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Shamanism help

 
  

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Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:56 / 03.07.02
We all know that the good Lothar Tuppan has left us, and good for him if he felt it neccessary. Unfortunately, he was the guy I went to for advice on Shamanism, as he obviously had more experience than I did.

So here's the deal: I got questions. Lot's of 'em. I'd like to get a discussion going on, but I have to be sure that some people are willing to share some knowledge. I'm not asking for anyone to reveal anything that was asked to be kept secret. I just need to hear about some other experiences to make sure I'm on the right track. Anyone up for it?
 
 
Seth
18:08 / 03.07.02
Most definitely. In fact, I need a good kick up the ass in this respect, as I haven't set aside time to journey in a while. I can't promise to be able to answer any of your questions, but I'll happily second your need for this thread.
 
 
Sebastian
19:38 / 03.07.02
Okay, fire away then, though I do not intend to take anybody's place.

I have many books on the subject, from the crappies to the capital ones, I attended seances of a woman shaman here, and else. I'll be glad to go back to this subject.
 
 
Sebastian
19:40 / 03.07.02
And by the way, there is a personal synchronicity about this thread being opened.
 
 
Wyrd
22:21 / 03.07.02
Shamanism is where I got most of my foundation training in this lark.

Ask away, and I'll do my best to answer.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:15 / 04.07.02
Sweet. Awright, here we go:

First off, is it a good idea to eat/drink anything someone gives you while journeying? What about recieving various objects from beings in the otherworlds? Should I take them and thank the giver, or just politely refuse? I'm talking about beings that are not nor ever have been one of my spirit guides, the random encounters with seemingly friendly folk. Should I just trust the judgement of my spirit guide in these situations? What if she's not around for some reason?

I have plenty more questions, but not the kind that are best discussed on a message board. I have decided to PM all of you to discuss some of the more private topics, so check your messages. The above questions are cool to talk about in this thread, though, so any answers are welcome. Thanks!
 
 
Seth
05:37 / 04.07.02
Thanks for the PM, Johnny O. A reply will be heading your way shortly.

How about we use this thread to in the same way as the Modern Magic thread: as a way to plan exercises and kick start our development a bit? It makes sense to me to keep something like that going on site, and keep the discussion of anything too personal to PMs.
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:55 / 04.07.02
This is a great idea for a thread, count me in.
May be worth checking the Shamanism essay I discovered here
 
 
angel
10:22 / 04.07.02
Me too please.
 
 
Wyrd
11:08 / 04.07.02
Hi Johnny:

First off, is it a good idea to eat/drink anything someone gives you while journeying? What about recieving various objects from beings in the otherworlds? Should I take them and thank the giver, or just politely refuse? I'm talking about beings that are not nor ever have been one of my spirit guides, the random encounters with seemingly friendly folk. Should I just trust the judgement of my spirit guide in these situations? What if she's not around for some reason?

In some ways this is a difficult one to answer, but it's also simple. A lot depends on the context. Eating/drinking something you have been offered depends on who is doing the offering, and the situation you are in. It's good to be wary about this issue, but all I can advise you is to trust your instincts. Refusing food could be considered an insult, but in another situation it might be a test, and refusing is the right thing to do. If your Guide is with you and you can just give her a quick glance to see if she agrees. You can generally trust your guide to give you correct and proper information - though, like even your best friends, they can occassionally do something in their best interest, so don't hand over total control to them. Treat them as an advisor, someone who knows more about a certain subject (journeying, spirit realms, spirits, etc.) than you do. It doesn't make them better than us, it's just they know a great deal more than us about the protocols in these realms (after all they live in them).

If your guide is not around, then, like any situation in life, you have to trust your own gut instinct. A lot of the time in life we learn to disregard our instincts, and part of the work you do when you work shamanically is to dust off your instincts and learn how to use them again effectively. So, sometimes you will get into situations where you will have to make a judgement call like this without any external help. That's to help you learn from the experience.

I hope that makes some sense!
 
