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For Those Who Feel US is Utterly Horrible.....

 
  

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FinderWolf
14:01 / 22.10.01
.....check out this article, about how we are not using torture on suspects with connections to Al Quaeda. We're not as horrible and vicious and brutal as many say we are.

from the Washington Post.

----------------------------------

How can U.S. make suspects talk?

Jailed terror suspects’ silence leads FBI to ponder new tactics

By Walter Pincus
THE WASHINGTON POST


Oct. 21 — FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated by the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional civil liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract information about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans.

















‘We’re into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking.’
— SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL
MORE THAN 150 people rounded up by law enforcement officials in the aftermath of the attacks remain in custody, but attention has focused on four suspects held in New York who the FBI believes are withholding valuable information.
FBI agents have offered the suspects the prospect of lighter sentences, money, jobs, and a new identity and life in the United States for them and their family members, but they have not succeeded in getting information from them, according to law enforcement sources.
“We’re into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking,” a senior FBI official said, adding that “frustration has begun to appear.”
Said one experienced FBI agent involved in the investigation: “We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. . . . Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we won’t have a choice, and we are probably getting there.”

DRUGS, PRESSURE TACTICS SUGGESTED
Among the alternative strategies under discussion are using drugs or pressure tactics, such as those employed occasionally by Israeli interrogators, to extract information. Another idea is extraditing the suspects to allied countries where security services sometimes employ threats to family members or resort to torture.

Under U.S. law, interrogators in criminal cases can lie to suspects, but information obtained by physical pressure, inhumane treatment or torture cannot be used in a trial. In addition, the government interrogators who used such tactics could be sued by the victim or charged with battery by the government.
The four key suspects, held in New York’s Metropolitan Correctional Center, are Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan detained in August initially in Minnesota after he sought lessons on how to fly commercial jetliners but not how to take off or land them; Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians traveling with false passports who were detained the day after the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks with box cutters, hair dye and $5,000 in cash; and Nabil Almarabh, a former Boston cabdriver with alleged links to al Qaeda.
Questioning of “the two with the box cutters and others have left us wondering what’s the next phase,” the FBI official said.
One former senior FBI official with a background in counterterrorism said recently, “You can’t torture, you can’t give drugs now, and there is logic, reason and humanity to back that.” But, he added, “you could reach a point where they allow us to apply drugs to a guy. . . . But I don’t think this country would ever permit torture, or beatings.”

A TRUTH SERUM?
He said there was a difference in employing a “truth serum,” such as sodium pentothal, “to try to get critical information when facing disaster, and beating a guy till he is senseless.”
The country may compare the current search for information to brutal tactics in wartime used to gather intelligence overseas.

“If there is another major attack on U.S. soil, the American public could let it happen,” he said. “Drugs might taint a prosecution, but it might be worth it.”
Even some people who are firm supporters of civil liberties understand the pressures that are developing.
David Cole, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center who obtained the release of Middle Eastern clients after they had been detained for years based on secret information, said that in the current crisis, “the use of force to extract information could happen” in cases where investigators believe suspects have information on an upcoming attack.
“If there is a ticking bomb, it is not an easy issue, it’s tough,” he said.
Kenneth W. Starr, the independent counsel during the Clinton administration, wrote recently that the Supreme Court distinguished terrorism cases from cases where lesser threats are involved. He noted that five justices in a recent deportation case recognized that the “genuine danger” represented by terrorism requires “heightened deference to the judgments of the political branches with respect to matters of national security.”
Former attorney general Richard L. Thornburgh said, “We put emphasis on due process and sometimes it strangles us.”
In the aftermath of Sept. 11, he said, “legally admissible evidence in court may not be the be-all and end-all.” The country may compare the current search for information to brutal tactics in wartime used to gather intelligence overseas and even by U.S. troops from prisoners during military actions.

EXTRADITION A POSSIBILITY
Extradition of Moussaoui to France or Morocco is a possibility, one law enforcement official said. The French security services were quick to leak to journalists in Paris that they had warned the CIA and FBI in early September, before the attacks, that Moussaoui was associated with al Qaeda and had pilot training.

