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Underground > Comic Books >

Oh Look, It's The Dark Knight Again #3

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12:38 / 01.08.02

Or whatever it's called. Last issue out. Just bought it for nigh on six quid (six quid! Do you know what that can buy up north?) but haven't been brave enough to read it yet.

Anyone else bothered?

The Natural Way

13:52 / 01.08.02

No.

NXM trade and X Statics were good enough for me. Sod Millar - I can't be arsed to fork out that much money for something I don't really give 2 shits about.

13:55 / 01.08.02

My comic shop didn't even get X-Statics in. Wankers. How many X-Force trades are there, anyway, thread-rotting wildly here?

yawn - thing's buddy

14:07 / 01.08.02

didn't pick it up.

may do later.

I can create a mindset in order to find it fascinating.

I may create this mindset later in the year.

14:11 / 01.08.02

re: x-force, there's just the one trade of the first 5 issues. looks like they're collecting the whole milligan/allred run in hardcover later on in the year...

I went for the x-statix and the new x-men trade as well, flipped through dark knight #3, didn't want to spend the $ on it...

Murray Hamhandler

19:32 / 01.08.02

Hadn't really looked at this series because I wasn't terribly interested (having not been much of a fan of Dark Knight). I glanced through #3 yesterday on a whim, though, and the art was abysmal. I don't think that Frank Miller is anywhere close to being a great artist, but I know he's better than this.

20:49 / 01.08.02

For some reason I didn't even get sent the damned things. And I actually have people interested in it.

Fuck.

Aside from that, it's terrible. The art's poor and the story just not good. I haven't read it yet, of course, but that's what my spirit guides from the future are telling me.

Zoom.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

22:03 / 01.08.02

I didn't by the mini-series since I knew they would be putting it into every collected format known to man. It's getting horrid reviews, but I'll buy the hardcover, and DC will have their creative teams rip it off for the next 5 years or so.

07:05 / 02.08.02

Well that was so...so-so.
Apart from the money they made I don't really think there was much point to that.
And the art is fucking terrible!

07:58 / 02.08.02

Got it, read it, and it was okay. Not great, but okay.

The art just looks lazy, however, and in some panels I genuinely have no idea what’s been going on. The colouring doesn’t help – it often gets in the way, and this (plus the art) is the problem for me : it gets in the way of the story. I don’t want it to obstruct the reading experience, but – as was the case in the first series – to add to it whilst carrying it along.

And one of the oddest things about the whole DK2 experience is that, despite each issue having 80 pages (I think that’s right?) and often feeling like it’s padded out with page after page after page of the little vox pop panels which were so effective in DKR, at some points things feel horribly rushed, which suggests dodgy pacing… and maybe some eye-off-the-ball stuff with the editing side of things.

But it has its moments. Certainly not as remarkable as the original, and suffers terribly from the absence of Klaus Janson and the 16-panel grid. And I can understand people’s grrr-ness about the scheduling issues. Especially the retailers.

And the cover looks like a piece of preparatory art, frankly. Maybe it was…

DBC

08:16 / 02.08.02

You all may bitch, but you actually went out and bought it...

08:28 / 02.08.02

Fair point.

I thought it was all right – still better than a lot of stuff out there, but just disappointing given the high standard of the first series.

In all honesty, I’m feeling that way with The Filth compared to The Invisibles so far, but that might lift…

DBC

yawn - thing's buddy

09:56 / 02.08.02

I'm into the 'shit-art' aesthetic.

just how shit can you make something?

Mister Six, whom all the girls

13:49 / 02.08.02

Eh. I got issues one and two... skipped on three. It was just terrible. The art is rushed, the story... bear with me on this guys but didn't Dark Knight Returns have a point? A raison d'writer? This one feels like marketing and not much else. Oh, I know there's the 'world is ruled by Lex Luthor running things' theme and the 'lets dress up and play super-hero' theme... but it's just terribly forced.

One of the first comics I ever read was the Daredevil issue where Ben Urich 'dies.' This DK2 is not the Miller I know and it's sad. Maybe it's the money, or maybe he's just burnt out.

The coloring is pants, very pants. Lynn Varley has exceptional skill and the result of the computer kills it. At least 3 looked like an improvement. And it looks like, underneat the pixels, Frank spent 3 minutes over a bagewich doing the art with a sharpie. Maybe it's a 'thin' he's trying, I dunno, but to me it looks very rushed. Again, I hope his heart wasn't in it, cuz otherwise he's just burnt out.

And on 'the Filth,' I can't explain it but I'm very excited about this series. Maybe because I love NXM, but miss Mozz's Invisibles feel.

