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Question for those still trying to understand foucault

 
 
Jackie Susann
04:52 / 07.07.02
i have been re-reading the History of Sexuality, and. there is a common reading of this book, and 'social construction' theories of sexuality more generally, that says, basically: 'there has always been sex between men, and between women, but it is only relatively recently (since around a hundred years ago) that this took the form of an identity, gay or homosexual or queer (etc.) identity. before that, anyone could commit an act of sodomy; afterwards, anyone who committed an act of sodomy was considered a particular kind of person, a sodomite. it's the difference, basically, between doing and being'. this, it seems to me, is accepted as more or less common sense by most people involved in queer theory.

but that's not what foucault said at all. in fact, he specifically rules that out as an interpretation of his argument. on page 152 of HoS vol. 1, he writes 'Is "sex" really the anchorage point that supports the manifestations of sexuality, or is it not rather a complex idea that was formed inside the deployment of sexuality? In any case, one could show how this idea of sex took form in the different strategies of power and the definite role it played therein.' over the next few pages he elabourates and restates this point; for example, p. 155, 'sex is the most speculative, most ideal, and most internal element in a deployment of sexuality organised by power'; later down the page, sex 'is an imaginary point determined by the deployment of sexuality'. etc.

so my question, dear reader, is: what the fuck does that mean? i have been going over it in my head, and the only ways i can figure out to understand it are basically banal, so i don't think they are what he meant. this is the best i can do - the idea of sex artificially groups together a whole array of different kinds of pleasures. for example, john preston mentions during his time as a hustler, a certain trick who would pay him to go to a department store and handle packaged underwear, while the trick watched. there is a whole subculture for men who get off on watching women in high heels step on insects. and sometimes i like to spend a night laying somewhere men will piss on me. now, all those things are considered 'sex', but really they don't have all that much in common, either with each other or with the missionary ideal.

but so what? it seems to me that sex is something you do to get aroused, or have an orgasm. it doesn't seem, to me, to be a particularly speculative or imaginary ideal - orgasms are real, horniness is real, and most of us seem to organise certain parts of our life around them, more or less distinctly.

so what did foucault mean? some of you must have ideas about this, because it is confusing me heaps. the only insight i have been able to draw from it - something i already knew, but tend to forget - is that foucault was way, way weirder than you'd ever guess from most of his admirers. and i mean that in the best way.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:59 / 08.07.02
May I suggest getting hold of the forthcoming (October '03) issue of the parallax, entitled having sex - a post-Foucauldian, post-Butlerian, treasure trove of rippings and restitchings of the configurations of sex with the human?

I need to look up the context of the Foucault you're quoting before I get back to you. Two tiny points in the meantime:

(1) is 'sex' as an imaginary effect deployed by 'sexuality' what Butler restates when she talks about 'sex' as a reality-effect of compulsory heterosexuality?

(2) As I recall, Foucauldian sex doesn't make any sense outside talking about power - 'sex' is a 'dense transfer point' where power takes hold of our bodies (again, something like performative gender).

(3) This might be what you mean by the sorts of banal conclusions that can be drawn from this passage, but isn't 'sex' as a defined, circumscribed activity precisely one of the places where the boundaries of the acceptable, and indeed the human, are policed? Orgasms & horniness are indeed real, but power, which invests our body through sexuality, would have us circumscribe & perform them according to an imaginary point called 'sex'. Redefining sex then becomes resistive in a particular way.

It's a while since I looked at MF, though, so I'll have to get back to you on this one. I'm sure I remember him talking about the being/doing binary at some point - when he's discussing confession, isn't it?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
07:09 / 09.07.02
S, I don't think he's talking about practices here, which maybe makes it a helluva lot clearer; he's talking about an idea of sex. 'Sex', as Deva says, might be defined as the limits of the possible inside that particular power network. Obviously there is a conception of sex which operates where some things are thought of as possible and some aren't, no? I think that's what he means...

And also it's whorthwile thinking about whether he's talking about sex as in biological gender rather than practices, or the kind of sex you can 'have'?
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:19 / 10.07.02
to my understanding, the model of power foucault is working with in HoS would make it impossible to think of power 'taking hold' of our bodies; power doesn't 'invest' our bodies, but acts as a force in their constitution; the production of sexualities doesn't proceed by 'policing' boundaries. i agree, on the other hand, that 'foucauldian sex doesn't make any sense outside talking about power' - this is precisely my problem, because it implies (doesn't it?) that prior to the formation of a historically specific organisation of power relations, sex didn't exist.

maybe i'm answering my own question here - sex means something different outside the history of contemporary sexuality?

blah blah it seems to me that both of you are responding as if foucault was saying that 'sex' operates as a restrictive or regulative category within the deployment of sexuality. but i don't think that's the case at all; that's the argument he's trying to avoid, the return of the repressive hypothesis at another level (sex rather than sexuality).

i don't know butler well enough to grasp the point of that reference, deva.

and Mr D, i think it's singularly unclear whether foucault is talking about sex acts, or sex in the sense of gender, in this passage - maybe the speculative ideal he's referring to is the fictive unity of these elements/correspondence of biological sex to particular practices?

will re-read some more i reckon.
 
