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Oh Look, It's The Dark Knight Again #3

 
  

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houdini
03:12 / 14.08.02
For my money, Miller's been off his game for some years. Sin City (the original) was artistically groundbreaking and entertainingly nihilistic in the storytelling. Since then the plotting's been a terrible mix of Back To The Future II and scrips and scraps from Raymond Carver and Elektra:Assassin. The art style that Miller's been gravitating towards since A Dame To Kill For looks like a labour saver. I mean, even it if isn't, it gives the impression of being hastily done. Bit of a shame really.

I re-read DKR earlier this year (before hearing about DKII) and was surprised by *quite* how fascist Batman actually was in that story. Nonetheless, I still got goosebumps during the Bats/Supes fight scene.

"My parents taught me a different lesson..."
 
 
The Natural Way
07:52 / 14.08.02
You were surprised by the fascist thing? Christ, DKR is, as someone else (I think onion) has already pointed out, one of the definitive reaganite texts - the 80's in a nutshell. Everybubby knows that, my lad! How long have you been reading funnybooks?

It's like The Ultimates: it gets you cheering for THE ENEMY.
 
 
houdini
18:41 / 14.08.02
Since you ask, I've been reading comics since 'Battle Of The Planets' appeared on the cover of TV Comics #1. (And no, I wouldn't touch the current product with the tip of an eight foot electric cattleprod.) Couple of years of The Daredevils and Mighty World Of Marvel reprinting class US material and the Moore/Davis Cap'n Britain and I was hooked.

My point about DKR: I always knew it was Miller doing the uber-macho thing; kind of the source for all of the first-person monologues Wolverine was always giving. But in rereading it I was surprised by quite how ... butch ... I guess it sounded. Not to mention quite how politically fascist it was. Think I've crossed a few lines in the last 5 years in terms of how I regard "lawbreakers". When I first read DKR I was, like, 14 and it just seemed the people Batman was beating on were the Baddies. It's only if you approach it as a social text that it gets scary.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:43 / 14.08.02
Indeed.
 
 
houdini
18:45 / 14.08.02
And on another note: With Ultimates #6 Millar finally reveals quite how poisonous his view of these characters is. This is why I don't read the Ultimate line. With the exception of the Spider-Man book, none of these characters bear any more than a token relationship to the characters they're supposed to be. The relationship between Ultimate Captain America, say, and Marvel Captain America is no closer than the relationship between Apollo and Superman. But it really should be.

Oh well.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:46 / 14.08.02
One more thing: are you new to the 'Lith?

Just wanted to say, it's nice when freshblood turns up and proves to be as articulate and groovy as yrself, Hou.

Cheers.



And Viva Pug!
 
 
Spaniel
21:06 / 15.08.02
none of these characters bear any more than a token relationship to the characters they're supposed to be.

Sorry mate, sounds like fanboy argument to me. Personally I couldn't care less. The Ultimate line is supposed to be accessable and inviting to a new readership, whilst entertaining the old. Sure, it uses the same forms as the trad MU, but it does so because it recognises that it's the glossy surfaces that are cool and not the MU's inconsistent, tedious, inarticulate continuity. Christ, talking of DK, surely it's more than obvious that 80s diehards would have complained in a similar fashion: this isn't my grandfather's Batman etc...
 
 
houdini
05:41 / 16.08.02
I see a difference, to be honest, Pran.

It's long been a standard for good writers to come along and reinvent characters and books through a process of reimagining their limits, starting at their core. Alan Moore is, of course, the grand master of this. And if you look at Moore's projects from The Killing Joke through that Death of Superman thing (the last Supes story pre-Crisis, what was it called...?) or even his efforts to save Supreme, I think you can see him struggling to find the value in these characters, in the Swamp Thing, wherever, and bring that value to the work.

