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Harry Potter (Spoilers perhaps)

 
  

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Captain Zoom
19:44 / 28.06.02
So I'm a recent convert to this excellent series of books. Anyone feel like talking about them, 'cause I'm all about the speculation and chatter. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who'll scoff at the suggestion of discussing these books on Barbelith, regardless of whether they've read them or not, but I'd really like to. Any takers?

Zoom.
 
 
Persephone
19:55 / 28.06.02
Mainly I'm worried that she seems to have writer's block now.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:56 / 28.06.02
I love 'em. My little sister got me hooked, and my brother, who seemed to enjoy mocking my interest, also became an addict. I anxiously await the fifth book. I'm willing to talk, but about what? Ron's apparent jealousy of Hermoine? Future plot ideas? Whether or not anyone is going to notice that the Slytherin house is full of evil, sadistic wizards and witches?
 
 
Trijhaos
21:19 / 28.06.02
I've only read one book, I think the third(?). It's the one with Harry's godfather or something of the sort. I've got book four in my possession, not sure how it got there. It's 800 pages. Sheesh. When I was 10, 800 pages was alot, how can kids fly through this thing?

Of course, every discussion about Harry Potter has to start with this question:

"Are Harry and Hermoine gonna get together?"
 
 
Persephone
21:23 / 28.06.02
No, Ron and Hermione are. Harry is going to get together with Cho.
 
 
Captain Zoom
21:29 / 28.06.02
See, here's the thing I'm worried about. I just finished the 4th book, and there's a bit in there where Harry's relating to Dumbledore about the fact that Voldemort used his blood to stage his return, which negates Harry's defense against him, as proven by Voldemort touching his face. And Dumbledore gets a "triumphant look" on his face. And when I mention this to my Mum, who's also a big fan, she says to me that she believes that Dumbledore's going to turn out to be a villain. And now I can't get that out of my head.

I think the thing I've been most impressed with is that in the last 3 chapters of "Goblet of Fire", Ms. Rowling manages to completely change the entire world that the stories take place in. The mobilization at the end is absolutely fantastic, and serves to combat the idea of Dumbledore as villain, at least for me. Finally Snape seems to be on the side of the good guys, which was something I was wondering about for the rest of the series.

The maturity of the books is one of those things I heard a lot of noise about when the fourth book came out. With the death of one of the students at the end of that book, a lot of parents were complaining that the book was too much for younger readers. This was combatted by the notion that those who were following the series were all 4 years older than they were when it started. I'm not sure that's a line of reasoning that can be followed. The first book was a children's book, in much the same way that "The Hobbit" or "Alice In Wonderland" were children's books. Even the second, while substantially darker, was no scarier or gorier than your average Goosebumps book. But the third and then the fourth books took quantum leaps forward in the level of darkness. I wonder if Ms. Rowling realized that, rather than a series of kids books, she really wanted to write a good fantasy series that could be enjoyed by all ages. I further wonder if this is the reason that the next book (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix) is so late. Perhaps she's trying to guage what the proper maturity level for the book ought to be.

Anyway, those're my preliminary thoughts. At the risk of being ridiculed, I have to rate them as some of the most entertaining books I've ever read, and they did their job in that I'm salivating over the next one, even to the point where I'm speculating about the book just from the title.

Last thought. What did you think of the translation from book to film? It was only after seeing the film that I read the books, and I was quite impressed with how closely they stuck to the text.

Zoom.

p.s. Johnny, I think Ron's madly in love with Hermione, and vice versa. They are just 14, and I can see that kind of schoolyard crush thing happening. Especially where Hermione shouts at Ron to ask her out first, rather than as a last resort.
 
 
Baz Auckland
10:18 / 29.06.02
I thought the movie was great sort of in the same way as LOTR. It was just worth seeing to see everything transferred(sp?) to film. I can't wait to see the next ones, although I don't remember the second one all that well. The goblet of fire kicked ass, yes, especially the ending with the suspense and the looming war.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:56 / 29.06.02
My understanding is that the book is being held back until around November/December time for the Christmas/Second movie madness. Having said that, J.K. Rowling did admit to having some writers block problems writing 'Goblet' so...