 
Sebastian
12:06 / 04.07.02
Lets see. Wyrd is plain right. I can add that I have eaten plenty of stuff out there. The best was sort of a plasma "cheese" that a sorceress gave me and made me awake wonderfully, but I didn't know much about what to do next,it was sort of invigorating and that was it.

I have also found myself on repeated occasions at dinners of some sort eating what I believed were shrimps and at closer looks it was pretty noticeable they were living cockroaches. As disgusting as it may sound, I simply could not turn them down because it was some sort of polite offering from "Spirit Cockroach" to which I felt no disgust but some sort of selective kinship, and I have ingested them many times since. Of course, this was coupled with spontaneous responses of tolerance to cockroaches in waking life, and I have hardly ever killed one since. Fortunately I do not see much of them at my present home (two a year or even less), because my wife always demands that I kill them, while I just let them hang by or point them the way out. This is a big salute to Papa Cockroach.

I strongly recommend to trust your own gut instinct (Wyrd), and sometimes you will literally have no choice but to refuse and run away from certain things that may intend to get in your mouth, as you will notice from your very evident physical reactions. I don't need here to say "pay attention if you feel a disgusting nausea", because it will typically be so overwhelming that you'll have no doubts about the "do not let that thing come inside!" body reaction. Afterwards, make a strong, confident statement that you do not want to run into such a disgusting thing again while journeying out there, and once confidence settles forget about it and go get a good steak.
 
 
Rev. Wright
14:30 / 04.07.02
Eat Me, Drink Me
Ask Alice about consuming offerings whilst journeying
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:55 / 04.07.02
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Here's a couple more questions:

How does one go about becoming more sensitive in the otherworlds? By sensitive, I mean activating all the senses. My vision is fine, but the sound goes on and off, and I have to use a little concentration to smell. Taste, oddly enough, is never a problem, and feeling surfaces isn't too difficult. For instance, my power animals are two different species with different textures in fur, and I can feel the differance if I have a hand on both.

So what kind of exercises can I try to sort of boost my hearing or smell in the otherworlds? Or is it just a matter of becoming more aware of these senses in normal consiousness? I've read about this idea before, and it sounds about right. But I have a pretty well trained ear already because of my musical education, and I can't imagine why my hearing would suck so bad in the otherworlds.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:58 / 04.07.02
I have also found myself on repeated occasions at dinners of some sort eating what I believed were shrimps and at closer looks it was pretty noticeable they were living cockroaches.

Good lord. I can see Shamanism is never going to get boring.
 
 
Wyrd
21:37 / 04.07.02
Johnny: So what kind of exercises can I try to sort of boost my hearing or smell in the otherworlds? Or is it just a matter of becoming more aware of these senses in normal consiousness?

That's not necessarily important. Think about it, you're talking about five senses that were developed for our physical world. They may have no relevance at all in other realms, other than it's just the way we are used to receiving information.

Many people never "see" anything at all when they journey. Some people only see colours, others only hear things, and some might smell things. The important thing is that you get the information that you are meant to get while in the other world. Not whether you can get it in dolby sound and Ultravision.
 
 
ciarconn
21:43 / 04.07.02
The way(s) you perceve depend on you, both on this side and on the others. The perceptual capacities and incapacities you experience are related to inconscious desires and orders, thus, they imply information that can be useful to you. Perception (on all sides, this and those..) is learned, you only hvae to try to "remember" how to perceive... if that's really what you want
 
 
Seth
05:16 / 05.07.02
Johnny: It may be that you find it so hard to hear while journeying because that particular sense is so well adapted in the waking state. I know it's a different field, but in NLP books they describe entering an altered state of consciousness as using different representational systems than the ones which dominate (focusing on sight, sound and kinesthetic systems). This would also explain why everyone's journeying experience is different, because everyone typically represents in different systems on different occasions.

As far as what to eat and what not to eat while journeying, what if the object that makes you react in a negative way (fear, disgust) is precisely the item that you should munch on (apologies if this is a dumb beginners question)? There are times that I've encountered things in altered states that have required reintegration, and several of them have produced negative reactions in me at first, sometimes for fairly obvious psychological reasons.

