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The "Cult Writer/Artist/Musician" as Exchange System

 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:56 / 30.07.02
From elsewhere, on Neil Gaiman:

You see, this is kind of what I mean. Gaiman exists partly as authgor and partly as social commodity in a way that many "proper" writers do not - partly because JD Salinger is less likely to have his photo taken with you, maybe...so we are talking about *meeting* Gaiman rather than *reading* Gaiman.

Case in point. I used to know somebody who was part of the inspiration for Delirium blah blah fishcakes (who also crops up in DWJ's dedications, rather worryingly), and as a result of that had wangled all her goth chums "ins" to be extras in Neverwhere. As a result of *that*, each one of them had their own "the day I met Neil Gaiman" story, every single one of which essentially went "I was on the stairs going up, and Neil was on the stairs coming down, and he said, "Watch out - these stairs are a bit narrow," and I said, "Right you are, Neil."

I think that possibly one element of this in a broader sense is that (and I am getting a germinating Head Shop thread here) often his work is enjoyed by people (and I am obviously not referring to anyone here) who generally have not acquired a critical vocabulary - scientists, for example - and as such are unable to express their admiration through the standardised language of Eng Lit. As a form of substitution or exchange, l'homme does duty for l'oeuvre, aloowing the less "learned" vocabulary of personal response to be deployed. In effect, the man or woman becomes metonym.


Thinking about this and how it can be applied to the "cult" in general - take Robert Anton Wilson, say, or William S Burroughs, both of whose characters seem to be inextricably linked to the creation, understanding and appreication of their work - or, more precisely, there seems to be significant investment, by creator, marketing, media and fans in assuming so. Perhaps this is in fact the case in all such situations, and the form of the language being used to discuss the work acts on occasion as a smokescreen.

Thinkings? More later, hopefully...
 
 
Sax
13:49 / 31.07.02
It does seem that any creative person automatically signs on the dotted line to become a "personality" as well when they put their name to a publishing/recording/whatever contract. Hence the rise of one-hit-wonder "personality novelists" in the latter part of the 90s and still going strong now - ie the 20-something hip young gunslinger who has to be seen out at fabric or the Met Bar to properly promote his gangster chic debut.

Perhaps we are not happy to merely read and enjoy a book any more - maybe the whole author-novel package is some kind of aspirational thing? Maybe we read He Kills Coppers and enjoy it but we also read an interview with Jake Arnott and think, "Hmm, he's tall, dark and handsome, moves in hip London circles, has a slightly subversive background and has that ever-so dangerous undefined sexuaility about him... wow, I'd like to be just like that!"

And I'm sure there are people who look at Neil Gaiman and think: "Nice mullet, jeans with creases down them, 80s leather jacket - wow! I'm so this guy! As well as reading his books/comics, I could be his friend!"

Although as T-Haus points out, they are probably scientists. Or computer programmers.

Just another example of cult of personality?

Although how that explains why Catcher in the Rye keeps selling when Salinger took off to live in a cave and eat possums immediately following publication, I don't know. A long-lost era in publishing, perhaps.
 
 
No star here laces
15:55 / 31.07.02
Is this really only restricted to 'cult' figures though? Granted, the dynamic is definitely stronger for those types of artist (artist used as shorthand for novelists, artists and musicians) but I don't know if its exclusive to them.

Common myth would have it that art is an expression of self. Therefore validation of art is validation of self. Leading to the (false) conclusion that if we like someone's art, we must like them also. But their art cannot provide us with validation, no matter how much we enjoy it. So the artist becomes a locus for all the unfulfilled yearning for a better life present in the needy and unfulfilled individual. Perhaps if they learn more about the artist they will find out that the artist is like them, thus providing a temporarily satisfying but utterly ephemeral validation for this individual.

'Cult' artists are those that appeal to individuals who define themselves as being on the fringes of society. In other words to needy and unfulfilled individuals. So of course this dynamic will be more pronounced among the 'cult'.