The leak has irritated U.S. investigators in part because “it was so limited,” one FBI official said. “Maybe we should give him [Moussaoui] to them,” he said, noting that French security has a reputation for rough interrogations.
The threat of extradition to a country with harsh practices does not always work.
In 1997, Hani Abdel Rahim al-Sayegh, a Saudi citizen arrested in Canada and transferred to the United States under the promise that he would tell about the bombing of the Khobar Towers military barracks in Saudi Arabia, refused to cooperate in the investigation when he got here.
The FBI threatened to have al-Sayegh sent back to Saudi Arabia, where he could have faced beheading, thinking it would get him to talk. “He called their bluff and went back, was not executed and is in jail,” a government official said.

SOME SUSPECTS IN WITNESS PROTECTION
Robert M. Blitzer, former chief of the FBI counterterrorism section, said offers of reduced sentences worked to get testimony in the cases of Ahmed Ressam, caught bringing explosives into the country for millennium attacks that never took place, and Ali Mohammed, the former U.S. Army Green Beret who pleaded guilty in the 1998 embassy bombings and provided valuable information about al Qaeda.
The two former al Qaeda members who testified publicly in the 1998 bombing trials were resettled with their families in the United States under the witness protection program and given either money or loans to restart their lives.
Torture “goes against every grain in my body,” Blitzer said. “Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.” In the end, he said, there has to be another way.
 
 
MJ-12
14:36 / 22.10.01
Somehow I take very small comfort in the notion of serious proposals to extradite to where someone else can act as our proxy torturers.
 
 
straylight
16:06 / 22.10.01
Hunter Wolf, are you being sarcastic? I mean, really, NOT using torture gets the US a gold star? There are examples to use about how the US isn't entirely terrible - but I really don't think the fact that the govenment chooses not to use an illegal means of getting confessions is among them.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:11 / 22.10.01
to be perfectly honest, I'm shocked that they HAVEN'T been torturing suspects, and a little disappointed too, because I'd prefer for them to be efficient in a case like this than ethical, just out of practicality.
 
 
Enamon
19:47 / 22.10.01
Torture just makes the suspect say what he thinks you want to hear. Anyone remember the witch trials? Torture is one of the most ineffective ways of extracting information. Also, torture tends to turn the entire situation into a conflict. The torturer sees the tortured as the enemy and the tortured sees the torturer as the enemy. A better way would be to trick the prisoner into believing that you are a friend of his. Mind control get it? Like the good cop/bad cop routine. Because of the bad cop the prisoner tends to consider the other cop as a friend of his thus making him more likely to talk.
 
 
Enamon
19:49 / 22.10.01
While we're on the subject:
http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-10-19/pol.asp

quote:Tortured Justice
There are ugly ways to extract information from suspects. What are the legal limits?
By Dahlia Lithwick

Friday, Oct. 19, 2001, at 1:00 p.m. PT

The best strategy in fighting terrorism, some say, is to "disrupt" the groups and cells planning future missions. One way of doing that, already practiced by the United States, is to farm out torture assignments to countries such as Egypt, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, where they have no compunctions about extracting information from sources with violence or by threatening their family members.

The fact that the United States avails itself of the fruits of foreign torture is legally and morally problematic. But the truth about torture is more troubling still. Although U.S. and international law prohibit the use of torture to obtain information, the United States has tortured suspected spies here at home and coached other nations on the best techniques for doing it too. What is the legality of the U.S. approach? Can it contract out its torturing to foreign nations? Can it torture suspects—even just a little—if they have information about imminent attacks or anthrax sources that could save thousands of American lives?

As a legal matter, the issue of "torture" is only invoked in U.S. courts after the fact, when: 1) the prosecution introduces evidence resulting from interrogations into evidence (as the now-convicted African embassy bombers did during their trial last year); or 2) the suspect sues later for civil rights violations (as Abner Louima did in 1997). Thus, the question of whether or not torture is "legal" is one issue. The answer is: It isn't. The more relevant question is whether U.S. courts would admit evidence procured via torture (it might) or prosecute an American for torture (it might).

There's no doubt that torturing terrorists and their associates for information works. In 1995, Philippine intelligence agents tortured Abdul Hakim Murad, whom they arrested after he blew up his apartment making bombs. The agents threw a chair at Murad's head, broke his ribs, forced water into his mouth, and put cigarettes out on his genitals, but Murad didn't talk until agents masquerading as the Mossad threatened to take him back to Israel for some real questioning. Murad named names. His confession included details of a plot to kill Pope John Paul II, as well as plots to crash 11 U.S. airliners into the ocean and to fly an airplane into the CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. His co-conspirator Ramzi Yousef was later convicted for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Similarly unappealing methods helped the CIA uncover the millennium bomb plot of 1999, after al-Qaida terrorists were questioned in Egypt and Jordan.