My experience (at least so far) has been roughly what I wrote about in the Shamanic Journeys and the Self thread. It seems that a different part of myself takes over the decision making while journeying, and that part is significantly better equipped to operate in that realm. I quite often sit back and watch to see what I do (which regularly surprises me), only using my conscious mind to maintain my intent. While I don't necessarily trust my conscious instincts in the Otherworld, when I try not to interfere with my natural actions things have always tended to run smoothly.
 
 
Sebastian
14:38 / 05.07.02
As far as what to eat and what not to eat while journeying, what if the object that makes you react in a negative way (fear, disgust) is precisely the item that you should munch on (apologies if this is a dumb beginners question)? There are times that I've encountered things in altered states that have required reintegration, and several of them have produced negative reactions in me at first, sometimes for fairly obvious psychological reasons.

This is a different matter of course to instances where you literally have no choice but to run away. When you are facing something that has to be integrated, I think it is distinctively felt a clear cut ambivalence towards it. When I had the first cockroaches canapes, I was comfortably putting the "shrimps" in my mouth and biting through their crunchi carcass until I payed attention to what the person by my side was eating, definitely not shrimps. Then I looked into my hand and noticed the brownish living cockroach with its cutely thin antennas and legs -the other was still being crunched between my teeth- with a strikingly obvious division of my self. One remote, far away voice of my very recognisable "own", was yelling from distant recesses of my mind that I should be nauseated, that it was disgusting, and that I was going to throw up in matter of seconds, but to no effect, because my feelings where overwhelmingly quiet, I was at perfect ease and as I said above I felt everything was fine, and I also felt there was something "special" going on, and that it was decidedly good. So, I was dissociated indeed, but that voice in my mind could do nothing to disrupt my easiness and stress the disintegration. Of course, the particular altered state was what enabled me to experience such a twist of consciousness to eat cockroaches, something I would never eat in waking life, but that's precisely what altered states are for.

So, if you are facing something you have to integrate, my take is that you will only know for yourself if the time has come, while you are there in the situation. Check if your own feelings of appreciation and well-being overpower the feelings of disgust and make them pale and recede, I guess that's the indication. If fear and revulsion persists, I would advise not to force things -and I don't think you'll be able to force them anyway, the body has a powerful instinct and ways of signaling of what should be done in those states, as expresionless also indicates above. Notice that there are reports of life long "separations" in dreams and journeys, and at some point in time, even after years, the individual becomes ready to integrate.

Back to other type of less happy encounters, from my experiences and readings, I do think there are many things out there that would love to find a comfortable warm nest and shelter inside your own being, without having to pay any rent back for the goodies, and ready to move to the next shelter once your legs are plain stiff, and unless you are the same kind of chap -you? a Barbelither?-, it is likely you will perceive them as nauseating, threatening, and quite real cosmic parasites.
 
 
Seth
16:24 / 05.07.02
I guess my experience is to rely less on feelings (which is also my experience in ordinary reality). My instinct seems to come from a place that's at a deeper level than my emotional reactions, and sometimes it can be quite difficult to listen to it over all the internal chatter from thoughts and feelings. The best way I've found to strengthen my ability to draw on this resource is to practise meditation and stillness. Divination without an external system or framework is also a good way of training your inner ear, as you have nothing to fall back on and there's still someone there waiting for guidance (nothing like a bit of pressure to aid performance).
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:31 / 06.07.02
Great answers all. Thanks!

Has anyone tried using various drugs to assist them in journeying? One of my first successful journeys was under the influence of DMX (Conviently found in a bottle of extra strength Robotussin. Drinking an entire bottle will produce a pretty decent trip along with a starling amount of vomit), which sort of improved the reception for me. Before then, journeying had always been pretty clouded and nebulous, making it difficult for me to get anything done. I started a thread about it, but I can't seem to find it at present.

I don't like using DMX anymore, as the side effects are simply not worth it. Plus, things always look and feel a whole lot darker with DMX. The otherworlds are always under a night sky, and there's little light anywhere. Strange.