20:15 / 02.08.02

i quite liked it. i thought the art excellent, an inspired repositioning of golden [cole, jerry paris] and silver [kirby natch] age s-hero storytelling techniques. big and open and fanciful. the colours work like a signpost to the implications of computer colouring in comics today [black and white ones! colour your own photoshoppers!]. varley clearly went at the computer pallette like talking heads went to their guitars in 1976. and it looks messy but wild and energetic. batman's dialogue becomes very strange towards the end but not really good-strange. the story pastiches morrison's justice league and o'neill's batman. like miller read the new mcloud book and took it for gospel. but you don't want to miss any book where catgirl fires a thermite arrow through robin the boy joker's balls.

Murray Hamhandler

20:29 / 02.08.02

(thread rot)
yawn asked: "just how shit can you make something?"

Just about this shit.
(/thread rot)

11:29 / 03.08.02

The coloring is pants, very pants. Lynn Varley has exceptional skill and the result of the computer kills it.

That assumes Varley didn't intend the final product to look the way it does. I'm with Onion in that I believe she knew what she was doing.

Whether the like the results or not, now that's a different question.

12:55 / 03.08.02

I don't have any idea what happens in it. At all.

No really, I was completely lost read it.

The art is rough, although I think it is intentionally so, it is still pretty poor though.

Jack The Bodiless

01:23 / 04.08.02

DKR didn't need a sequel. The set up of the ending allowed us to extrapolate what could happen and be comfortable with it... kind of like the neding to Blade Runner: The director's Cut, you know? It assumed we understood, and "what is understood need not be discussed."

This feels like a cash deal, like Ed Harris advertising Vauxhall. It's the same guy, the same gravelly intonation, the same icy, penetrating stare and pure presence... but with nothing but air fuelling it. Like masturbating over the thought of sex with the one you love. You're left with constant reference points to the real thing, and a sense that you've just wasted a part of your life.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

04:54 / 04.08.02

I understand why Miller did it other than money. He said in interviews that he didn't think anyone "got" his idea in the first one and used it as an excuse to break down the super-hero genre and do a shitload of "grim n gritty" books. Then, when he moved over to Sin City, everyone at DC started pitching Mickey Spillaine crime type series (side note, Max Collins had been doing them since 1983 in comics, and he should have been brought in on that trend, since he's won at least three Shamus awards).

So, he thought if he did a series about the joys of the rebirth of the super-hero, the sheep would follow. Not in a "I'm so great" way, but in a "if they are going to rip me off, rip this off" way.

It may not be popular to think this, but a LOT of the comics community has made a very nice living off of Alan Moore and Frank Miller.

I woudl disagree about him doing the "rebirth of the superhero as a good guy" tho, since I think Busiek and Waid started that back in the mid 90's...

yawn - thing's buddy

10:10 / 04.08.02

chanks for the shit-link Dericcccc

-twas shite indeed but tis something shite-EE-RR i need.

10:37 / 04.08.02

'heroes as good guys' sounds slightly different to say 'heroes satisfied by their role' or 'heroes enjoying the thrill of their adventures'. having thought about what really creeps with me in this comic - the dramatic shift in batman's personality. i've always wanted him to enjoy his job, but here where he finally does he scares me more than the joker. in my earlier name-dropping fest i forgot of all people nietzsche, 80s comics' biggest moustache. martha washington looks more tokenistic anomaly than ever. 'i may be a fascist but i'm not a racist alright?' welcome back frank indeed.

11:06 / 04.08.02

Spoiler!
Miller's Spin -

Batman: Terroristic powerbroker, complete with Kryptonian strong arms and other worldly board-shaker, complete with power ring. His growling and snarling now include: "Before I had them killed,..."and "...You're about to die.", and "End the reign of criminals". I guess Brucie-pooh, under Miller, has no problem knocking off top criminals.

Wonder Woman: Cry-on-the-sidelines, Barely-clad single parent, who is ineffective in the series, except giving Super-Geezer a quickie.

The story was easy for me to read if I took it as a channel-surfing American layabout popping in on CC, FOX, and MTV for news updates about the return of the heroes. That , and a healthy background of the DC heroes, made it easy.

00:23 / 06.08.02

I was wavering after the first two issues, where I agree the art wasn't that great.
But, I'll tell you I picked up #3 the other day and was blown away. I do think there's something weird about the coloring, but some of the art is just amazing. More importantly, there were times I was laughing my ass off at everything Miller was satirizing. I'd be surprised if one of the talking heads or politicos he skewers don't try to sue DC.
I loved the story as I agree completely with Miller that the disconnect between our media and reality is big enough to drive a truckload of nuclear waste through, but the superhero-terrorist analogy does seem a bit forced.
Not the Dark Knight Returns but better than any non-Grant superhero book I've read in awhile.