 
Gibreel
10:13 / 10.07.02
OK, my shot at it (hampered by lack of original text to hand):
Rather than privilege the sex act as 'natural', he positions it with the webs of productive power/knowledge. But they are also a kind of 'limit' experience (I'm thinking of Bataille's notions of eroticism here). Institutionalised discourses on sexuality present penetration or the moment of orgasm as normal or foundational, when in fact this attention ensures they are the most 'produced' or 'processed'.

Which might be the 'banal' reading you are refering to DCP.

>but so what? it seems to me that sex is something you do to get >aroused, or have an orgasm. it doesn't seem, to me, to be a >particularly speculative or imaginary ideal - orgasms are real, >horniness is real, and most of us seem to organise certain parts of >our life around them, more or less distinctly.

But just because something is real that doesn't stop it being the subject of speculation or imagination. Or idealism. Or regimes of knowledge/power for that matter.

You can't have an orgasm outside history (either your own personal story or the wider social context, yadda yadda yadda).

>prior to the formation of a historically specific organisation of >power relations, sex didn't exist.

Well the power relations create those forms of sex, whatever they are. So yes. But there are always power relations, no matter if you have sex in the stone age or on the moon. So power always feeds into the (re)production of sexual activity.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:35 / 10.07.02
on further re-reading, the sex acts-sex identities reading is grounded in the text, specifically, a couple of well-known passages on p 43, i.e., 'sodomy was a category of forbidden acts... The nineteenth-century homosexual became a personage' and 'the sodomite had been a temporary abberation; the homosexual was now a species'.

on the other hand, this seems to be part of a general movement of the text, which formulates a problem in a particular way only to move beyond it. for example, HoS starts with Foucault repeating the 'story' of the repressive hypothesis; criticising this model, he talks about the putting of sex into discourse; criticising this model, he talks about the discursive constitution of sex, etc. so although, at one point, he poses the transition 'into' sexuality as one that goes (roughly) from isolated acts to identity (via the internalisation of 'truth' produced by a scientific-isation of the confession), by the end this is all in question...

more thoughts: the only thing foucault alludes to, which might form a model for thinking outside the 'speculative ideal' of sex (is that even a goal?) is the conjunction or 'network' of 'pleasures and powers' (i.e., 46, although this and similar formulations recur). around this point he also suggests that sexuality takes basically architectural forms, and when he talks about the proliferation of sexualities these are formed as much around particular ages and locations as object-choices - the sexuality of children, but also the sexuality of schools, of prisons, etc. in this sense it seems easier to think around the speculative ideal of sex, which i guess is basically a naturalising function which decouples sex from the material conditions within which it occurs, turning it into a transhistorical (trans more or less everything, really) event...
 
 
Shrug
12:33 / 04.05.07
*bump*

If one had to write about Foucault's "discourse" (and I do) where would one begin?

I haven't been given a further remit or structure but given the length and breadth of Foucault's writings it would be a little bit exhausting to dive in blindly.
Ideas?
Pretty, Please.
 
 
Shrug
13:12 / 04.05.07
That is to say, I'm largely uninformed regarding Foucault and some hints as to which essays I should even be looking at to get to grips on the complexities of discourse would be wonderful.
 
 
Ex
13:22 / 04.05.07
There's two pages of numbered points in History of Sexuality Volume I on what discourse is and isn't - I'm afraid I can't remember which pages. Will return this evening. Nudge me by PM if I forget.

His ideas may, of course, evolve in other directions in other texts...
 
 
Shrug
13:44 / 04.05.07
Cheers, Ex.
That'd be extremely cool of you.
 
 
Ex
20:59 / 09.05.07
Righty ho - I have the Penguin edition, but you may not, so I'll go with chapter titles rather than page numbers.

Part two, Chapter 1 is a good laying-out of his argument about discourse ('The Incitement to Discourse'). Then he comes back in Part 4 Chapter 2 ('Method') point 4: 'Rule of the Tactical Polyvalence of Discourses'- there's a couple of pages there which say 'it's like this, not like this.'

And this is his thoughts on sexual discourse - I seem to remember, though the hour grows late, that it may not be generlisable to other discursive arenas (such as mental health or law and order).

Have fun!
 
 
Shrug
15:37 / 12.05.07
Have fun!

I actually am doing! Cheers for help, Ex!
 
  
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