investigator. Off-hand I'm not sure whether it's an FDA requirement.

I think you're quite right that stoicism is seen as part of virility, and if someone feels their virility is compromised by sexual dysfunction anyway, they're going to try to maintain it in other areas as much as possible.
 
 
gravitybitch
04:53 / 08.08.02
This may be a little fuddled, as it's late and I'm tired, but...

Maybe men are "babies" when they're truly ill because they don't necessarily have coping behaviors for the small to midrange stuff - being "under the weather" to being mildly sick? They get flattened by the serious illnesses because they don't/can't acknowledge the small stuff?

I've nursed two men through having their wisdom teeth extracted, and both times the guys seemed to be completely adrift, with no idea what to do other than take the painkillers and be miserable. I've also insisted on taking a (very reluctant) man to the emergency room to have a split thumbtip cleaned up after a nasty little accident involving a car part, and nursed the same (completely helpless) man through a moderate bout of influenza (although we'd seen 12 Monkeys just before he fell ill, which may or may not have had something to do with his misery...).

Maybe part of the key to this is perceived helplessness? Both of the wisdom-tooth extractions were done under general anesthesia, which is a shock to the body, and at least one of the procedures was outright surgery, which is another physical shock. Most folks, any gender, don't have that much experience with going into shock...
 
 
Bill Posters
10:13 / 08.08.02
Maybe men are "babies" when they're truly ill because they don't necessarily have coping behaviors for the small to midrange stuff - being "under the weather" to being mildly sick? They get flattened by the serious illnesses because they don't/can't acknowledge the small stuff?

I think there may be a lot of truth in that...
 
 
Ganesh
10:31 / 08.08.02
Well, yes. I'm reminded of that particularly odious Lemsip ad where the smug executive returns to work, his 'flu miraculously gone, claiming that Lemsip 'sorts the men from the boys', or whatever. Real men, it is implied, don't go off sick unless they're actually missing limbs (plural)...
 
 
Ganesh
10:33 / 08.08.02
Well, yes. I'm reminded of that particularly odious Lemsip ad where the smug executive returns to work, his 'flu miraculously gone, claiming that Lemsip 'sorts the men from the boys', or whatever. Real men, it is implied, don't go off sick unless they're actually missing limbs (plural)...
 
 
Bill Posters
11:35 / 08.08.02
Which is an interesting statement, given that in fairly bog-standard Freudian terms a missing limb is a symbolic castration.

And as for that Lemsip advert... it has to be one of my least favourite ads ever.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:41 / 08.08.02
from tvgohome

 
 
Bill Posters
11:45 / 08.08.02
Genius.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:23 / 08.08.02
Yes, that awful Lemsip advert just reinforces all the worst stuff about how men shouldn't admit to being ill. As well as, of course, the more than implication that if you look after yourself as you should do, then you'll lose your job. As well as being a bit poofy.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:08 / 08.08.02
I read this topic with interest. I haven't been to the doctor since second year at university, so that is a good five years ago. Nothing to do with stoicism or being macho or whatever it just is something that I would quite like to avoid.

The whole take time off work, go and wait for ages in some crowded room with sick people, then explaining all your ills. Well, it just doesn't seem all that attractive and I would only put myself through that kind of hassle if something seemed very wrong.

At the same time I'm more than happy to take time off work, follow a reasonably healthy lifestyle and do any other sort of reasonable self-treatment. Personally I would be much more likely to seek medical attention for mionr ailments if the system was more flexible. Video-conferencing rather than doctor visits, online expert system diagnosis, stuff like that.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:10 / 09.08.02
Been thinking about healthcare and gender again...

One area which might be useful to examine how power relations play out in the doctor patient relationship... and this might bring us back to Ganesh's point about the changing gender profile of GPS.

The doctor/patient relationship is often one of power over (the doctor as authority, telling the patient what to do. patient waiting to be told what to do) rather than power with (doctor as expert in certain areas but not in authority over patient, working *with* patient for best solution) It's a professional job, requiring university and medical school level education, and so unsurprisingly traditionally is dominated by white, middle class, affluent men. It's also traditionally been common for successive generations of a family to enter the profession, as a 'birthright'. (G? what do you think? this is my possibly skewed impresh from having a manically medical family and thus having met lots of med. students./doctors)

Therefore, an interaction with a patient who for example is female, or working class, and who is under stress due to being ill, has the possiblity to be loaded with all kinds of power inbalances in favour of the doctor. The power-over relationship of man over woman is one that fits reasonably comfortably into wider society. I wonder if, as Ganesh says, more and more GPs are women, how this plays out in reverse?

And that people may well in the past have been attracted into the profession by this very opportunity to exercise authority.

To get anecdotal again, my ex-family GP (a man in his 60s, public school and Trinity College Dublin-educated, as he *made sure* to tell us) told my mother, a highly educated asian woman in her 40s suffering from debilitating manic depression that she was probably 'just a bored housewife' and 'need to get out more'. He was rather surprised when, in one of her lucid periods, she told him, articulately and clearly, to get stuffed, but this didn't really affect his overall impression.

Now this still angers me, but I bring it up as it's got as much to do with upbringing and social conditioning as it has to do with being his being a doctor. This just meant that he was in a position where his attitudes were directly damaging to someone else.

G, do you know much about the class/gender/race profile of newish doctors/students? as with many profesions, i think it's partly a case of a very entrenched and monocultural worldview bolstered by longstanding traditions... and as this changes, therapeutic relationships will also change.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:15 / 09.08.02
and strikes me I'm really only talking about doctors here, which is very snobbish and professional-centric of me! What about nurses, how do gender relations play out here?
 
  
Add Your Reply