I haven't needed any chemical help recently, so I stopped experimenting with drugs in regards to Shamanism. The other night, though, I was with a couple friends and we decided to grab some MDMA (ecstasy, or E, or X, or rolls, or beans, or whatever). After chilling at my friend's house for a while, we decided to hop in another guy's car and listen to music (mostly rap and hip-hop).

So dig this: there's a lot of bass going, and on E you can really feel the sound. I decided to give journeying a shot. I didn't think it would work very well, because the heavy beats weren't steady. As a friend of mine once noted, a lot of rap and hip-hop beats are nearly identical to old jazz beats except upsidedown and backwards, so I figured it wouldn't work. I was lolling my head about to a steady beat, though, and there I was, crunched up in the back seat of a tiny car, ready to journey. I hadn't eaten for a good while, so I sort of lucked out there.

The minute I closed my eyes and tried to draw up a tunnel--wham. A tunnel pops up, all sorts of different colors (which was new), and I shoot down it. It was nearly effortless. Journeying was incredibly vivid, in any way you could ever want, and incredibly easy. I recommend giving it a try. I would describe in greater detail what it was like, but I'll save that for the PMs.

So: Has anyone tried using various chemicals to aid in journeying? Which ones? To what degree of success?
 
 
Wyrd
00:33 / 07.07.02
I would have a general suggestion to anyone starting to journey: don't use drugs.

This is just from my own experience, so I'm well aware that it might not be the best advice for everyone. When I started working shamanically many years ago I did so without the aid of any drug whatsoever. Why I suggest you start this way is that you will learn a great deal about altered states, and how to control them, from the ground up. Basically you're building the right muscles to enable you to journey. It takes regular effort and discipline, but the payoff is that you will be able to journey at will, without relying on any substance, whenever you so wish.

Now, in the past couple of years I've worked with several different kinds of mushrooms, as well as weed, in order to access specific altered states of consciousness. Mostly because I was instructed to do so by my Allies. Each time I did so in ceremony, with respect for the Plant Teachers who were assisting me. Plus, each time I had access to either plants I had harvested myself, or knew they were very high quality and had been treated well.

My last working with mushrooms was the most mind-bending and intense I've ever experienced, and it reinforced to me that people should not take these substances unless they are sure they want to open themselves to such forces. If you are not prepared you could easily be damaged by it.

Under the influece of some drugs you are wide open, and you have a large flashing neon sign over your head, attracting all and sundry towards you. That's why the issue of learning conrol and discipline are so important. That's why you should always work within a safe environment while taking entheogens.

Have laid the ground work of achieving altered states without assistance, I've now discovered that while using drugs I have a much better ability to work with them, and to focus properly.

I have huge respect for Plant Teachers, and feel honoured that they allow me to work with them, and that I have benefited so much from their wisdom.

To be honest Johnny, I think you're pushing your luck to decide to journey on a whim, while under the influence of E, and while having no specific intent (or so it appears), and in the back seat of a car. I'm glad it worked out for you, but I would seriously suggest you take more precautions in the future - for example, having the correct environment is rather important. I also think that it's a good idea if you have a "sober" person to sit with you while do such a journey, especially if you are a beginner to this kind of thing. That means if something goes wrong (and believe me it can), someone can help bail you out.

I don't mean to come across as a fuddy-duddy here, but shamanism has the potential to be deadly. It can fuck you up as much as it can help you if you are not careful. Of all the magical "paths" out there I think shamanism is the one that can really chew you up and spit you out if you are not careful.
 
 
Seth
13:37 / 07.07.02
You don't come across as a fuddy-duddy, you come across as wise and passionate.

One very important safety device in journeying is the ability to stop the ride when you want to get off. I've experienced things that have ranged from unsettling to terrifying, and even without mind-altering substances the effects once continued for quite some time after I returned. If your journey is being "enhanced" by substances that cause physiological effects beyond your control, it's that much harder to make a strategic withdrawal.

