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Hmmm... arrrr... I'm sorry if I was harsh in my last post. Things just connected up with things I've been thinking a lot (too much) about, like how much responsibility we bear here in Australia for refugee policy that's basically murderous - and the press insisting everyone supports it - it just seems impossible to accept that there isn't something we could have done by now. But I guess there's not, because we haven't, but why not? And I do want to say that in some sense, people have an obligation to stop the fucked up things their governments do. And yes, of course that is to simple but - don't we? And not just 'we' fluffy progressive rad blah blah, 'we' being people, communities, whoever we are, everyday 'we'. And therefore, that it's fucking dead-on to say people are ignorant - and maybe I missed it but I don't think KoT has said the US was in a class of its own there. Ignorant northerners everywhere, including me, and part of me wants to say this ignorance is a moral failing, and I don't believe in morals much less failing them, but-- I know I'm rambling.
Crunchy -- we agree on a great many things. Particularly the role and responsibility of individuals and communities to take an active role in affecting the policies of their government. Of course, we also share the same frustration: No matter how much hand-wringing, foot-stomping, or megaphone-blaring we do, not enough people listen to get the job done. Not enough people are interested. We can't get enough attention. And, of course, the monied corporate lobbies don't make this any easier -- they always outweigh the well-organized political resistance. It's completely fucked.
We really only have one disagreement, and that's essentially over KoT's thrust -- I don't think it's quite as benign as you seem to think it is. His continuing refusal to justify his claims or elaborate on his points without descending into purely insulting rhetoric tends to further my general sentiment towards him. I think he's full of shit. But, I digress.
And, y'know, don't worry about harshness. I totally understand where you're coming from -- and I'll say, and say it again -- your harshness just isn't the same as KoT's. It's thought out. It's experienced. It has to do with actually trying to make a difference, and the walls you encounter when you do those things. I'm not defending U.S. Foreign policy, or domestic policy, or other policy -- because none of these things have been brought into the conversation in any intelligeable manner. And, if they were, more likely than not you wouldn't find me defending them.
What I am defending is essentially the masses of perfectly intelligent, change-driven U.S. residents I know, who would be discouraged and disenchanted to find people around the world assuming they're full of shit and unwilling to work with them solely on the basis of where they were born.
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It just seems like sometimes there's NOTHING ELSE TO DO except scream at people that they're fucking ignorant, they'd better fucking do something or, or what? Or nothing, they'll look bad if they don't write the history books themselves.
Ramble ends.
Yeah, I know what you mean -- But KoT is screaming at me about things I'm attempting to calmly and rationally address. While in one thread, I say "People should be aware that this anti-terrorism bill has a danger of threatening civil liberties,", in another, KoT (without bothering to avail himself of my opinions on the U.S.) hollars at me for my ignorance in allowing this bill to pass. In one thread, I clearly express a thought out and almost scientific distrust towards CNN and mass-media in general. In the next, KoT tells me I'm an idiot for believing CNN. This does wonders for his credibility.
And, y'know, back to anti-terrorism bill.
We all, of course, realize that there's absolutely nothing any of us could have done to prevent it from passing. Why? It has popular support. America is full of mothers and fathers, and they don't give a flying fuck whether or not the ACLU can operate as long as they don't have to fear for their children's lives. Of course, they'll still have to -- but they don't want to think about that.
And are these people ignorant?
No.
They just have other priorities. And if they had been informed respectfully, carefully, of the dangers to civil liberties and what this meant to the world their children were growing up in, they'd come around. But how do you think they'd respond if I said "You stupid fucking American. Can't you see? You're all such pieces of shit, and still you can't see!" -- which is the essential sentiment behind KoT's argument.
And one more note on the chilling anti-terrorism bill:
It's a fucked bill -- but there's a ticker. It's a got a sunset provision -- which means the bill goes dead after two years. Completely. Has to be completely renewed to continue operating. That's something, at least.
Ah, and I'm not done yet. On the raw ignorance of all these stupid Americans:
My mother is a good example of a successful and intelligent capitilist. She's a Division VP for a medium sized realty company specializing in leasing business park space. She makes a shitload of money and flies all over the country, just about constantly. This is a new to her, mind you -- this is the first time in her life she's known this level of monetary success.
When she saw the news about the WTO protests, she was distraught. She didn't say "Those irresponsible Anarchists", and nor did she say "Those assholes pigs!". She just didn't like seeing people getting hurt. Period.
Still, she wasn't so sure what was up with this whole globalisation thing.
So, I explained to her.
And now she has grave concerns about it.
My mother is far from ignorant -- but she had different priorities. It doesn't mean she hasn't got a healthy intellect and an open mind. And people like her simply are not as uncommon as KoT seems to believe.
Anyhow, I'm taking Flyboy's suggestion -- I'm bowing out of any 'debate' with KoT. It helps to have clarified some of my thoughts on the issue, though.
[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ] |
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