GM has done much the same thing. He's openly admitted that working on Animal Man was very easy because Buddy Baker was such a cypher. But he's also brought me, who suckled the mutant teat of Lee-Kirby in me youth, back to X-Men for the first time since my disgusted early '90's departure. This is not just because of his writing ('though to be fair I'd follow him to Strikeforce Morituri if that's what it took) but also because he's found a way to write Logan and Scott and all these other characters and make them alive again, make them meaningful and vibrant. It's about a certain amount of imaginative empathy. The whole thing he said in the interview discussed a couple threads over, about the characters being alive in his head.

In contrast, I feel Millar's work is not like this. It's much more about appealing to the prurient within fans. His versions of the Avengers remind me more of the pastiche versions of the Marvel Silver Age lineup in Marshall Law. Yeah, it's funny to see what fucktards (can I say that on this board?) a satirist can portray these characters to be. But it's a very 14-year-old funny and, for me, it wears thin pretty quick. I just think that the Ultimates is essentially a very calculated and soulless work. Millar writes a good line in violence, and he's got some clever dialogue. But violence and cleverness for their own sake have never impressed me that much, sorry.

Which side of the line the Miller take on Batman falls is, I guess, a subjective assessment. It all depends on whether you think the "real" Batman is the happy, squarejawed one of the 1950's or the grim, gun-toting avenger that Bob Kane originally gave us (well, our grandparents) in the 1930's. Personally, I think Miller brought it all back in a very real way and showed us what an intense and visionary fascist Bats was. It's amazing how he makes the character such an extremist and yet also so compelling. But I don't get that attachment from Millar's stuff. Didn't get it on Swamp Thing. Didn't get it on The Authority. Don't get it on his Ultimate stuff. Sorry.

P-Runce: Yeah, I'm new to the boards. I've been checking out the Barbelith 'zine for a couple years off and on. Used to surf the old 'The Bomb' website pretty regularly too. Had the houdini login for a time and recently decided to come put it to use. Whatever spirits alone know why, but I'm probably here to bug you for a while....
 
 
The Natural Way
07:38 / 16.08.02
Just "Runce", my man. The only constant in an ever morphing cyber-name. Beware the return of ATTACK FRUNT!

Don't see the Ultimates as evilrevisionism (a la Marshall Law), hou. Think we're way past that now. The 80s are did and goon. Millar isn't solely interested in unearthing the detestable shadow-selves of the character's original incarnations. He likes them. I find them all pretty sympathetic, TBH (except Pym), and I'm really interested to see where he takes them... I don't think the idea's ever been to go for any kind of grim and gritty retake, but, instead, to modernise some preposterously old fashioned concepts. Hence black gutters and the whole TV/movie vibe (widescreen visuals, snappy dialogue, fast pacing); and a bunch of chharacters hammered into a shape that the modern teenager can instantly recognise/digest. God, look, I just don't buy the original Avengers (and that's not because of any outdated, anachronistic ideas about "realism" - something Millar employs only in so far as it lends his corner of the Ultiworld a bit of Hollywood weight)....the approach to story telling, the high concept...the look and feel of the thing.... The ultimates just fits: like a really good blockbuster, but w/ a story and script that don't make me want to slay the director.

I know this isn't much of an argument, but I do want to get away from the idea that Millar's book is in any way related to all that 80s satire stuff/grim and gritty revisionism. It employs elements from both, but, jeez, he's pillaging so many forms for this book: a post-modern stew, like every other good book produced these days....
 
 
Sax
08:39 / 16.08.02
As far as the Ultimates not bearing more than a mild resemblance to the characters they're supposed to be... what "characters"? In my recollection, the Avengers cast has always been the most turgidly characterised bunch of heroes in comicdom. Interchangeable noble costumed pillocks with slightly-realised foible here or there. At least in Millar's hands they are something a little more than the two-dimensional paperverse creations they have been in previous hands. The Ultimates is the only superhero book I'm enjoying at the moment, apart from NXM, which I don't really count as superheroes anymore.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:50 / 16.08.02
Y'know, I'm actually I'm beginning to think (w/ possibly the exception of some of the spiderbooks) that The Ultimates is the ONLY superhero book that lives up to the name. I get the feeling that, when the Ultimates save the day, they really fucking save the day. And the Hulk was only the starter, we haven't even got onto saving-the-world stuff yet (a convention which, as Millar points out in a recent interview, has really become devalued comixcurrency). The only comic where the guys actually feel super and larger than life.