The CIA has always known that torture works. According to declassified CIA interrogation manuals, the CIA has taught others how it's done, in Nicaragua, Guatemala, and other Latin American countries. The manuals refer to using "deprivation of sensory stimuli," "threats and fear," "food and sleep deprivation," and pain to extract information. The most famous case of CIA use of domestic torture was that of Yuri Nosenko, a former KGB agent who defected to the United States in 1964. Believing he was a Soviet spy, the CIA kept Nosenko in solitary confinement for more than three years in a 10-foot-square concrete cell. He was, for long periods of time, denied food, sunlight, reading materials, and human contact. He claims to have been given LSD. When he attempted to build toys out of lint, they were confiscated. The CIA freed Nosenko in 1967, finally concluding he was a bona fide defector after all. This episode and government inquiries into similar situations prompted the dismissal of many executives of the counterintelligence department in the 1970s.

A more recent case of CIA-sanctioned torture involved Efrain Bamaca Velasquez, a Guatemalan revolutionary. His widow, Jennifer Harbury, alleges in a lawsuit that the agency financed and indirectly participated in efforts to torture information out of him, leading ultimately to his death in the early 1990s. She also alleges that the Guatemalans who tortured her husband were paid by the CIA and that two had been trained in torture and interrogation techniques at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas. Last January, in Harbury v. Deutch, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals found that the torture had not violated Bamaca's Fifth Amendment due process rights. Prior case law holds that noncitizens' rights are violated only in cases of: 1) physical presence in the United States at the time; 2) their mistreatment in a country where the United States exercises de facto political control; or 3) abuse in the course of abduction for trial in an American court. The D.C. Circuit relied heavily on a Supreme Court case, U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990), holding that evidence found during an illegal Fourth Amendment search of a nonresident alien's property in a foreign country was admissible at trial in the United States.

Given this precedent, it's difficult to imagine a Bin Laden associate who's been tortured abroad prevailing in a claim that he was tortured for information, so long as he's not a citizen. It also means we can probably use that information in a U.S. trial. The defendants in the African embassy bombing trials, heard last year in New York City, met with a similar fate. They claimed that during the investigation the FBI threatened to turn them over to the brutal Kenyan authorities if they didn't cooperate with U.S. prosecutors. Confessions were made. The court, finding no evidence that the defendants had actually been mistreated, allowed the evidence to come in.

The rights of U.S. citizens are more significant than the rights of noncitizens or nonresident aliens. The Eighth Amendment proscribes "cruel and unusual" punishment outright, and the case law (Rochin v. California) establishes that it's a Fifth Amendment violation to do anything to procure evidence that "shocks the conscience." In U.S. courts, the general rule of evidence bars confessions obtained through "oppression" (defined generally as "torture, inhuman or degrading treatment and the use of or threat of violence"). International law also forbids the use of torture, most notably in the U.N. Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

What about the possibility of sending suspects and material witnesses to other countries for interrogation? It worked to foil the millennium bombing plot. We probably can't ask the Egyptians to torture them, but we would certainly benefit from information gained if they did. The 700 detainees aren't being tortured here, but they aren't being treated very nice. They have been held over a month without charges, many in solitary confinement in 8-by-10-foot cells. Some report being deprived of toothbrushes, showers, and warm clothing. They have limited contact with attorneys and none with their families. The material witness statute allows them to be held only "a reasonable amount of time," and it's clear that many of these detentions are not reasonable. It's approaching Nosenko treatment, and in a few weeks it really will "shock the conscience." Among those 700 individuals are Zacarias Moussaoui and Nabil al-Marabh. (Moussaoui is the Moroccan who wanted to learn how to steer a jetliner but wasn't interested in takeoffs or landings. Al-Marabh allegedly had ties to at least two of the New York hijackers and was involved in transferring money for the foiled millennium plot in 1999.) And the United States has already convicted Bin Laden follower Ramzi Yousef for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Yousef has reportedly refused to speak since Sept. 11. Still, it's clear that these detainees are not being beaten, drugged, or subjected to pain per the CIA torture manuals.

