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Underground > Comic Books >

Morrison and Buddhism

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06:51 / 13.07.02

Not sure where this belongs:

Having spent the last few months in Asia, I've naturally come across a lot of Buddhism. Now obviously, there's mucho Buddhist stuff in the Invisibles (the idea of non-self, awakening/enlightenment, the Buddha himself) that he interweaves with gnostic christianity, chaos magic, etc.

But the Kree Vow at the start of Marvel Boy #6 is obviously based on the Boddhisattva Vow from Mahayana Buddhism.

And Doom Patrol contains references to Zen Koan.

Any other trainspotter references?

Now this Buddhist streak is not often commented on - we all know Morrison's into his magic (was he raised a catholic btw?) but a Buddhist too? Comments?

My feeling is that whereas the chaos magic underlies alot of his writing, the Buddhism is just window dressing (a dash of Zen for exoticism) - altho I'm open to arguments the other way. Esp. from those that know more about Buddhism than me.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

07:45 / 13.07.02

Yes, I've noticed this trend as well.

I've seen recent references in his work.

In new x men Xorn is studing under a riponoche (sp?) which is a tibetan buddhist teacher, I think.

And in the Filth his main character thinks he is going through the Bardo Thardol which is the tibetan book of the dead.

His early buddhist references were mainly to zen, now its to tibetan buddhism. Maybe he is not only buddhist but changed what type of buddhist he is?

fenris23

Boy in a Suitcase

08:32 / 13.07.02

I doubt Morrison is a buddhist per se, I'm sure he used buddhist techniques, though. Buddhism is hardly oppositional to high magic–check "Liber 777" and you'll see that Al Crowley maps the 40 Meditations to the Tree of Life.

17:09 / 13.07.02

indeed. tibetan buddhism offers a coherent map of the esoterritories. it's the only eastern system to my knowledge which really digs around in the dark and dirty reaches of the psyche to the same degree as many western systems.

Boy in a Suitcase

03:33 / 14.07.02

Speaking of which, has anybody else noticed the (probably small but still noteworthy) trend of heavy-duty occultists, especiallly Thelemites, "repenting" and becoming Buddhists? (David Tibet of Current 93 comes to mind.) This is interesting to me because the only real criticisms of the occult I hear (and by real I mean criticisms made by people who clearly know their shit and have lots of experience) are either pointed criticisms about Crowley's system fucking people over or that the occult is inferior to Buddhism. What's peoples' take on this?

Professor Silly

07:38 / 14.07.02

93,
I haven't noticed any Thelemites repenting and becoming Buddhists, but then I only communicate with the ones here in Colorado and the ones further south towards Texas. In general the "heavy duty occultists" I've read of but never met don't concern me very much--who knows whether they're on to something of just crazy. However, the ones I have met all seemed pretty well centered and balanced--content with their path. The only people I've met that really seem to have a problem with Crowley are the Satanists...they don't much like Uncle Al at all.
93, 93/93

Boy in a Suitcase

08:25 / 14.07.02

I might want to clarify about who's down on Crowley and why.
David Tibet sez: "Magick is a pile of shit. Crowley was a failure at everything he did."
Gareth Knight sez: "The initiation undergone by St. John of the Cross was a very high one, and one which Crowley fancied himself to have taken. He makes much of 'The Wastelands' and 'Babe of the Abyss' and one of his groups was called the Order of the Silver Star after the title of the Tarot Trump of this Path. But initiation is not merely a question of knowing the externals of symbolism, it is a state of being, and anyone can judge for themselves the extent of Crowley's real condition by comparing his writings with those of St. John of the Cross, who achieved without any advanced knowledge of symbols, secret or otherwise, but purely by faith and spiritual will. An even more revealing and damning analysis would be to compare their two lives. It seems necessary to emphasise this, not so much for the doubtful pleasure of kicking a man who is already down, but in order to act as a warning to the many who tend to injure themselves by trying to follow the Crowley system without sufficient knowledge of the pitfalls–some of which, sad to say, seem deliberately placed, either through malice or a misplaced sense of homour."