The original Thor....BAH! Give me Millar's anytime.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
02:03 / 17.08.02
Pick a track, o rollicking boxcar...
 
 
The Natural Way
08:05 / 17.08.02
Hou started it!

Why would anyone wanna talk about DK2 anyway?
 
 
01
18:23 / 17.08.02
BLEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

What a vomit pit this whole series has been. Everytime I pick it up I get I get ferociously nauseaus and proceed to taste bile.

The art? Shit.
The characters? Shit.
The story? You mean there was one?

DK 2 reminded me of a 5 year old who's just been given a brand new set of superhero action figures and wants to have a "real big fight" with all of them. Smash! Crash! Get the bad guys! Make them 'splode!
And then he's given new box of crayons so he can draw it.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
01:18 / 24.08.02
I was quite upset that the big suprise ending was a rip on the batman beyond return of the joker movie...

::crawls back to lurker land::
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:22 / 27.08.02
....oh.

I was kinda surprised to find how much I enjoyed the story when I read the issues back to back. In episodes, I thought it was ghastly. Now here I was thinking they were kinda cool.

Still, not much that was new.
 
 
Axel Lambert
12:10 / 26.12.02
Finally read it. Some points:

(1) How come Black canary is this young babe when she should be in her fifties or sixties?

(2) When Batman tells Clark the reason he (Batman) can be seen and heard is that The atom has left a device in Superman's inner ear, how come Superman's daughter can hear and see him as well?

(3) How come Batman (through Carrie) punishes one of his 'sons of the batman' for killing a policeman, and then relishes in the slaughter of Lex Luthor, saying "it's a new ballgame"...?

(4) How come Batman talks to 'Alfred' when he died in the first series? (Could be a computer called 'Alfred', but why is this not explained then?)

(5) Did Lex Luthor (and Brainiac) take over America at some point in between the two books, or were they secretely behind the scenes in DK1 as well? Most stupid theme in whole book, this, explaining "the police state" with LL. Nearly as dumb as The matrix' answer to the (knicked from Invisibles) question What is this world?
 
 
Axel Lambert
13:43 / 26.12.02
And another thing: what did Green Lantern do with his big hand over the earth (and moon)??? When GM used this idea in JLA: Earth two, it was to trap the evil guys there. But here he just held it for a (short) while, and then -- left. Guys?

All in all, a really shitty book.
 
 
Ethan Van Sciver
22:36 / 03.01.03
Oh, I liked it. It felt like a stream of thought to me. Like FM furiously scribbled a superhero fantasy as fast as he could come up with it. We were just unfortunate enough to have it presented over the course of 6 months, or however long it took to release. That helped to build up expectation, which soured readers as though they were being cheated. I merely felt that I got to see close to 150 pages of Frank Miller's private sketchbook, the one he might work on while on an airplane, or bored somewhere. It was done by him, mostly for himself, and we got to see it.

It's not DKR, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be. I think Miller's motivations for doing it were a combination of the outrageous sum of money he was offered (I'm told it was 7 figures), a favor to a friend, some goading on by the comic book community in general, and the desire to unwind from working on the more complex books he's doing. In fact, last year sometime, right when my first issue of NXM came out, I got to sit down with Frank Miller and show it to him. He was wandering around a convention in NY, and not too many people recognized him, so I was able to pull him aside and get a little one on one time with him. (five minutes worth. Heh.) He looked at NXM #117, and said, "See, this. (Pointing to page one) This is what I'm interested in doing right now. Just having fun with freaky characters."

After Dark Knight Strikes Back #1 came out, I understood what he meant by that.

Ethan V.
 