According to Professor Robert Turner at the Center for National Security Law at the University of Virginia, there is no legal or moral justification for beating information out of suspects. Within the confines of the United States, torture is not a legal option, even if you knew an individual had the code to stop a nuclear bomb, although that hypothetical is a close call, according to Turner. This "ticking time bomb" exception was held illegal by the Israeli Supreme Court, who recently outlawed the use of "moderate physical force," even when suspects could offer information about imminent attacks. Whether or not it's "legal," torture still happens in Israel. And it's easy to imagine any U.S. cop turning into Dirty Harry if he knew that tens of thousands of lives were on the line. He'd be more than willing to answer for it later, while they're pinning the medal on his chest.

Some of the 700 detainees have vital information about Osama Bin Ladin and al-Qaida, and unless the president plans to suspend the right to habeas corpus, as Abraham Lincoln did, his options will become increasingly unattractive. He can release them, along with all the secrets they harbor. He can deport them or extradite them to places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, where they may well be subject to torture and abuse. Or he can stick with our current plan, which appears to be confined to the soft bigotry of indefinite confinement. That will, at some point, amount to torture in its own right. Fortunately, the Supreme Court once found that the indefinite internment of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent, on the basis of nothing but their race, was not torture; it wasn't even racial discrimination. No doubt they will accommodate the Justice Department this time around as well.
 
 
Frances Farmer
19:51 / 22.10.01
Enamon,

There's, in fact, a CIA manual discussing interrogation and manipulation techniques, and it says much of the same thing, though it's quite detailed.

See, you could always just work to invoke the Gruen Transfer...

 
 
Turk
03:47 / 23.10.01
quote:FBI agents have offered the suspects the prospect of lighter sentences, money, jobs, and a new identity and life in the United States for them and their family members, but they have not succeeded in getting information from them, according to law enforcement sources.
Yes, since you hate us so much, howabout you tell us everything you know and we'll kindly make you part of the society you so despise. Deal? No? Why not? What the hell is wrong with you?!? This is America damn it!
 
 
Ganesh
11:11 / 23.10.01
'Make friends with 'em until they beg for mercy'. Bollocks, then?
 
 
grant
12:33 / 24.10.01
Legalize prostitution.

Answers guaranteed inside of three weeks.
 
 
Ierne
19:01 / 24.10.01
On a less humorous note, breaking news on the BBC:

A Pakistani man arrested by the FBI as part of its investigation into the 11 September attacks on America dies in his jail cell in New Jersey

I'll try to find out more about exactly how he died...

MSNBC sez it's
a heart attack...

CNN sez
"Unknown Causes"...

[ 24-10-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
king_of_terror
00:53 / 25.10.01
Is the US 'utterly horrible'?

I dont think its CITIZENS are, per se, even though i believe they are some of the worlds most ignorant (and loudest) people. Generalizing, yes i know, but the truth hurts doesnt it.
I think USA govt has done a great injustice with its managing of world affairs, under the pretexts of capitalism (state funded enterprises, private company profits, built on third world sweat shops) and free-trade. The logical results of this world DOMINATION seem to be appearing.
I think USA is expert at LYING, same as Saddam and Taliban. For example, if this is a War on Terror (what ever that means), lets see the IRA, Hamas and the us funded Contra's come underfire.

I know i have trodden on toes by saying this things, in that respect i have something in common with Hunter. Obviously good Americans exist, and obviously the side effects of democracy and capitalism lead to a good quality of life for first world citizens, obviously better than countries that torture and hang citizens, BUT: others are suffering unjustly so that you can keep this luxury. If 1 person reads this, and it cracks the illusions you have then great

one final example about USA and ignorance, im watching CNN right now, and the Pentagon is calling civilian casualties 'lies' and 'ridiculous'. Despite the UN food people dying etc, other press has this info, CNN denies it. To what end? CNN is saying protests are 'smaller than expected', in PAkistan, yet the PM is saying "we are on the verge of splitting the country".
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:41 / 25.10.01
That the nation-state as such is "utterly horrible" has been relatively obvious since at least world war one. It's an arbitrary and destructive form imposed on diverse human communities, creating foreigners, outcasts, aliens, minorities and the border violence to keep them out/down.