Yeah, I know the anthropological studies are filled with accounts in which initiates get blasted off their tits for several days, and it's a profound, life altering experience. However, there's almost always a footnote that reads, "This is fucking dangerous. You could go mad, enter a fever and become seriously ill or die, or harm yourself and other people." I know the stuff you've described isn't exactly maikua, but it may be advisable to explore what other techniques can do for you, too.
 
 
Sebastian
19:49 / 07.07.02
I am with the kuddos above on using drugs for journeying. For the times I have been under an obvious threat while journeying out there, the most secure run away route is to jump up with my physical body back to full waking consciousenssstate and state a powerfull intention of not going back to that situation again, whatever it was. Its like calling the guys in the Enterprise, "TAKE ME BACK NOW!!". I doubt I would be able to do so on drugs, especially with those effortless-WHAM! tunnels JohnnyO mentions. I have created such pop-up whammy "bifurcations", as I like to call them, but have always mistrusted the way they seem to suck you in. Brrrrrr.

As for the "great escapes" of my journeys, once I met an entity that was like an automaton image of my grandma. The being kept following me as if I where drawing it with a magnet, and I didn't dare to let it touch me. As I didn't find any evident "bifurcation" that would suck me outta there, just more and more convoluted corridors in the same landscape, I snapped back to my body by simply stretching fingers and legs. Point is the crap followed. I immediately felt a burning paresthesia in my left leg, and my girlfriend's cat who happened to be there, shrieked to something at my feet, and ran out of the room. Needles to say, I was immediately banishing the crappy visitor with pure bright Sun light, full volume happy John Coltrane, and my heartiest best wishes.
 
 
SMS
02:20 / 08.07.02
Would anyone mind PMing me info on what these other techiniques for journeying are? Or post here if it seems more appropriate. Or e-mail me if you have the address.
 
 
Wyrd
11:51 / 08.07.02
SMatthewStolte, this is a huge area, and it would take too much time to write up such a section.

I'd suggest to anyone who is serious about working this path that you start reading up on the subject. There are many books out there that will give you the basics. For example:

Matthews, Caitlin, Singing the Soul Back Home : Shamanism in Daily Life
Heaven, Ross, Journey To You : A Shaman's Path To Empowerment
Fries, Jan, Visual Magick: A manual of Freestyle Shamanism.

I particularly recommend Caitlin's book for newcomers. Don't take everything they say as gospel (though I'm sure I don't have to say that to most of you), but on the whole they're pretty good. The Fries book will give you a different perspective on things, and may appeal to those who dig chaos magic.

You should seriously consider going to a workshop on the issue if you really want to advance. It's not so much that you have to have someone telling you what to do, but it will give you a perspective on your experiences that is outside of your own head. If you're doing it all on your own that's a major disadvantage. Also, it brings you into contact with people who also work this way, as having a physical support network that you can go to when you feel like your head is being turned inside out is always helpful.

Here's some web sites to check out:

The shamanism FAQ

I highly recommend Metista, especially their articles on shamanism.
 
 
Sebastian
12:21 / 08.07.02
I highly recommend Metista, especially their articles on shamanism.

InTeresTinG!!! Thanks Wyrd, you've made my read for the day.
 
 
Seth
22:18 / 08.07.02
I started on Michael Harner's "The Way of the Shaman," which I found to be particularly solid and without the wishy washyness that's characterised a lot of other stuff I've seen on the subject. Has anyone here read Mircea Eliade's "Archaic Techniques of Ecstacy?" Definitely one I fancy grabbing the next time I come across it...
 
 
Wyrd
00:42 / 09.07.02
Expressionless - yeah, Harner's book is OK, but I think it's too academic in tone, and a little dry. I came to it after I was working shamanically for nearly a year so perhaps it depends on when you encouter the work. Mircea Eliade's book, again, is an antropologist writing for an academic audience. It's much drier than Harner's book, yet there is plenty of information in the book, and it's very much seated within the Siberian context (which I enjoy).

Personally, the books I get the most out of are not the "how to" books (though we all need a couple of them to start), but the "what happened" books. I enjoy reading about people's experiences with shamanism, and in as many different cultural contexts as possible.