Boy in a Suitcase

08:26 / 14.07.02

A misplaced sense of humour, not Homer, I mean. D'oh!

Nietzsch E. Coyote

08:28 / 14.07.02

I've seen the trend of occultists turning buddhist. Alan Bennet The guy who made Sepher Sepheroth with Crowley, became a buddhist. A good question is why?

Good news Grant Morrison has finally updated his site.

The Natural Way

09:04 / 14.07.02

Thanks fenris, but he did that quite a while ago.

I got excited there for a minute.

06:28 / 15.07.02

Fenris> Morrison's movement from Zen to Tibetan. Sounds plausible. After the 60s, Zen is kinda the sexiest and most culturally visible form of Buddhism in the West. It's sayings have a Philip Marlow style cool. Tibetan (from my limited knowledge) is based far more on esoteric texts (like the book of the dead) and hidden knowledge. Lots of fascinating stuff in all the Buddhist traditions tho.

06:33 / 15.07.02

glassonion> bollocks. Shivite Hinduism and Javan kebatinan both provide visions of the dark side of both nature and the human psyche. And Theravdin Buddhism also has strong elements of this.

Your comment is ill-informed cultural arrogance.

The Natural Way

07:17 / 15.07.02

Or maybe just plain old ignorance.

"...to my knowledge..." hardly qualifies as arrogance. I'm sure the onion would be delighted to know he's mistaken without all yr stupid, stressy, "I know so much more than you!", bollocks.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

08:36 / 15.07.02

sorry about the update mistake, got myself pretty excited for a moment too.

12:37 / 15.07.02

Well then, here are some links:

http://tunggal.tripod.com/sh5.htm
http://www.joglosemar.co.id/kejawen/
http://www.courses.rochester.edu/muller-ortega/rel249/siva/Shivahome.html
http://www.shivashakti.com/shiva.htm

12:41 / 15.07.02

What I find annoying on the part of many westerners, is the assumption that they've done everything better than 'the east'. I read glassonion's post, possibly wrongly, as implying that. I am very keen for others to be aware of this stuff.

The Natural Way

13:43 / 15.07.02

In hindsight I get that, but, knowing onion IRL, I can assure you he's not that way....

Professor Silly

14:50 / 15.07.02

David Tibet & Gareth Knight?

Never heard of 'em.

15:35 / 15.07.02

There's a common ground between Gnosticism, occultism and Buddhism in that all three view the trappings of day-to-day life, the *mundane* as an illusion, a veil placed between us souls and the Real Living Divine Truth of existence. Mara might not be the same as the Demiurge, but they definitely have similar job descriptions.

(added later: )
You can see where this kind of "secret, hidden truth" would make for good comic book fun, too - you could be a mutant, the heroes are waiting to spring free, there's a red world under this one, all that good stuff.

18:04 / 15.07.02

shit bitch cheers for the correction but now try some pranayama [or just hold your breath till everything goes red i love that]. some of those links are thank you ace but what i find annoying about many westerners is the assumption that things in the east what with the poverty and misogyny and all have done everything better than 'the west'. my doors swing both ways, and i tried to make clear in my original post that i by no means have a complete knowledge of terran esoteric culture

18:59 / 15.07.02

fenris writes I've seen the trend of occultists turning buddhist. Alan Bennet The guy who made Sepher Sepheroth with Crowley, became a buddhist. A good question is why?

I'm not at all sure that Allan Bennett on one end and David Tibet on the other constitute a "trend".

Magick can be scary. A very big, highly plastic universe, populated by all manner of unsuspected things; when one begins to attain a little expertise, one seems to come to the attention of all sorts of undesirable phenomena. It can be frightening, and people bail.

I still don't think it's a "trend".