JD Salinger is actually a very good example of the cult of personality in that he expressly refuses to court publicity, and thus we all know what a recluse and a nut he is. Hey! wacky, crazy author rejects western civilisation due to terminal misanthropy. That's just like me! I'd better read his book (I am 17 years old and pissed off because I have no girlfriend. It must be all of society and the human race that is at fault).


I'd see it as part of the late 20th century veneration of the 'creative' above all else. We all know there is an assumption that creative activities are the most worthwhile things people can indulge in - witness the way that retiring middle-class people inevitably take up pottery or watercolours to fill in the long, washed out hours of their fading lives. Or the way all teenage boys instinctively feel that if they form a rubbish rock band they will be more likely to get laid. This is stating the obvious.

We all know the advantages of being seen to be 'creative', whereas actual creativity frequently brings no rewards whatsoever in itself. We would all like to be told we are creative just as we would all like to be rich. Rich people's money is not, however, interesting, there's just lots of it. But rich people themselves are fascinating. And if you're going to be brutal the same thing may be true of many artists and their work.
 
 
Gibreel
03:26 / 01.08.02
Haus> I'm not sure I follow your initial comment - neither am I sure that Sax and Lyra are talking about the same things as you (excellent and thought-provoking tho both of their posts are).

Maybe 'investment' is the keyword in your post. A book (for example) is big, complex thing - and disappointingly unphotogenic. So (as Sax says) you need a picture of the author to flog it. And if their lives are as lurid as WSB, so much the better. Books, music, and art are commodities to be sold. [How do Barthes/Foucault ideas about the "Author Function" fit into this?]

Lyra> I don't think it's just a late 20-century thing - I can just see Homer being lead away from an overeager fan who can't stop saying "Dude, when's the sequel to the Odyssey coming out? Your shit rocks! For a blind guy". The need for human beings to identify things to venerate outside themselves seems fairly constant.

But perhaps with the current lack of saints and spirits to worship we need more fleshly icons.

And you present this emphasis on "the creative" in a largely negative way. The products that most people come up with (be it watercolours or angsty power-ballads) may be crap on one level - but they are an attempt at self-expression in lives that may be frustrated in other areas. Why is this a necessarily bad thing? Should people be out reforming society and fomenting revolution instead? Or simply shut up?

And again, haven't people always tried to express themselves in music, art, etc? Before the advent of recorded sound most of the music in a house was "homegrown".
 
 
Persephone
21:03 / 01.08.02
I think this is very interesting, but needs to be unpacked a little?

If I am following the original argument, it goes:

1) There is a distinction between "cult" and "proper" writers. I don't say that there isn't, but is this one of those things that you intuit or can you construct a test for this? I seriously think it would be interesting to take a sort of survey... you list 100 or 1000 writers and respondents have to instinctively choose "cult" or "proper" ...my instinctive response for Salinger, for example, would be "cult" ...but not to debate that, rather I would love to look at the pattern of responses. Just running through some names in my head, I am thinking that there is not going to be an alignment between cult and popular and proper and literary, which may or may not be implied in the original argument.

2) Cult writers are commodified in a way that proper writers are not. Which raises the question, is this coincident to whatever the distinction is between cult and proper... or is this definitional? But hold that question, because the argument now goes...

3) Cult writers are read by different readers, on the aggregate, than proper writers are read by. Cult readers, unlike proper readers, lack proper language that would allow them to discuss the writing at hand; and instead, their discussion --and subsequently their understanding-- elides to the writer.

Hm.

Perhaps the causality is a bit crossed, is what I am thinking. But there is something very interesting at the heart of this.

I think you would also have to look at whether cult writers themselves "lack proper language" to discuss their own writing as separate from themselves. To what degree are cults created from the adored center, versus from the adoring fringe?

[Oh, hell. I write this whole thing & now I see the topic abstract: Is the "cult" a mechanism to integrate the dramatic appreciation of a character and the work they produce?

Well. Yes. But under what circumstances and whose hand does mechanism activate?]
 