Arguing about whether or not the US is especially bad simply assumes the naturality and normativity of the nation-state form, turning the teeming populations in and around the US into stable groups delimited and defined by geographical boundaries. The US isn't an unitary entity such that you can say it's good, bad, or indifferent. US citizens aren't a unitary group such that you can say they're good, ignorant, or indifferent. You can criticise US policy, the actions of groups or individuals within the US, etc. But anything more general just smacks, to me, of a naivety about the historical construction of the nation-state.

That said, US governments have done some monumentally fucked up things - tragedies, atrocities, pretty much without comparison in world history, since they're the biggest superpower ever. But the only thing stopping, for example, the Australian government being just as bad is its relative insignificance and lack of military strength.
 
 
Frances Farmer
02:07 / 25.10.01
quote:Originally posted by king_of_terror:
Is the US 'utterly horrible'?


Is anything "utterly horrible"?

Or, are we all part of the same mess, mixed up in beauty and sadness and pain and doubt and laughter?

quote:
I dont think its CITIZENS are, per se, even though i believe they are some of the worlds most ignorant (and loudest) people. Generalizing, yes i know, but the truth hurts doesnt it.


On what do you judge? The media? The government? Or have you met a significant portion of the U.S. citizen body?

quote:
I think USA govt has done a great injustice with its managing of world affairs, under the pretexts of capitalism (state funded enterprises, private company profits, built on third world sweat shops) and free-trade. The logical results of this world DOMINATION seem to be appearing.


But I still haven't heard what differentiates the U.S. from all the other imperialistic, colonialist bastards out there. I can give you part of the answer, though: Circumstance.

quote:
I think USA is expert at LYING, same as Saddam and Taliban. For example, if this is a War on Terror (what ever that means), lets see the IRA, Hamas and the us funded Contra's come underfire.


And same as Tony Blair and same as Vladimir Putin. You still haven't called out a differentiation. It's important, y'know.

And hey, the IRA is disarming, haven't you heard?

quote:
I know i have trodden on toes by saying this things, in that respect i have something in common with Hunter. Obviously good Americans exist, and obviously the side effects of democracy and capitalism lead to a good quality of life for first world citizens, obviously better than countries that torture and hang citizens, BUT: others are suffering unjustly so that you can keep this luxury.


You're on the internet, aren't you? Be careful where you draw the line between "you" and "I". It might not be there to begin with.

Democracy, while quickly becoming outmoded, I think, has served a purpose in the evolution of government. As a matter of fact, democratic government -- ironically, the U.S.' in particular, has made brilliant strides towards the thinning of government control and therefore government's ability to abuse. That's not to say that things aren't atrocious in so many ways right now -- obviously, they are. That is to say, however, that your particular perspective on the topic strikes me as shortsided.

quote:
If 1 person reads this, and it cracks the illusions you have then great


And that's a truly beautiful sentiment. We ought to all strive for the abandonment of illusion. However, we must not forget our own in the process.

quote:
one final example about USA and ignorance, im watching CNN right now, and the Pentagon is calling civilian casualties 'lies' and 'ridiculous'. Despite the UN food people dying etc, other press has this info, CNN denies it. To what end? CNN is saying protests are 'smaller than expected', in PAkistan, yet the PM is saying "we are on the verge of splitting the country".[/QB]


But this is the A/B fallacy!

If B follows A, A must cause B?

If CNN is clearly lobsided in it's propaganda and rhetoric, this must clearly be due to the prevalent ignorance of the U.S. citizenry?

Are you so sure?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:12 / 25.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Crunchy Mr Bananapants:
That the nation-state as such is "utterly horrible" has been relatively obvious since at least world war one. It's an arbitrary and destructive form imposed on diverse human communities, creating foreigners, outcasts, aliens, minorities and the border violence to keep them out/down.


What type of community <I>isn't</I> constructed around an outside-inside binary opposition? Why is a nation state any more arbitrary than a grouping of people in any other sort of geographical location? Isn't it just a question of scale?

Does it make sense to talk about a "nation" without borders, (borders in the geographic, legal, and mental sense)?

In a way, events like September 11th (or for that matter, natural disasters of massive scale) justify the existence of the state. Any individual humans or an organization with less "holarchy" would be ill equipped to deal with the fall-out from this catastrophe. If their wasn't a centralized authority in NYC on September 11th, I think the casualties would have been much more severe and the recovery effort impeded by the wait for the citizenry to spontaneously organize.