I found 'Goblet' a bit too long, and a number of tiresome characters in there, like the house elves and the superfluous newspaper reporter who Rowling just put in to have a go at a tabloid reporter who had been giving her a hard time. The fact that it doesn't have an end, but just building up for the next book.

Having said that the actual confrontation was fun, and I liked the way that Harry's supposed special power against Voldemort has been dispelled (no pun intended) which will make future books more interesting.

But I've already read Philip Pullman's 'Northern Lights trilogy' and against that, Harry Potter is found wanting...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:55 / 01.07.02
Yeah - the house elves subplot is just wanky.

Harry and Cho? Nonononono... has to be Ginny Weasley, surely? But only after a lot of soul-searching and tribulation.

I think that if I were JK Rowling I would probably have writer's block right about now too... I assume she has a game plan for the whole series, though, so hopefully the problems with lacklustre endings should dissolve out at the end of book seven.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
09:00 / 01.07.02
Lada: ...and the superfluous newspaper reporter who Rowling just put in to have a go at a tabloid reporter who had been giving her a hard time...

Didn't JKR say (in a bbc doco/interview) that that reporter had been in it all along? And was in actual fact a vital character and plot point in future books? Of course, she could have been lying....
 
 
that
09:11 / 01.07.02
Well, as I understand it, the slashers would have it that Draco and Harry get together. But as even the thought of Potter slash freaks me right out, so I have not read any, and thusly would not swear to the accuracy of that last statement.

H.P. and Ginny Weasley, yes, eventually. As for Ron though - what about Hermione and Victor Krum? He seemed pretty into her - think there might be a bit of jealousy and wands at dawn and blah de blah de blah before Ron and Hermione get together...

I like the Potter books... they read well, a lot more smoothly than the Pullman trilogy, though of course the scope of the Pullman trilogy is much wider. But I think the execution of the Potter books is certainly better... the film was quite dreadful though. Booooooring. Though Ron Weasley kicked arse, and Alan Rickman was quite beautiful as Snape (though no one else seems to agree).

Dumbledore can't be a villain, surely? I wondered about the triumphant look... perhaps he just knows something we don't know that somehow makes this a *good* thing?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:11 / 01.07.02
It has been observed that Rowling can handle plot and character, but cannot actually write very well. From my reading of the first two books this appears to be largely the case. They are readable, in fact are designed to be so - the 500 pages or so of the US softcover release of HP and the Philosopher's Stone (sorry, Sorceror's Stone ) takes about three hours to get through - but the aim of each book appears to be to progress from one end of the central mystery to the other while throwing in a few more titbits for the big finale at the end - Mallory Towers with boys and pointy hats, basically - and some of the writing is astonishingly poor. I am dubious as to whether her gift for characterisation will be able to overcome that fairly major hurdle as the players get older and (hopefully) more complex.

What does interest me is the effect HP is having on the reading habits of children - one school of thought argues that Rowling is introducing children to the joy of reading and pushing up consumption of children's books in general, others that the Potter industry is acvtually taking cash away from other writers and limiting the range of children's reading (since the Prisoner of Alakazam costs as much as two or three other novels, and can be accesorised with a Gryffindor T-shirt and Hogwarts lego). I'm not sure either of these positions is telling the complete story...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:37 / 01.07.02
My guess is that HP has boosted the sales of children's books, especially fantasy books (William Nicholson, Pullman, blah blah) - but that the majority of people actually doing the buying are adults, whether they're buying for children or for themselves, and that sales of books may bear little relation to what actually gets read - especially given the appalling state of funding for children's libraries (there's quite an interesting piece in Saturday's Guardian about this, you may have seen it, will dig it out... here). The actual books themselves don't really cost any more than other children's books in the same format (where did you get that?) but I can see that children able to spend money on one book might be buying HP to the exclusion of other, perhaps better, books. Which obviously has a knock-on effect on other, perhaps better, writers...