 
Sax
05:58 / 02.08.02
I'm getting a little confused with some of the terminology here. Personally, I wouldn't pigeonhole Gaiman as a "cult" writer, I'd call him a "genre" writer. If pressed to name "cult" writers I'd probably toss names like Terry Southern, Ginsberg, Bill Drummond and, yes JD Salinger around, although my old English teacher would probably take issue with the last one and label him a "proper" writer.
 
 
Persephone
11:32 / 02.08.02
That's what I'm thinking, Sax, that cult/proper is a separate dichotomy from genre/literary --which I think is going to slightly vex the final part of the argument, about readers lacking proper language; but never mind that for a minute. Also never mind for a minute that classifications are vexed, and dichotomies the most vexed of all... one does instinctively feel that there is such an animal as a cult writer, that's worth exploring. So, you know, what I would do is start throwing out statements & seeing what sticks and what doesn't. Cult writer is equivalent to genre writer. Cult writers are subset of genre writers. Cult writers are distinguished by a devoted fan base. Etc.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:45 / 02.08.02
Worth saying here that cult books can exist without their authors being cults as well, I think. However, such books have a tendency to be genre books (not always, I don't think you can put Bukowksi in a genre... or can you?).

Conversely, I can only think of attempt to become a cult author before the works had become a cult in their own right, and that was Murray Lachlan Young, and well... yes.
 
 
Sax
12:04 / 02.08.02
I think that cult books/writers (say, Jack Kerouac and On The Road) are distinguishable from writers/books around which a cult following develops (perhaps Gaiman and American Gods, or a more established example would be Terry Pratchett and the Discworld novels) because the cult writer is, as I think Lyra pointed out, generally on the edge and away from the mainstream, and thus invested with a kind of "cool", whereas although Pratchett is equally non-mainstream (or maybe not; he's always at the top of the bestseller lists), his fans are considered more geeky and nerdy and not cool.

Therefore, does cult=cool and genre=geeky?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:05 / 02.08.02
The difference between a cult writer and any other has nothing to do with the work and everything to do with the audience. Proper writers have an audience, cult writers have a cult—that is, a fanbase who invest waaaaaay too much in the writer's work—who make devotion to the person and/or the work (because it happens with collaborative artforms like TV shows, too—Star Trek being the most obvious example) into a lifestyle.

That said, it is possible for "cult" writers to be read and appreciated by folks who are not members of the cult—although such folks may be slightly embarrassed to read that writer, and go to great pains to make it known that they aren't that sort of Neil Gaiman fan. Oh, God, no.

I mean, I wouldn't even call myself a Gaiman fan as such. I mean, I read his books. Some of them. Most of them. Not like I collect his first editions, or stalk him or anything.

And I think he's a good writer and all. Not a godhead, or anything, but a good writer.

You know.

Just as it's possible to have watched and enjoyed Star Trek now and then, but to feel one's flesh crawl with horror when watching the documentary Trekkies.
 
 
No star here laces
13:26 / 02.08.02
To answer gib's point on negative angle on creativity...

Of course it is a good thing that people are seeking to express themselves, it's just false of them to think that this makes them a) better than anyone else and b) worthy of attention and/or admiration. I mean if I'm frustrated with my daily life and express it by breaking things I certainly wouldn't expect to be deluged with offers of sex or to be perceived as some sort of tragic figure. I'd fucking hope someone would tell me to stop being an arsehole instead.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
09:41 / 04.08.02
Lyra, the rich are surely only fascinating because they have money. Money brings many freedoms from the drudgeries of life, such as work. The rich, despite any social constrictions of their class, are free from the majority of social constrictions. Are people who become rich accidentally (e.g. lottery winners) suddenly fascinating? The rich also control the myth-making machine that is the media, they also decide what is classed as “serious” art, and who is an artist. They control to a greater degree, the commercial output of the more popular art forms.I would argue that those who are free are those who are most interesting, regardless of social status.

