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Plane Crash In Queen's, NYC

 
  

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Enamon
09:56 / 14.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
Of course, if someone does think like that, then maybe your dim view of human reaction is pretty apt.


My dim view of human reaction? Would you care as to explain this?

Also, I do not know how the end of my post could have infered a conspiracy. All I did was say that the Pentagon said that it knew there was a problem with the flight even though supposedly there were no "unusual communications" from the plane. My question was that if there were no unusual communications from the plane then how did the Pentagon know there was trouble? You said that a likely possibility was that someone noticed the jet dumping it's fuel and notified the Pentagon (even though I'm quite sure that if a pilot dumps his fuel he would report the reason over the air. Wouldn't that be an "unusual communication"? I mean it's not everyday that a plane dumps fuel.)

And lastly in your last post you said
quote:It's NOT OK that people died - that goes without saying;

Where as in a previous post you said:
quote:Hence, it's OK, inasmuch as anything like this can be OK. If you're in a car crash, and could've died but get away with a busted leg, then presumably you'd think you were OK, comparatively speaking.

Therefore please do not insult me by saying I have a "dim" view of human reaction. I was only replying to what you said.

[ 14-11-2001: Message edited by: Enamon ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:56 / 14.11.01
Break it up. If I have to behave, so do you guys. Taking issue with what one of you meant by 'ok' is not useful.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:56 / 14.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Enamon:
Therefore please do not insult me by saying I have a "dim" view of human reaction.
Dim doesn't always mean mentally dim, you know. I was merely saying that based on the way you'd apparently been disgusted by some responses to this event, (particularly the "ey, I don't git you people" bit) your view of humanity must not be the most positive at the moment, that's all. No insult intended.

I was under the impression that you were wondering whether there was some kind of hidden process of information-gathering that the Pentagon was privy to in this situation, based on your earlier post about communications - the mention that "this doesn't explain the F-15" also cued this thought. The jet I've already given my view on. The way I see the rest of it is this. The fuel dumping was noticed: it was reported in a small bit on the news, possibly by someone involved with the NTSB. I can't be sure, as I can't quite remember. At any rate, I imagine that the Pentagon knew there was a problem with the flight based on the knowledge that this dumping had occurred. The Pentagon would've been informed by those at the airport, I would imagine - based on their understanding of the situation. Whether this was noted by someone on the ground, or in the tower, or relayed from the aircraft, I'm not sure.

To be honest, if the mechanical problems started in the first few minutes of flight, there may not have even been time for communication to be given. Who knows? This is what, presumably, the voice recorder and the flight recorder will answer. The story suggests that "first reports" indicated there'd been no unusual communications; this may be sketchy. From the looks of it, too, the first chance anyone got to tell the Pentagon about it might've been after it went down; like the Concorde incident, this appears to have happened in a matter of minutes, so the timeline up to that point (including the fuel-dump) could've been relayed to the Pentagon in one phone-call.

But this is, obviously, conjecture, and will probably be cleared up eventually.

As regards the "ok" question; probably a bad choice of word, I admit. In terms of "possible reasons for this event to have happened", then let's say that mechanical failure is more readily palatable to an already edgy public and military than a terrorist cause. Fair enough? The latter quote was meant to suggest that, in terms of the impersonal "will this tip the world into vengeful explosive retaliation?" stakes, a crashed caused on mechanical failure or pilot error or whatever is about as OK an outcome as the world could expect. Once again; impersonal - viewing the event and its consequences, not its human toll. Bad, but it's how it'll be looked at by a lot of people, I'm certain. I think there's other posts in the thread that suggest this also, and am sure that it's not out of a lack of compassion; merely a consideration about what the possible reactions to a terrorist-blamed crash might've been.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:56 / 14.11.01
Back on the news track: the flight recorders have been found and indicate that the problems started less than two minutes after takeoff. Scary bit follows: quote:The discovery of the second black box came as it emerged that US aviation officials had issued a safety notice a month ago for the type of engine that powered the Airbus A300.

In its warning the Federal Aviation Authority called for more frequent inspections because it said an "unsafe condition" had been identified in the engine, but the order had not come into force by the time of the crash.
and quote:The General Electric CF6-80C2 engine that powered the plane has been under close scrutiny since the spring of 2000, when failures in it were reported.

Last month's FAA warning called for tougher, mandatory inspections of possibly worn parts of the engine.

The US National Transportation Safety Board had also warned that failure of these engines during flight could send hot metal fragments tearing through important control systems or fuel lines, and could cause a plane to crash.

The American Airlines plane had gone through routine maintenance tests overnight on Sunday, and investigators were checking who had access to it during those hours.

According to US law, the FAA must give a 60-day period for public and industry feedback before ordering more extensive and frequent inspections.

The 60-day period set by the FAA was to end on 4 December.
Yikes.
 