I'd recommend John Perkins' books The World is as you Dream It, and Shape Shifting (his Dream Change Coalition site is pretty good too: http://www.dreamchange.org/); Tom Pinkson, The Flowers of Wiricuta (to be found at: http://www.nierica.com/); Malidoma Somé, Of Water and the Spirit (http://www.malidoma.com/); Olga Kharitidi, Entering the Circle; Doug Boyd, Mad Bear; and even good old Castaneda is worth a read.

When I read some of the above books I'm always amazed at how mind-mending shamanic experiences can be. I'm not alone in my madness I guess.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:06 / 09.07.02
I came across this book in the local library some time ago and have been working staedily through it.

The Soul of the Shaman: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities by Daniel C Noel (ISBN 0-82644-1081-2)

It folows the generation of neoshamansim within Western culture, through the fictional writings of people such as Marcea Eliade, Carlos Castaneda and Micjael Harner. I discusses teh important role taht fictional anthropology has create a spawning of shamanism/medicine lore. It will, when I get to the end, discuss the use of Merlin as archetype and teacher.
I found it incredibly insightful to the nature of and recreation of shamnaism within the West.

DRUGS

I have used and not used and from my experience a Benny Hill (E) is a crap wayt of journeying long term, due to A. Contents of said tablet are unpredictable and dodgy (thats why I rarely touch them for recreational use) B. Brain Chemistry gets really fucked up by their use, long term (Pas the St. Johns Wort) C. MDMA, if its even in the pill, is more comforting than journeying.

I suggest shrooms and weed, with an occaisional nod to Tequilla.

Strengthen the mind with meditation practice and a trusty item.
 
 
Seth
13:52 / 20.07.02
Been thinking that we need to keep this thread going: it's too useful to let slip.

Are any of our more experienced shamanic members willing or able to contribute the requested exercise in basic journey techniques? If not I'll give it a stab, but it'll take a while to collect my thoughts. Obviously any techniques will have to contain some safety principles, too...
 
 
Rev. Wright
10:08 / 21.07.02
Just had to post something about it, but I scored some fresh Copal incense from two South Americans who had just performed an ancient Aztec ritual (minus bloodletting) at Buddhafields. Sweet sticky Copal, gorgeous.

I bring this up here, due to my prefered use of Copal, for banishing negativity and creating sacred spaces for practice, such as journeying.
 
 
pacha perplexa
08:32 / 09.08.02
Bumpity-bump.

I have journeyed for the first time in my life. Can't actually put into words, but was very, very interesting, and I wanna go back - especially because I was afraid when the underworld started pulling me towards the unknown (didn't think I was ready), so I didn't go any further into the abyss.
But I have a question. What do you do when you find weapons? And do they have symbolic meanings? Can they be considered "gifts"?
I found a dagger in my garden (a hill in the middle of the highlands, with a tiny cave in it. Inside the cave there's a stone seat for me) on the grass.
 
 
Sebastian
13:15 / 09.08.02
What a great thing Pacha! Out of curiosity, let us know about the set and the settings, if you consider approppriate.

As for weapons, you'll find a lot of bibliography on the symbology, but remember that in those places subjectivity rules, and inter-subjectivity will remain zero unless you take one of us to that hill, so no one can tell but you, and I would add experiment with what goes through your mind, 'cause whatever you initially think a thing is, it is much likely that there it is not.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:35 / 11.08.02
My experimenting with drugs and shamanism continues. I've finished with MDMA, because 1.) I believe I've learned all it can teach me, and 2.) I can't take the coming-down much more. I'm done rolling, period.

I'm going to try simple stuff like weed now. Not nearly as dangerous (physically or legally), and it's something I'm comfortable with in any setting. I've been discovering more and more that shamanism is a very solitary path.
 
 
Seth
14:55 / 15.09.02
A quick, and seemingly odd question. When other people do shamanic work, do they sometimes find that statues are left in the Otherworld that commemorate what has been done?
 
  

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