As for the cult “artist” I think part of their appeal is that of giving people a sense of being part of an elite, replicating the traditional role of the artist as a tool of the upper classes. Creativity is a tool by which the “artist” maintains his (most “artists” are upper or middle class white males) sense of otherness/mystification. Creativity/innovation is the means by which the “artist” constructs his heroic appearance, and turns art into a specialised lifestyle.
 
 
Rage
01:19 / 07.08.02
A lot of the shit that I'm into is "cult," and I'll even admit that in the beginning of my underworld residence I was attracted to some of my culture because I knew it was culture.

But this was all based on what I'd heard from my friends, zines, and websites. Recommendations, and all that.

I think the term "cult" is all good, as long as we're playing the relativity game.

IMHO, the problem starts to arise when "cult" beomes more than a relative classification. I'd like to know who exactly is this man who's determining what movies are "cult" and putting them into that labeled video section.

I dread the the day when "cult" is a musical genre that has its own section at Virgin Records. Or when "cult" becomes a subculture similar to "indie." Someone shoot me, please.
 
 
Sax
06:33 / 07.08.02
That's exactly what it already is, Rage. If you go into Brit bookseller chain Waterstones, they generally have a table handily labelled "cult reading" with your Thompson and your Mindwarp and your Clockwork Orange. Which is precisely the same as an "indie" section in Virgin.
 
 
Rage
21:07 / 07.08.02
The end times are a-coming.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:26 / 07.08.02
Ahem.

So, is this a sign of the end times? Or, more precisely, is the fact or supposition that the "cult" status is a process whereby the author can be placed in a specific commercial area a sign that the value of actual words is being downgraded in favour of these denatured "aspirational sales unit shifter areas", or is it simply the same as it ever was? Marlowe and Byron, to name but two, got about a bit, and have arguably survived in a fashion utterly disproportionate to their abilities...
 
 
No star here laces
09:42 / 08.08.02
Well, in a particularly foolish presentation I penned as a callow youth as yet unversed in the ways of corporate fuckery, I once declared something very similar to the marketing peeps down at a well-known snack food brand.

The suggestion was that 'youth culture' as a commercial and cultural phenomenon had been replaced by 'subculture', with all the inherent implications of parallel as opposed to serial effects. Companies, in recognising that 'youth' now appealed to all ages were now wise enough to start marketing to specific subcultures. You can see this in that about 1-2 years ago the 'raver' archetype in youth advertising began to be replaced by the 'rocker' archetype in some, but not all, commercials. The point being that different advertisers are choosing which demographic they'd rather appeal to by their choice of subcultural representation.

These days I think it's more complex than that, but there's a grain o truth in it somewhere.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:32 / 15.08.02
Oooh! Lots of stuff here! Why have I only just spotted it?

My current feeling - not that I am a cult writer - is that as a writer, and indeed as a person, I am pretty much a sort of a search engine/ site of intertextualities (this is why I quote so much and write fanfic: it's interesting because those two things are, from my POV, very similar but one is denigrated as intellectual heavy-gunning and one is disqualified as non-intellectual slumming, which might fit into the 'cult'/'proper' distinction at some point...)

Ahem. Anyway, a friend of mine parodied/summed up cultural-studies methodology as "I know it's true because I thought of it in my head", recently, which is perfectly legitimate if one thinks of "my head" as "a site in which various memes are brought together to generate new and hopefully interesting/complex new memes or combinations thereof". Possibly the cult of the artist is currently in a transitional phase between the modernist (broadly speaking) idea that art has value because it allows the expression of a unique inwardness, and the more postmodernist notion that the artist is a machine for processing the zeitgeist? So Gaiman is venerated as the site which produced the works of Neil Gaiman, but this involves the venerator in a relation to the actual, physical site that produced the work, ie Gaiman-the-person.

It's kind of like some of the arguments in the 'feminism & the scientific method' thread: does the colour of shirt Gaiman's wearing affect the product of his labour? How is the laboratory that produces the works of Gaiman to be defined?