 
Enamon
09:56 / 14.11.01
Rothkoid: Thing is, I havent heard anywhere that the plane dumped it's fuel. Can you provide a link to that news story? Thanks.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:56 / 14.11.01
From the CNN timeline: quote:3:30 p.m. EST -- Mayor Giuliani, Gov. George Pataki hold news conference. Pataki says it appears the pilot "did dump fuel over Jamaica Bay before the crash, which is consistent with the pilot thinking that there was some failure." I saw it on TV - it could've been a clip of that conference, but I have the sneaking suspicion it was someone from the FAA or NTSB or something else, not Pataki that was saying it. Anyway - more if I find it.

[ 14-11-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
09:56 / 14.11.01
From my best friend's email this morning (whose dad is a pilot and who herself worked for United for 5 years)

"Crazy stuff about that plane yesterday, huh? You know I think our government shot it down. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem consistent with mechanical failure. Plus eyewitnesses saw the M-15 and they even heard the sonic boom!"

Something to consider, for me anyway...
 
 
Enamon
09:56 / 14.11.01
Well, hypothetically, if they did shoot it down (although I cannot imagine why they would do it) I would suspect they used ordinary rounds instead of missiles. That would explain the rattling sound (bullets hitting the fuselage). Then again, may be it was mechanical failure, but of what sort?
 
 
Enamon
09:56 / 14.11.01
And while we're on the matter of the F-15...

I've linked in a previous post to a Guardian UK article which stated that the Pentagon confirmed that they sent out an F-15 before the plane crash. Can anyone see if they can find any other news articles or press releases corroborating(sp?) this statement?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:56 / 14.11.01
Wake turbulence being cited as a possible cause. That could be responsible for the airframe noise.

I heard about the F-15 being in the air on a routine patrol (apparently, they've been common since the initial attacks) from a radio broadcast when it happened, and also heard it later on a TV spot. Haven't read about it -

Could the wake turbulence be from the F15? Would that engine create enough turbulence to affect a plane on takeoff? A CNN article (either the one I just linked, or the one linked at the main page suggested that the Japan Airlines plane that took off prior to the A300 had departed with the requisite amount of space between them. So where'd the turbulence come from, unless it was some freak wind-shear kind of thing?

Bingo! Google to the rescue - story here quote:Meantime, US fighter aircraft were conducting combat air patrols over New York Monday when an American Airlines jet crashed but there was no indication that they were involved, Pentagon officials said.

"We don't have anything for you in terms of military involvement," said Air Force Major Cynthia Colin, a Pentagon spokeswoman said.

Another Pentagon official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said US fighter aircraft were flying combat air patrols over New York but there was no indication they were involved.
 
 
Enamon
19:21 / 14.11.01
Ha ha I'm replying to myself!

quote:Originally posted by Enamon:
Well, hypothetically, if they did shoot it down (although I cannot imagine why they would do it) I would suspect they used ordinary rounds instead of missiles. That would explain the rattling sound (bullets hitting the fuselage). Then again, may be it was mechanical failure, but of what sort?


Well if it was shot down by bullets, I think someone would notice bullet holes in the wreckage. Also, the rattling sound lasted for over half a minute (I think). If the plane was really being shot at it would have broken up sooner. Plus there would be eyewitnesses who would say that the F-15 was flying close enough to attack the plane.

Still, I don't think this was any ordinary mechanical failure. Also, the possibility of this being a terrorist attack can not be ruled out at the present time. Still, I would like to suggest a possibility that has gone unmentioned in any media source...

GREMLINS!

 
 
Enamon
19:47 / 14.11.01
Thanks for the link, Rothkoid!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:08 / 14.11.01
Of course (speaking as one who is in a position of very little actual knowledge on the subject) if it HAD been shot down, they're not gonna tell anyone, are they?
Seems likely it was an accident... but likely doesn't in any way equal definite.
 
 
Enamon
16:13 / 15.11.01
Yeah, the "wake turbulence" explanation bothers me. The previous plane left 2 minutes and 20 seconds ago. The average time between planes is 2 minutes so this was more than enough. If wake turbulence did cause the crash then why aren't there many more such crashes happening?

BTW, check this link out:
http://software.design.tripod.com/mirror/tailfin/tailfin.htm
 
 
Enamon
16:20 / 15.11.01
http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/11/14/84523

quote:With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...


Wednesday, Nov. 14, 2001 9:45 a.m. EST

Aviation Expert: Bomb Is One Likely Cause of Flight 587 Crash

An aviation expert said Wednesday that an in-flight bomb explosion could explain why Flight 587's vertical stabilizer sheared off intact and fell into New York City's Jamaica Bay, a half mile from where the rest of the plane crashed in the Belle Harbor section of Rockaway.

"That tail coming off is very puzzling," the expert, speaking on condition of anonymity, told New York's Newsday.