The nation state also is a vehicle for liberation for some oppressed people. The idea of a sovereign state has great revolutionary potential.
 
 
Jackie Susann
11:35 / 25.10.01
arrrr! nations existed long before nation-states, matey; like i almost said, it was post-wwi peace treaties which imposed the model of the nation-state on extremely diverse communities throughout europe. before that many nations didn't have borders; they were dispersed across state boundaries. once the nation-state become the rule, these dispersed nations tended to become minorities or foreigners in the new states. shiver me timbers, germans, jews, armenians, etc. all suffered from this minority status.

i'm not complaining about the arbitrariness of the nation-state; my objection to it is historical, i.e., that it's resulted in massive destruction and tragedy.

i am inclined to disagree about 9/11; it seems to me that much of the relief work was done non-heirarchically, with people offering their skills in decentralised meshworks to help out. i know i read an essay by an anarchist medic who normally works at protests, about driving to new york to volunteer along with hundreds of other paramedics. meanwhile, the centralised authority of the us state was hiding in a bunker somewhere. obviously, there's no objective test of whether or not state/centralised or decentralised organising would have resulted in fewer causalties, my point is only that your argument is certainly not proven.

The nation-state is a vehicle for some oppressed peoples, sure; whether it's ever a vehicle of liberation, I'm not convinced, yo ho ho.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:19 / 25.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Crunchy Anne Bonney:
arrrr! nations existed long before nation-states, matey; like i almost said, it was post-wwi peace treaties which imposed the model of the nation-state on extremely diverse communities throughout europe. before that many nations didn't have borders; they were dispersed across state boundaries. once the nation-state become the rule, these dispersed nations tended to become minorities or foreigners in the new states. shiver me timbers, germans, jews, armenians, etc. all suffered from this minority status.


Hmmmm....this reminds me of an article I read on the possibility of "Pashtunistan", in Slate magazine (which is all screwed up right now, so I can't provide a link or even quote what I thought was interesting. Arr!) I want to talk about "Yugoslavia", "Pakistan" and various sub-saharan african nations that were created in the manner you describe above, and how that creation determines their internal political course. But my head is too fogged up this morning.

Aren't nation-states based on ethnic identity even more oppressive than nations made up of diverse populations?

Shiver me timbers! Since there are Jewish, african, arab, indian, et al diasporas, how much does the "nation" part of nation-state matter anymore? Isn't everyone in the US, for example, part of some diaspora?
 
 
Devin 1984
14:47 / 25.10.01
I think no matter what good we have done for other nations, we must always be critical of the United States. The criticism is for the most part constructive. And, just because we've done good in the past, doesn't give us a coupon to kill innocents.

devin


www.harplander.com
 
 
Ierne
16:42 / 25.10.01
I dont think its CITIZENS are, per se, even though i believe they are some of the worlds most ignorant (and loudest) people. Generalizing, yes i know, but the truth hurts doesnt it. – pipsqueak of terror

Does your opinion equal "truth"? Is that how it works in whatever country you come from? Have you ever met an American in your life?

Do you realize that you come across just as bigoted, ignorant and small-minded as this fantasy concept of "America" you rail against?

Think before you post, kid.
 
 
king_of_terror
18:25 / 25.10.01
reply to frances

quote:
Originally posted by king_of_terror:
Is the US 'utterly horrible'?
Is anything "utterly horrible"?

i believe this topic is for those who think the US is utterly horrible.

quote:
I dont think its CITIZENS are, per se, even though i believe they are some of the worlds most ignorant (and loudest) people. Generalizing, yes i know, but the truth hurts doesnt it.
On what do you judge? The media? The government? Or have you met a significant portion of the U.S. citizen body?

No I have not met a significant portion of the US. I have meet around 20 good friends, and had to deal with hundreds of americans. The loud bit was a joke, tho you have to admit its got truth in it. You will not realise that of course, if you have never left the country, as you have nothing to compare against. As for ignorant, I stand by that claim. I can link urls later (i think i will be challenged again) if necessary. I mean ignorant of world affairs (due to media conditioning-more later), ignorant of USA foreign policies, due to politician doublespeak. Isnt your new Homeland Defence guy an expert terrorist orginazier?