Boy in a Suitcase

22:52 / 15.07.02

Well, a choice that at least three people have made, then!
(Oh. Gareth Knight is a very exhaustive writer on the Qabalah who came out of the Dion Fortune-'descended' lineage of the Golden Dawn. He mixes a lot of his personal opinions into his writing and has been roundly criticised for remarks like 'homosexuality is an aberration of nature,' but nonetheless is a good place to go for lots of info on kabbalah. David Tibet is the mastermind of the band Current 93 and was the youngest ever member of the O.T.O. when he joined it at 15.)
Here's my question, then–occultists turning Buddhist: is this because they get burned by magick, find it too scary, or is it that they just find Buddhism more effective?

03:42 / 16.07.02

glassonion> yes, i find that assumption annoying as well.

grant> so a comic biography of the buddha? or something less obvious? hmmmm.

another link between occultism and buddhism might be the absence of judeo-christian-style personal god. becoming a buddhist doesn't mean putting yourself under the authority of a supreme being.

yet another link is the emphasis on personal technique - be it magickal practice or the dharma.

Professor Silly

04:16 / 16.07.02

"Here's my question, then–occultists turning Buddhist: is this because they get burned by magick, find it too scary, or is it that they just find Buddhism more effective?"

All forms of magick and mysticism represent techniques to arrive at the "certain experience." If Buddhism works for an individual, they should pursue it--following the path of least resistance.

We've all seen the variety through G. Morrison's other work in The Invisibles, JLA,. Lots of magick, and technology, psychics, drugs,.
All various avenues of experimentation that might lead to that "certain experience." So I don't think he's necessarily showing a bias towards Buddhism, especially when one considers just how many Buddhists we have on this planet--they're the majority, really.

The Natural Way

10:36 / 16.07.02

This is such a pointless thread: yep, Morrison puts a bit of Buddhism in his comics - he's a chaos magician: they like to plunder. Buddhism's everywhere - a prime target.

Is there anything else to say?

12:44 / 16.07.02

Well, I wouldn't say this was a 'pointless thread' - it led to a fun discussion about Buddhism, and I didn't know that the Kree Vow was based on that Buddhist vow. So I learned a few things

The Natural Way

13:11 / 16.07.02

Oh, I suppose so.....

But there's only so much you can say about Morrison and Buddhism, really.

Twig the Wonder Kid

13:30 / 16.07.02

How is it possible to have a discussion on Zen Buddhism using words ?

The Natural Way

13:41 / 16.07.02

You must come here so that I can slarp you.

22:43 / 16.07.02

*giggle* Mommy, he said "slarp"!! *snort*

04:23 / 17.07.02

Prunce> Stupid it may be, but you are not under an obligation to either read it or post to it. If don't like it, don't post.

Twig> Cute but glib. You can discuss anything using words. Whether you can convey Zen experiences using language is another matter. I like to think you can try but you'll probably always fail.

yawn - thing's buddy

07:16 / 17.07.02

I'm more interested to know why Buddhism is shit.

Anyone hate Buddhism?

Anyone think its a pile o pap?

WHat's shit about Buddhism?

The Natural Way

07:47 / 17.07.02

Gibreel: it's stupid because there's nothing to say, really. If peeps wanna talk about Buddhism then it's probably a good idea to move the thread.

I dunno.... If you can find a way to keep the Morrison/Buddhism jam swinging, go ahead. I won't be rude about the nice thread anymore.

13:42 / 17.07.02

My earlier comments were aimed at the idea that an awful lot of Morrison's comic book ontology seems to borrow heavily from the Buddhist/Gnostic idea of the mundane world being an illusion: it's in Flex, it's in the Invisibles, and to a lesser degree, it's even in Animal Man.
In a way, it's a regular comics conceit: the secret identity, the truth ordinary people discover only rarely.
The interesting thing is that in comics, it's discovered through action, rather than still contemplation, generally speaking.

Twig the Wonder Kid

11:25 / 18.07.02

Gibreel>

in my understanding of the koans (as far as it is possible to "understand" them) words are sheer anathema to zen. they are what confine our understanding of the world into the limiting reality based concepts enlightment is meant to free us from.

also, the desire for enlightment excludes the seeker from actually achieving it.

(which in an ideal world would apply to political office too)

zen is so delightfully inaccessible and contradictory, which is what makes it so "cool".

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