"There are only a handful of ways it can come off," he explained, saying that there was either a structural problem with the tail, or something else broke away from the plane and sheared it off, "or a bomb."

Beginning Monday afternoon, when investigators said that catastrophic engine failure likely brought Flight 587 down, NTSB officials have repeatedly insisted there was "no evidence" that Flight 587's crash was anything but an accident.

But the tail section became the focus of new scrutiny late Tuesday when investigators said an inspection of the Airbus-300's two engines showed no evidence of engine failure or burnout.

"When they pulled the tail section from the water, I have to say that was quite a shock," said former Transportation Department Inspector General Mary Schiavo late Tuesday in an interview with Fox News Channel's "Hannity & Colmes."

The tail fin was pulled from the water showing no damage except for the smooth seam where it had previously been attached to the Airbus-300's fuselage.

"The tail section, to me, points to even greater problems and other problems for this aircraft," said Schiavo, who had been a leading proponent of the catastrophic engine failure theory only a day before. (See Schiavo: Mechanical Failure Likely Caused Crash.)

"When you think back to other accidents of this magnitude, if indeed this is an in-flight structural breakup of this aircraft, you don't have just a problem with the engine," Schiavo said. "You have a major problem with the airframe on this plane because the pilot trying to save the plane should not have torn the plane apart."

"I think terrorism is a possibly," the former DOT official said.

In accounts that have apparently been dismissed by NTSB investigators, witness after witness described seeing a midair explosion.

"I saw an enormous flash where the wing meets the plane," eyewitness Jackie Powers told WABC Radio Monday morning. "I don't know if it was fire or an explosion. It appeared that debris fell from the left side [of the plane]."

Another eyewitness who called into the radio station said, "The right wing seemed to catch fire and explode. The wing was on fire with a trail of smoke behind it."

"I saw the plane going across Jamaica Bay," a third witness told WABC. "It was trying to ascend and then it just exploded."

"The combination of a rattle back in the airplane [as heard on the plane's cockpit voice recorder] and the fact of an in-flight breakup indicates there was some sort of event which occurred that caused the breakup," said John Hansman, professor of aeronautics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in an interview with Newsday.

"We still have no idea as to exactly what that was."
 
 
Ethan Hawke
16:20 / 15.11.01
I kind of felt better about it when they said the engine dropped out of the plane or somehow fucked up. At least that is sort of understandable. This "wake turbulence" explanation makes me much, much more scared to fly if taking off 30 seconds early means death. How often must that happen?
 
 
Enamon
23:44 / 15.11.01
That's the point. It doesn't happen. The only planes who have anything to fear are little planes like Cessnas. And the two planes have to be REALLY FUCKING CLOSE. That's why we have air traffic controllers. However large airliners have nothing to fear from such things. Read the article above or ask an experienced pilot.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:44 / 15.11.01
Apparently, wake damage is a pretty serious thing; it happens more than you'd think - even on the ground.

First up: a brief description from this article (which admittedly is for the light-plane pilot, but is useful anyway. quote:So what exactly is wake turbulence, or wake vortex? All aircraft generate vortices at the wingtips as a result of producing lift. The heavier the aircraft and the slower it is flying, the stronger the vortex. Vortex size also increases with wingspan, and some aircraft - eg the Boeing 757 - are known to produce particularly vicious wake turbulence. The vortices descend relatively slowly until they decay or reach the ground. Typically, for each mile behind the generating aircraft the vortices will have descended between 100 and 200ft. These vortices generally persist for up to 80 seconds, but in light or calm air this period can extend up to two and a half minutes.

An encounter with wake turbulence can result in severe upset to the equilibrium of the aircraft, with rapid uncommanded movements in roll, pitch or both. Generally, the lighter the aircraft the greater the degree of upset. A Cessna 172, for example, is vulnerable to the vortices generated by a similar size of aircraft, although such an encounter will usually be uncomfortable rather than life threatening. An encounter with the vortices generated by a jet transport is, however, another matter.
It could've been something as simple as this advice (from a Wake Turbulence publication, google-cached version as I can't seem to get FAA documents on it at the moment.) quote:When departing behind a larger aircraft: Note larger aircraft's rotation point -- rotate prior to larger aircraft's rotation point -- continue climb above the larger aircraft's climb path until turning clear of his wake (Figure 16). Avoid subsequent headings which will cross below and behind aircraft (figure 17). Be alert for any critical takeoff situation which could lead to a vortex encounter. As I understand it, an A300 is smaller than a B747 - he might've left the ground that fraction too late.

Coincidentally, there was footage on the news (night before last) of a manufacturer's test video of wake effect on an airliner: I think it might've been a Boeing one - as the plane (looked like a 767) moved, intentionally, into the jetstream of another jet, there was massive wing flex and aircraft movement - it was being tossed around, pretty much.