 
Axel Lambert
18:33 / 04.01.03
Is that really you Ethan?? Cool.
 
 
abstractgeek
16:04 / 10.01.03
i really didnt like the book when it came out, but it has grown on me. its not entirely successful, but it is really different from most of whats out there. at first i hated the color, i couldnt see how lynn varley who has done such exquisite work in the past could do that, but i think the textures and colors and computerized look is a very real and valid artistic experiment. while its certainly not something ill read over and over i applaud miller for NOT just rehashing what hes done before. as far as his motivation, i really dont care. i wouldnt pass up a big paycheck to work on something id enjoy, so i cant very well fault anyone else. All in all i think the book will be better appreciated 10 years from now, when the hype, the lateness and all the "there never should have been a sequel in the first place" will be long gone.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:36 / 17.11.03
I just read all the issues back to back and enjoyed it very much. I remember when they first came out, I was pissed that they were so late. The whole thing was really fun. All the JLA guys being saved by Batman. The Atom, the Flash with cool new costume, Plastic Man gone crazy. Batman turning the trend of superheroes into a revolution. A much gruffer Lex Luthor, Braniac, and the city of Kandor! The whole thing was really fun, and the art was nice to look at.

(1) How come Black canary is this young babe when she should be in her fifties or sixties?
It was my understanding that Black Canary was just a character picked by one of the Superchix. She was just the least original in coming up with a Superchix persona.

(2) When Batman tells Clark the reason he (Batman) can be seen and heard is that The atom has left a device in Superman's inner ear, how come Superman's daughter can hear and see him as well?
She can use her super-hearing to make it sound the same in her inner ear and see the same images? Not too sure on that one.

(3) How come Batman (through Carrie) punishes one of his 'sons of the batman' for killing a policeman, and then relishes in the slaughter of Lex Luthor, saying "it's a new ballgame"...?
Carrie points out that one of the cops killed was a 22 year veteran of the Metropolis police force and the other a father of two. She goes on to explain that they weren't the enemy, but slaves of the enemy.


(4) How come Batman talks to 'Alfred' when he died in the first series? (Could be a computer called 'Alfred', but why is this not explained then?)
I figured it was a nickname for the computer.

(5) Did Lex Luthor (and Brainiac) take over America at some point in between the two books, or were they secretely behind the scenes in DK1 as well? Most stupid theme in whole book, this, explaining "the police state" with LL. Nearly as dumb as The matrix' answer to the (knicked from Invisibles) question What is this world?
I figured Luthor took advantage of the confusion and chaos brought about in the first book. I agree it wasn't explained in detail, but it didn't take away from my reading experience.

What about the rest of you? Changed your mind since it first came out, or hate it even more?
 
 
Char Aina
08:42 / 17.11.03
The original Thor....BAH! Give me Millar's anytime

YES.
and i'm a fan of 'thee olde thorre' too.
 
 
fluid_state
13:51 / 17.11.03
Oddly enough, I'm got ideas on DK2 while comparing Thors. (And that sentence is almost in English, until the end).

DKR came out in a vacuum; no dissenting voices in the mainstream, at the time (IIRC). Okay, they've been coded all over comics as far back as I know, but DKR was all about the dissent. V for Vendetta with Batman at the helm. Not earth-shattering insight for anyone of a dissenting taste, but a hell of a big leap for kids buying Batman comics (Holy Fascist state, Batman!). By the time DK2 arrived, the mainstream had co-opted dissent (ie the Authority), and the poppy, friendly take on the character was indicative of an emergent trend. DK2 also came out with a marketing blitz, intolerable wait and a promise that it would be the second coming of the BatJesus, but maybe I'm just being petty.

-BLATANT VIRAL THREADROT-
Oh, yeah, Thor. I'm damn glad "forsooth", "verily", and "methinks" are gone, but I have a feeling they'll return to Ultimate Thor. Thor probably isn't the most stable of characters, and the more he grows accustomed to the role of Thunder God, the less accustomed he'll grow to the English we all speak and love.
-/BVTr-
 
  

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