As far as the books go, the first and second are much weaker than the third and fourth - Chamber of Secrets is actually really quite rubbish. I think the characterisation does develop as the series progresses - but really only in the way that characters in Malory Towers develop. It will be interesting to see whether this remains the case, or whether Rowling tries to broaden things out a bit. My feeling is that it would actually be a mistake to deviate too much from the style etc of the first books - which is basically fluff, but very enjoyable fluff (with a few reactionary tendencies of course).
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:58 / 01.07.02
Sinister- either your memory or faulty or it's mine. I remember her saying something was important but don't remember it as being the reporter. However, I can't remember what it is. I do remember her saying that in the next book we find out something else completely knew around the circumstances of Harry's parents deaths so I reckon she's going to reveal that Voldemort was Servalan all along.

Which would make Snape Avon...

Haus is right about Rowling not appearing to be a brilliant writer. She has claimed that as Harry grows up the stories get more complex to reflect that (book seven would be the equivelent of Upper Sixth or Year Thirteen at school) so we'll see whether the not good writing thing was deliberate due to Harry's youth or whether she really isn't much cop.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:47 / 01.07.02
I do think it's a bit redundant to get too snotty about the quality of the writing; for example, everyone knows that Enid Blyton, Elinor M Brent-Dyer et al couldn't really write for toffee, and yet they were among the most popular children's authors of their periods. I don't think Rowling makes any claims for herself as a good stylist; I think she's an entertainer, and while obviosuly the optimal children's writer would be a great entertaine and a great stylist and a profound thinker, blah blah, I don't think it's fair to castigate Rowling for being good at what she does (and having a publishing company hype her books to the stars).

For my purposes, the HP books fall into exactly the same category as Malory Towers, Chalet School books and so on - entertaining fluff, basically; just a different sort of fluff from chicklit. >thinks: thread on comfort fiction coming up shortly<
 
 
Persephone
14:48 / 01.07.02
Ha, I shall champion the Asian Cho & Kit-Cat shall cheer for the red-haired Ginny. Not saying that getting the guy is the big bingo in a girl's life.

I agree, Chamber of Secrets was actually bad. It wasn't so much that Gilderoy Lockhart was detestable as he was unenjoyable, and now I see that he is to be played by Kenneth Branagh. How strikingly appropriate.

Just out of curiosity, what does it means that JKR cannot write well? I suppose this is a question that goes beyond the scope of the HP novels --e.g., Amy Tan, I think, is a terrible writer; her sentences are just bad. Is that what you mean about JKR? Because I think she does do plot rather well, if a bit paint-by-numbers; and shit, plot's really hard.

I don't think that Dumbledore can be a villain, I think more what Cholister said. It would really be breaking the rules in an unforgivable way.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:48 / 01.07.02
Of course I say that I enjoy them, and I do, but at the same time I do think there's some rather worrying stereotyping and some nasty little ideological pitfalls in those books...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:06 / 01.07.02
Dum-bul-dor.

Vol-de-mort.

Seems pretty open and shut to me. Beats the Hell out of that incredibly contrived Tom Riddle nonsense, anyway.

What I mean by cannot write well is that she struggles as a writer. Her sentences are often like broken-winged birds, flopping in an ungainly fashion as they fulfil their basic functions of exposition and furthering of the plot. Details about characters are thunked into round holes and hammered down. Dialogue is frequently flat and unconvincing.