Another thing to consider: it could've happened as a result of damage from the preceding plane on the ground. This is from this page on engine thrust hazards.

quote:Exhaust Hazard Accident
The following is the abstract of Aircraft Accident Report NTSB-AAR-71-12 written by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. It summarizes a fatal commercial airplane accident near New York City that was later determined to be caused by exhaust hazard. The report concluded that the introduction of new large jet aircraft "...caused considerable erosion along most taxiways and runways. According to New York Port Authority personnel, the products of this erosion, pieces of asphaltic material, rocks, etc., were being blown onto taxiways, ramps, and runways, making it difficult to keep these areas clean."

A Trans International Airlines DC-8-63F, N4863T, Ferry Flight 863, crashed during takeoff at John F. Kennedy International Airport at 1606 e.s.t., September 8, 1970.

Approximately 1,500 ft after starting takeoff, the aircraft rotated to a nose-high attitude. After 2,800 ft of takeoff roll, the aircraft became airborne and continued to rotate slowly to an attitude of approximately 60° to 90° above the horizontal at an altitude estimated to have been between 300 and 500 ft above the ground. The aircraft rolled about 20° to the right, rolled back to the left to an approximate vertical angle of bank, and fell to the ground in that attitude. The aircraft was destroyed by impact and postimpact fire. Eleven crew members, the only occupants of the aircraft, died in the accident.

The (National Transportation Safety) Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was a loss of pitch control caused by the entrapment of a pointed, asphalt-covered object between the leading edge of the right elevator and the right horizontal spar web access door in the aft part of the stabilizer. The restriction to elevator movement, caused by a highly unusual and unknown condition, was not detected by the crew in time to reject the takeoff successfully. However, an apparent lack of crew responsiveness to a highly unusual emergency situation, coupled with the captain's failure to monitor adequately the takeoff, contributed to the failure to reject the takeoff.
This, however, happened during a test run - what if the preceding jet had caused a similar level of damage? quote:An airplane experienced damage to the horizontal stabilizer during a maintenance engine run. The airplane was positioned for the run with asphalt extending from close to the wing trailing edges to beyond the empennage. During the high-power part of the run, asphalt lifted from behind the left engine and broke into pieces, sending large fragments into the aft fuselage and outboard horizontal stabilizer. The outboard 4 ft (1.2 m), including the elevator, was sheared off, and the entire stabilizer required replacing. The initial section of asphalt that lifted was a sheet about 20 ft2 (1.9 m2) and 4 to 5 in (10.2 to 12.7 cm) thick before breaking into pieces. There were no injuries. Seems wake damage is a concern, especially to airliners. It could well be that that's responsible.

More info, including airliner reports.
 
 
Enamon
13:18 / 16.11.01
Rothkoid: The lower parts of your message do not refer at all to wake turbulence but to damage to the airplane caused by asphalt debris. You say that in the footage of a Boeing you saw of the plane being tossed around and the wings flexing. However, in this case the wings didn't come off! What did come off was the vertical stabilizer! This is unheard of!

This news article contains the NTSB explanation:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011116/ts/plane_crash.html

Read it through carefully. Notice that they don't mention why the vertical stabilizer came off. If it came off because of wake turbulence then the wake turbulence would have to have been tremendously strong. Strong enough, in fact, to snap off the wings. The wings of the plane, however, remained intact. Well.... somewhat. Remember the engines?

Also, their explanation doesn't explain neither the rattling noise nor the explosion on the plane which was seen by numerous witnesses.

On another note, I'd like to make a comment on the "fuel dumping" thing. I have not seen information about this ANYWHERE. The only to people who mentioned it were Giuliani and Pataki and seeing no mention of this anywhere since I would assume that perhaps their information was erroneous.

Finally, if witnesses saw an F-15 in the area then why isn't the NTSB considering the idea that some wake turbulence could've come from a military jet?
 
 
Enamon
13:37 / 16.11.01
http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-amrcrash12.graphic?coll=bal%2Dnews%2Dnation


Ok, now look at #2.

If the pilot dumped fuel at that point then that would mean that the fuel was dumped right after the plane hit some turbulence. Of course, we're assuming that the fuel was dumped. If it was, then what set the houses on Rockaway beach on fire? And why would the pilot dump fuel at the first sign of turbulence?
 
 
Enamon
13:41 / 16.11.01
Interesting NYTimes article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/16/nyregion/16CRAS.html

I especially like the last part:
quoteespite witness accounts to the contrary, Mr. Haueter also said that there was no evidence of any fire in the engines before impact.
Thomas Haueter is the National Transportation Safety Board's deputy director of aviation safety.

Amazing, the same agency that's supposed to be investigating the cause of the crash is ignoring certain eyewitness accounts. Just like TWA 800.
 
  

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