Oh God, I'm going all The-Fictive-Body-y. At this rate I'll completely invalidate my own life. I'd better stop.
 
 
Persephone
21:18 / 15.08.02
Very sexy, Deva.

I wonder, is anyone going to be able to make anything out of the idea that this mechanism operates more particularly for a certain class of work--i.e., cult work? I honestly have been thinking about this --on and off-- since the thread started, and every time my brain turns to quicksand. I'm still stuck on what is cult, and maybe needlessly so. On the one hand, I think cult is a label that marks something different from mainstream and it's perfectly fine with me that both of these labels will always shift. E.g., is Star Trek cult or mainstream? On the other hand, "cult" also brings to mind certain attitudes or behaviors --c.f., Trekkies. Although maybe that's not such a good example, now that Gene Roddenberry's dead --or even when he was alive, even-- I don't know how much Trekkies are about auteur-worship.

But is there something in being defined as "out of the mainstream" that encourages {bizarre/inappropriate} behavior?

Because besides all that, there's *just* the idea of the artist as an exchange system --regardless of genre, not excluding "proper" art at all. E.g., wherefore biographies and biographical criticism? Which you get for Shakespeare and all the way up and down the line. Which might be a lot less maddening for me to think about.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:36 / 20.08.02
Yes, this 'cult/proper' distinction doesn't make much sense to me either, Persephone...

So obviously if you take something like Trek or even Blake's 7 (hey, did I tell you all that Chris Boucher, the script editor, is going to be at the big B7 con this year? I am incredibly excited at the thought of being in the same room as him, even though it will ruin my whole fantasy that he and Robert Holmes secretly "gayed" the show deliberately...), fan groups have evolved with their own game rules regarding ways of relating to/thinking about the texts: rules which are non-monolithic and in flux, obviously. F'rex, some B7 fans believe that Chris Boucher's assurance that, although Blake definitely dies in the last episode, all the rest may or may not have died depending on which of the actors agreed to have their contracts renewed, is the definitive statement governing the bounds of acceptable speculation on "what happened next". Most of us, on the other hand, don't. (As for Gene Roddenbury - there is, as I understand, a very strong streak of auteur-worship in Trek fandom, cf huge veneration for Joss Whedon).

Non-controversial statement: different groups of people relate to texts & their creators, and construct the author-text relationship, in different ways, depending partly on what they are using a text for - Haus, your Goth Neverwhere extras who tremble when Gaiman approacheth are probably all perfectly capable of writing impeccably death-of-the-author lit-crit appreciations of the show should they need to.

My own idea, at the moment, of what makes a text "cult" is that it is generally understood to have merit according to the standards of the literary (non-fannish) establishment, as well as being a text which prompts a high level of very specific personal investment from a reader ("I thought only I felt that way! Those references are tailor-made to me! No-one outside understands how good this movie is except me!"). Some people/groups will then defend their investment in the text on the basis of "proper", institutionally sanctioned, reasoning (I spent half an hour explaining the Shakespeare references in The Lair of the White Worm to someone recently); some will understand and talk about their investment on the basis of "improper", personal/ personalized, thinking. Now there are far fewer academic or high-culture discourses able to deal with specific, individual, personal, pleasurable, highly invested ("this book saved my life!") readings of texts (Barthes, of course, bless his lovely femme heart - now Barthes would have understood me like nobody else could, and of course if he'd only known me, his life would have been so much better... so tragic... Ahem), so this kind of thinking is easily sucked into a sort of generalized relation to "celebrity".

Another theory: as someone who is primarily attracted to fictional characters and texts in general, I can more easily see, perhaps, the way that personal relationships are way overvalued in this crazy world in which we live in. So the intense emotional-erotic relation to a text that reading can produce seems as if it should be a relationship to a person (otherwise we're just being "escapist" and not "living in the real world"). Hence, stalking.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:51 / 20.08.02
Damn. You just crystallised all my thoughts on the subject. Only with more references to Blake's Seven.