But I still haven't heard what differentiates the U.S. from all the other imperialistic, colonialist bastards out there. I can give you part of the answer, though: Circumstance.

Yes I agree, the tallest is always a target of sorts. However the difference is the murderous regime of terror in the third world. Okay, others have done similar in the past, but in the last fifty years the States has achieved new levels of violence. What differentiates is the determined approach to this violence, to maintain 'world order'. America had something like half the worlds wealth with 6% of its population after WW11, and has followed a plan to keep it that way. If some other country (France?) was in the same position, i am sure it would be them i would be talking about, but its not, its the US. sorry, circumstance makes it sound like the US just fell into all these wars. i dont but that.

quote:
one final example about USA and ignorance, im watching CNN right now, and the Pentagon is calling civilian casualties 'lies' and 'ridiculous'. Despite the UN food people dying etc, other press has this info, CNN denies it. To what end? CNN is saying protests are 'smaller than expected', in PAkistan, yet the PM is saying "we are on the verge of splitting the country".[/QB]
But this is the A/B fallacy!
If B follows A, A must cause B?

I was trying to point out WHY Americans might be so ignorant. Thanks for at least admitting CNN can be biased.

to the other person who got mad, and said i was the ignorant one etc, you are just buying into that Bush bullshit: If you are not with us, you are against us. Sorry, im with the UN, and the world court. America isnt. What country veto's every peace effort in the UN? only two, Israel, and bigbrother America. If you think im anti-american, why am i even bothering writing here? Has that thought occured to you? I know you all care, I am trying to guide some decisions on your part with information. I care too. So dont get mad at me, for pointing out the truth. And who's to say that I have it right? Well duh, thats why god gave you a brain, YOU decide for yourself. And i liked the patronizing 'kid' bit.
 
 
pacha perplexa
18:52 / 25.10.01
<rant>

Ierne: as Frances sez, we're all part of the same mess.

Can I give you my impression as "inhabitant of peripheral coutry"?

In most underdeveloped countries like mine, a "villain" is always elected to explain the shit, preferably an outsider villain (it's always been like that, hasn't it?). The portuguese and the americans (even argentins!) are considered villains. This, as you might know, makes us turn away from our own incapacities - which are many, much more than we like to admit.

This is one side.

The other side is that we have a press (mass media), and a government, that simply love everything US's government does, and supports it - we used to call them "neoliberalistas".

But US's government has been a devil when it comes to IMF and free-trade ("you can import from us, open you markets for us to come in and SELL, but we won't let your products enter HERE because they haven't been approved by sanitary inspection" - which we know is a lie because we export the same products to Europe). And there's IMF: "'Kay, we borrow you money, but you have to cut costs" - which, in other words, is asking to cause unemployment, privatize and so on. Press and government PRAISE this. Which is terrible.

Point being: I see two extremes. Either you love americans, or you hate them, that's how we've been taught to think. There's no "what if" in this. I'm NOT saying it should be like that, I'm saying that there's much resentment from those who hate, and much stupidity from those who love.

It's like that, and it's depressing. Because, as I said, people here turn away from our responsibilities while, at the same time, some love US because of touristic attractions like Disney, or because going there is a synonim of status! Not because of it's people, of it's diversity, and things like that.

Those who love US ("wanna go to Hollywood, wanna go to Disney!!") are, usually, unable to criticize the everyday media trash trown into they brains. That's a fact, you can interview people on the streets and you see how empty they are.

Those who hate US's just hate it, no matter the people who live there. And hating US is a synonim of "being politicized". I know!! It's pathetic.

And this, coming from a country (Brazil) that has all kinds of descendants from more than 20 countries, kinda like US itself.

Just thought I could present a look inside foreigner minds, so you can see that, like most american citizens, we too see things in "extremes". Most can't sepparate Government from People.

I criticize US, but not it's people (which has the same kind of diversity as here). And whenever someone blames you guys, your government and you lifestile for our misery, I try to think that Brasil's government'd do the same if we were the most powerful country in the world, just to keep the power.

All in all, WE are NOT OUR governments. We are people (duh), and we are very much the same, in essence, everywhere.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
19:02 / 25.10.01
It seems rather impossible to me to judge a group made up of several hundred billion people based on the 20 you know personally, and the hundreds that you've "had to deal with." (What does that mean? They cut in front of you on the subway? You heard them talking loudly at the local diner?)