06:07 / 08.08.02

i think Grant Morrison (in the recent interview listed) is close to what i feel about this dark knight joke
"The whole thing felt slack and unconvincing in every area of its production. I assume Miller was talked into it by friends or paid a vast amount of money. Probably both. It's a shame he didn't give it his all but maybe I'm wrong and he's going through a deliberately primitive phase. "

the ord is unconvincing. tries to be big brother meets the osbornes meets an internet chatroom (with miller having the time of his life apparently). how boring and stale can we say it is. i can't be bothered shredding it anymore.
as far as it being some comment on that state of superheroes - maybe we need to get back to nietzsche and project some new spandex clad rush

12:16 / 08.08.02

the sad thing is that Miller probably thought he was actually doing something interesting and groundbreaking.

that saddest thing though is that now when I think of Dark Knight Returns, my very positive memories are going to be overshadowed by this shallow piece of crap.

yawn - thing's buddy

13:12 / 08.08.02

pull on yer tights boys and girls!

that's inspirational stuff that is!

14:01 / 08.08.02

What was the idea with Green Lantern, then? Does he live in his own ring now? (Didn't he always?) And who are the wife and kids? Made up ring constructs? You'd have thought he'd have invented a better-looking family.

That's one of my major gripes about the series, aside from the cack art and the disjointed writing, the way characters are just thrust in for a few panels then discarded. Presumably Miller thought characterisation wasn't important as any readers who shelled out the best part of 20 quid for the entire run would be familiar with these DCU icons, but they were just reduced to a series of meaningless symbols.

15:17 / 08.08.02

I really liked the fact that The Question was in it.

Anyone have idea why ?

DBC

15:48 / 08.08.02

...one of my major gripes [was] the way characters are just thrust in for a few panels then discarded. ... characterisation wasn't important as [it was assumed that readers] would be familiar with these DCU icons, but they were just reduced to a series of meaningless symbols.

Rather like Kingdom Come, then.

21:49 / 08.08.02

Far, Far more entertaining than Mark Waid's vision of the "future Heroes", thats 'fer sure. Good Fun.

17:03 / 09.08.02

yeah miller's still a class storyteller, still picks the action angles no-one else ever gets, still expects the reader to actively engage with the strip. action and violence. action and violence. action and violence. action and violence

18:19 / 09.08.02

Sax: "What was the idea with Green Lantern, then? Does he live in his own ring now? (Didn't he always?) And who are the wife and kids? Made up ring constructs? You'd have thought he'd have invented a better-looking family."

That was Green Lantern in the opening? I thought it was J'onn J'onzz.

19:44 / 09.08.02

Cool points:
Capt. Marval's death scene. (Hey, if it worked in Kingdom Come...)
Saturn Girl
Green Lantern's brief appearance
Superman's change of heart
Use of Kandor
Brainiac, all the way

Good points:
Elements of story
Political/Social points to be made
Occasional snippets of dialog

Bad points:
Good God man, was there a deadline you just couldn't meet? It was so rushed I could barely follow it. All the cool points I listed above got barely a page, when each would be worth an issue. Nothing is followed up, nothing is given ground, it all sort of hangs there. So much happens at once that you can't keep up with it. It left me longing for more, sure, but not in a good way. The art has passed from stylistic to irritating, and I'm normally a HUGE fan of Miller's style. He seemed to come and go with it. The occasional frame or two was up to quality, while most were sketchy at best. The story was also more about Superman than Batman, which is arguably a good point.

I think my biggest complaint overall is the pacing. It had the potential to be so much better, were it handled right.

I did enjoy the set overall, though I have to admidt it was shoddy for Miller. I expect more out of him.

As for Batman's character in this and his personal story, I have three words: That Yellow Bastard. Miller's stepping over his own old ground, and he did the story of the old man that just wouldn't quit better the first time when he gave it room to pace as it should.

01:41 / 13.08.02

Dark Knight Returns was one of the best mini-series I have ever read. The sequel was not neccessary and was put out just to make money. I read all 3 issues and thought that it was alright. the Green Lantern being a frog-looking thing at first was pretty dumb. The art was mediocre but fit the story because the story was mediocre. Frank Miller is a much better artist than waht he showed on DK2. Besides the 3rd issue was definetly not worth the wait. Borrow it from someone and read it if you get the chance but don't spend money on it. There are better things.

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