Or maybe not... it's perhaps worth mentioning the peculiar relationship of daytime TV addicts to the programmes they watch... How Jeopardy can be described as a cult game show, for example, with its host venerated as if he'd originated the show and fathered every contestant.

'Cult' is dependent on the level of personal investment shown by the audience, individual or plural, not on any notion of whether it is 'proper' or not. Mastermind and University Challenge are both cult quiz shows, after all.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:14 / 21.08.02
Jack - ooh! Hadn't thought of that. That does knock my "cult as crossover zone" theory on the head rather.

Really I just popped in because I'm reading a book called Discourse Networks at the moment & it's describing the period ca. 1800 as a major epistemic shift. Talking about the production of men-as-authors and women-as-readers, and the way language was seen as the "pure transport" of signifieds from the author's spirit to the reader's spirit and... anyway, it's all very interesting, but what was relevant to this thread was the way in which it describes the relation of the feminine reader to the masculine author. It made me think of how "fandom" is usually theorized as a female phenomenon, and I wondered whether there was some genderedness in the denigration/ disqualification of a reader's erotic attachment to an author?

Here are some quotes. Bettina Brentano has been advised by her brother to read Goethe & keep notes of her reading.

Bettina Brentano took the book to bed like a beloved and discovered in the child sweetheart of the hero her own likeness. Indeed, her ostensibly so passive sensibility was bold enough to make its way from the book to its author. Bettina took her brother's advice all too literally, for not only did she write down her feelings during or after her reading, she sent her notes as letters to Weimar. The result was Goethe's Correspondence with a Young Girl*.

To write to an author and tell him that, first, he loves the women that his fictional heroes love, and second, that the undersigned is very much like these women - such writing up of one's own reading takes the feminine reading function to an extreme. All the transcendenal signifieds of Poetry suddenly acquire referents: Woman becomes a woman, the hero becomes the author, and the author becomes a man. Thus a strict application of the new hermeneutics can only lead to escalating love.

...

Johann Adam Bergk
[author of The Art of Reading, Including Information on Books and Authors, 1799] comes right out and asks "not only that we love the books, but that we extend our love to the person of the author as well."

...

As Dorothea Schlegel said of November 14, 1799, the day of her first encounter with Goethe: "To know that this god was so visible, in human form, near to me, and was directly concerned with me, that was a great, everlasting moment!" Rahel Varnhagen said of August 20, 1815, the day of her second encounter with Goethe: "My knees, my limbs trembled for more than half an hour. And I thanked God, I said it out loud to his evening sun like someone gone mad... my own dear eyes saw him, I love them!"


So Kittler might say, in answer to your question in the topic abstract, Haus, that the "cult" is a hangover of the 1800 discourse network, implicating hermeneutics and the reading of literary texts as a revelation of Spirit. Or something. I'm still in the middle of the book & I'm finding it hard to paraphrase. Thought the quotes were interesting, though.




*which I've never read - anyone got any info?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
14:34 / 21.08.02
It made me think of how "fandom" is usually theorized as a female phenomenon

As an aside, I'm curious - did you mean 'female', or 'feminine'? Is you locating fandom as physically mostly being composed of women, or of individuals exhibiting archetypally feminine characteristics?

There appears to be very little actual 'appreciation' involved in the relationship between a cult audience and the cult artist. In fact, the process of investment in the cult would appear to have other elements in common with the phenomenon of religiosity (as opposed to an actual spiritual, or cryptospiritual relationship). Specifically, as in idolatry, the cult audience (again, individual or plural) requires obedience from the cult artist. Where true spirituality requires the willing discipline of the disciple, the cult, involving as it does idolatry, requires a static discipline of the idol - my god was created by me to exist for my purpose, and shall not deviate from that purpose. The result of the idol's deviation from the blueprint established by the cult audience is usually a powerfully negative feeling, often translated as betrayal.