As for Lockhart - Lockhart sucked on every imaginable level. Utterly unconvincing as a character, profoundly annoying, his dialogue sucks donkeys and it is ludicrous that the supposedly uberwise Dumbledore would employ him, unless it's a wankety-wank "Dumbledore is sooooo wise that he knew exactly how everything would turn out and hired Lockhart because totally fucking an entire year of Defence Against the Dark Arts for the entire school was more than worth it for some as-yet-obscure benefit". There's no *need* to insult children's intelligence by pullling incredibly weak nonsense like that. Nobody else would apply for a plum job at the most prestigious magic school in Britain? Riiiiiiiight. Then why not rotate one of the current teachers into it and advertise an empty post in, say, POTIONS? For Frigga's sake...not to mention whether Lockhart would have been so quick to put himself in an atmosphere where his performance was under constant scrutiny by a boatload of far more able magic users.

So, yes. Struggles as a writer.
 
 
Persephone
15:14 / 01.07.02
Bit of a pile-up there with you, Kit-Cat, sorry about that.

Thread on comfort fiction, yeah.

Re: ideological pitfalls, I will be a little annoyed if Cho gets thrown to the side --id est, marginalized. Not that Ginny Weasley isn't perfectly nice. I do like the aspect of the HP books that some of the students are indeed not-white, but that their characters are not *about* their not-whiteness --e.g., Dean Thomas's characterization is that he's football fan. But I do have a fear that there will be a closing of the ranks, as it were... and the existence of the movie version may well push that direction.
 
 
suds
15:17 / 01.07.02
for captain zoom:
i was also thrown off by the look of triumph dumbledore got at the end of book four, the goblet of fire. then i realised that it means that voldemort is more easy to kill now that he has returned to human form. that's what i believe...i trust dumbledore all the way, dude.

if i went to hogwarts, i would be in love with ron. he is way nicer than harry, i think, and doesn't mind coming second place to other people. he is also generous and kind.

i'm not sure about this writers block of j.k's because i hear she's just going out dancing a lot. she has the whole world waiting for her to finish the next book and i think she kind of likes that. i heard she'd finished the seventh book anyway.

i am very glad this thread is here because i really dig harry potter books. i got my whole house reading them. plus, my brother has now read books one to four even though he has dyslexia and finds reading a slow and boring process.
 
 
suds
15:17 / 01.07.02
ps. snape can give me detention any time.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:36 / 01.07.02
Well, the Ginny thing is flagged so blatantly that it would be nice if it did work out with Cho instead... or if it worked out with Harry not getting together with anyone because he's infatuated with Hermione, who prefers Ron. Or with Harry being Voldemort all along.

I don't get angry or even very irritated about the ideological upsets, but I do note them - perhaps they should spoil my reading more than they do, but I hate to have my reading spoiled.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:52 / 01.07.02
If he gets together with Ginny, he'll be thinking of Ron...
 
 
Persephone
17:35 / 01.07.02
That's the truth. Harry Potter must not lose his Wheezy!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:33 / 01.07.02
Johnny, I think Ron's madly in love with Hermione, and vice versa. They are just 14, and I can see that kind of schoolyard crush thing happening. Especially where Hermione shouts at Ron to ask her out first, rather than as a last resort.

That's pretty much what most of the people I know took it as. Here's the thing, though: I can't shake the feeling that one of the three are going to die. Well, two rather, as it obviously won't be Harry, unless necromancy is going to play a larger role in the series. Rowling said that the series is going to get a lot darker, and I wouldn't be surprised to see major characters get knocked off, and it'd certainly add a darker quality to the books if either Ron or Hermione were killed. More so than, say, Dumbledore or Ron's parents. But I guess that's a bit too dark for the kids, who, as I keep forgetting, are the target audience.

Dumbledore and Voldemort? Bah. Dumbledore's no villian.

Did anyone else notice something weird about the order of the ghosts coming out of Voldemort's wand (near the end of the fourth book)? If Voldemort killed Harry's father and then his mother, shouldn't his mother have appeared before his father? Or is the crack getting to me?
 