I'd (warily) take small issue with Deva's assertion that fan groups have evolved with their own game rules regarding ways of relating to/thinking about the texts: rules which are non-monolithic and in flux, and replace it with the suggestion that fan groups stick together in their own monolithic, static sects (to stretch the 'cult as idolatry' thang still further). For example, Deva - your own Blake's Seven example concerning Chris Boucher's edict on interpretation of the final scenes in the episode 'Blake' (and the knock-on effect on speculative fic) would show us a splintering of the fandom between those who agree and those who don't. The cult divides into two - both sides taking their interpretation of the 'game rules', of dogma, and moving forward. Presumably Boucher's posse are the traditionalists, and your own are the more Lutheran splinter group... but I might be overreaching myself... let me know if I've misunderstood your comment.

Anyway, what I'm lopsidedly trying to say it that, if the above's in any way accurate (it's only based on observation), then it's a complicit simulacrum of Spirit, and not true revelation - the cult audience constructs their own god, and therefore their own epiphanic response is also self-constructed, if not precisely always self-aware.

Well, that was crap. I'll post it anyway, but I clearly need more coffee.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:50 / 21.08.02
Active (male) artist, passive (female) reader/fan/whatever.

That simple, Jack.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
14:56 / 21.08.02
Well, not according to what I'm positing, no. In my model, the artist is passive and acted upon, where the audience is active and acting upon.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:08 / 21.08.02
my god was created by me to exist for my purpose, and shall not deviate from that purpose

Ooooh. Interesting reshuffling of the power dynamic and creator/created relationship there. Nice.

As for fandom as a female phenomenon - it's just a phrase/idea I've come across from time to time, I'm afraid: I think it's given pretty much any meaning from "empirically largely participated in by female people" (which is true only of certain fan activities particularly fan writing) to that sort of "feminine" stereotype of 19th-century women wasting their time on novels. But I'm not sure. I'm hoping others might know more about this than me.

As for the stable-unstable nature of fan discourse: my Chris Boucher example actually needs a bit more unpacking. Take me, for example: whilst I don't believe what Chris Boucher says has any authority over the parameters of my understanding/speculation, I do believe that "in reality" all the characters died in the final episode, and I don't write stories where this is not true (though I have written a couple where the events of the final ep go down differently). I have another friend who believes that they "really" all died but constantly writes speculative sequels where none of them died. I sort of meant that sets of beliefs are not monolithic or determinative of an individual fan's practice, partly because of all the different levels of slippage between "plausible in terms of BBC practice", "plausible in terms of my reading of the text", "plausible in terms of someone else's construction of events"...

Sorry, got a bit carried away there & may not have made any more sense than I originally did. Anyway, I'd agree entirely that fan game-rules can be extremely rigid, highly determined and indeed lend themselves to the policing of boundaries of fan subgroups. (This isn't always the case, though: I have a couple of friends who came to fandom from academia & keep trying to "shock" fans based on their preconceived ideas of fan norms drawn from Jenkins or Penley's academic studies - but actually, none of the fen I know get shocked by, eg, a slash story containing a het sex scene, or other ostensible "transgression" of non-existent game rules.)
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:33 / 21.08.02
See, that's interesting, because, from what you've just said (and from what Ma'at and I talked about in real life a couple of weeks ago) I wouldn't place writers of fanfic and slash - let's call it 'fandom', as you have - as part of the 'cult audience'.

All of the examples in your last post are writers of fanfic or slash... to me, that would seem to include an element of postmodern awareness of the idolatrous nature of cult artists and their work, and a desire to use that awareness to interact with the work, for one (or several) of a large variety of potential reasons. That would render the writer of fanfic and/or slash in seriously masculine colours - an aggressive penetration and reordering of the text, and resituation of the self, however temporarily, as author. Following my increasingly laboured 'cult/idolatry' figure, that moves the writer of fanfic/slash into my god was created by me to exist for my purpose. I will become like my god.

Is writing fanfic or slash a kind of attempt at a kind of narcisistic apotheosis in miniature? Honestly not trying to be wude or anything - this is really fascinating me...
 
  
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