 
Chuckling Duck
21:10 / 01.07.02
I’ve enjoyed these entertaining books except for the tedious blow-by-blow descriptions of Quiddich.
There are plenty of plot holes, but that’s part of the fun for me: coming up with ass-covering rationalizations. I rationalize that Dumbledore has been sabotaging Defense Against the Dark Arts for years, because Defense Against the Dark Arts is really Slytherin’s ploy to get the Dark Arts taught within Hogwarts. The Dark Magician disguised as Mad-Eye Mooney, for example, threw himself into the role with gusto, and managed to teach the class the three Unspeakable Curses under the guise of teaching them to defend against them. Better to have a flake like Lockheart who’s too terrified of the Dark Arts to go anywhere near them.
By the way: plucky Neville will win Ginny’s heart.
 
 
Persephone
21:43 / 01.07.02
If Voldemort killed Harry's father and then his mother, shouldn't his mother have appeared before his father?

Dude, she does. She comes out & tells Harry to wait for his father.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:47 / 02.07.02
Johnny-O - have to disagree with you about one of the three dying. Mortal danger and, no doubt, peril, yes; death, no. Crabbe and Goyle more likely to cop it (probably after redeeming themselves with an unlikely act of heroism).

Chuckling Duck - Neville, yes! You are so right!
 
 
Captain Zoom
15:14 / 02.07.02
Have another look Persephone. It's the other way around. Harry's Dad tells him to wait for his Mum. Reason and I noticed that too. Perhaps this is the thing we're going to find out in the next book about his parents' deaths.

Every now and then, Rowling's prose irks me. She'll repeat a partucular phrase twice in consecutive sentences, and while I appreciated each book might be someone's first, I think the recaps of the previous adventures could be handled a little better.

I'm with Johnny as far as Ron or Hermione dying, though perhaps not until the last book. More likely Ron. Look at the rest of his family. Ministry of Magic employees, Gringotts employee, dragon-tamer and apparently excellent inventors. But Ron's a bit of a let-down after that. In the last book he's left out when Moody tells Harry and Hermione that they'd make good Aurors. I think he'll go out in a heroic bang.

Zoom.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:29 / 02.07.02
Maybe Harry will die in the final book? Perhaps in a Last Battle style... finally reunited with his parents and so on.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:41 / 02.07.02
Dude, she does. She comes out & tells Harry to wait for his father.

Does she? I could have sworn it was the other way around. I guess it's all that crack...

Johnny-O - have to disagree with you about one of the three dying. Mortal danger and, no doubt, peril, yes; death, no. Crabbe and Goyle more likely to cop it (probably after redeeming themselves with an unlikely act of heroism).

My reasoning is that I can easily see Rowling as the kind of author who would kill off a main character, a really popular main character, simply because she had a bit of writer's block and needed some drama quick. With the death of Ron, all sorts of new roads would pop up. Harry wants revenge! How far would he go? Is he angry enough to kill? How about Hermione? Watch her go nuts and start knocking off liquor stores! Lotsa laughs.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:17 / 02.07.02
How about, like Susan in the Last Battle, Harry hitting 18 and getting sidetracked by lipstick and boys?
 
 
Persephone
21:29 / 02.07.02
Zoom, I *am* looking... I'm pointing to the broken-winged sentences and moving my lips as I read...

The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground as Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother.

"Your father's coming..." she said quietly. "Hold on for your father... it will be all right... hold on..."

And he came... first his head, then his body... tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife."


I'm not making it up!

I swear!
 
 
Captain Zoom
21:49 / 02.07.02
My humblest apologies Persephone. Now you've said it I'm wondering why it seemed strange to me. Of course James comes out after Lily. She was holding Harry just before she died.

Zoom.
 
 
Persephone
01:29 / 03.07.02
*to the men in white coats*

Thank you, goodbye now, I won't be needing you.

I can easily see Rowling as the kind of author who would kill off a main character

See now, so can I. Because I don't entirely trust her to know that, goddamnit, there's rules to this kind of fiction. I almost felt that what happened in Goblet was *almost* beyond the pale. It'll be *so weird* if this segues into something like Starship Troopers...
 
  

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