"Joe's an American, but he's OK" is strikingly similar to, "He's not a nigger, he's Joe." Just pointing that out.

Look, I agree with you that the U.S. has done a myriad of shitty, imperialist, cruel things, and I also agree with you that we've undoubtedly achieved new levels of violence and destruction. One question, though: do you believe that is because the U.S. is so much more inherently "evil" than any other dominant country that has come before it? Or rather that technology, etc. has improved within the past 50 years? And how could you possibly say you "know?"

Blame the U.S. - and look, I am definitely not blind to the faults of my country - but I don't know how you can't see that the U.S. is simply following in the footsteps of the imperialist ruling countries that came before it. How different, in terms of "utter horribleness" is the U.S. today than Britain was at the height of its imperialist empire?

And believe me, I don't want to come across as, "Well, well, you suck, too!" I don't mean it that way. But let's look at the big picture here. Your narrow focus ("U.S. = ignorant fuckers" )precludes that.

Don't blame - explain.

I think most people on this list at least would not just admit but "agree" that MOST news sources are biased. I don't know where you live, and I don't know where you get your news, but if you honestly think that your local paper is a completely unbiased source of information, well then you're the one who's been "conditioned by the media" (maaaa-aan..).

Are people conditioned by the media? Hell yes they are - and you know what? You are, too. But you keep using that as some sort of one-size-fits all for your arguments. And it doesn't work. Yes, we're conditioned by the media, but many many people can question what they see, think, feel, in spite of what Ted Turner & co. tell us to believe.

I don't think you're anti-american, and I think you're welcome to your opinion and I am very open to what you have to say. But this blanket job you're doing is just annoying.

Give me something concrete - then I might be convinced.

I will give you this - it has been my experience that yes, Americans do come off louder than our international sistren. I know this because I have a pretty loud voice for an American and I always have to make a conscious effort to tone it down a bit abroad (generally failing every time, but whatever). Luckily my sparkling personality and charm make up for it!
 
 
king_of_terror
20:52 / 25.10.01
*sigh*

i really dont know what else to say, my news sources are:
zmag-good info from good sources
indymedia-a bit more down to earth
truedove-i think someone from here started it
new scientist-good article on anthrax
---anthrax strains in mail are from Mea strain, dev by USA (surprise surprise), and could be a local terror group ~ this is in contrast to CNN, who on their anthrax page insist its only USA, russia and Iraq that could possibly ever have done it.

if i am rattling off the same old mantra, sorry, but i believe it. I am not the worlds most articulate person, and I find it hard to explain myself, i am not "anti-american", i just think you have to take more responsibilty for what your country does, if you dont like paying the price for its actions. Its not a hard concept to understand
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:28 / 26.10.01
quote:
zmag-good info from good sources
indymedia-a bit more down to earth
truedove-i think someone from here started it
new scientist-good article on anthrax
---anthrax strains in mail are from Mea strain, dev by USA (surprise surprise), and could be a local terror group ~ this is in contrast to CNN, who on their anthrax page insist its only USA, russia and Iraq that could possibly ever have done it.


*Sigh*

Ok.

I agree that CNN is highly questionable. See my thread "The Media Mall".

But I have to ask the question: If CNN says that the U.S., Iraq, and Russia are the only countries known to have the ability to weaponize Anthrax effectively, and then New Scientist points out that the strain was developed within the U.S...

...Where precisely is the contradiction?

Now, if you wanted to take issue with the fact that CNN is subtely pushing towards this "Iraq must be behind all this madness.." stance, while simultaneously, facts seem to show otherwise, this I could understand. But you didn't.

quote:
if i am rattling off the same old mantra, sorry, but i believe it. I am not the worlds most articulate person, and I find it hard to explain myself, i am not "anti-american", i just think you have to take more responsibilty for what your country does, if you dont like paying the price for its actions. Its not a hard concept to understand


Who has to take more responsibility? What responsibility are you taking?

And for that matter, why don't the citizens of Afghanistan just take more responsibility for the state of their regime? Eh?

Maybe because it's not quite that simple?
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:33 / 26.10.01
Oh, and KoT -- while I'm willing to engage your cordially, I'll not to do without saying:

Your attitude is utter shite.

You continually take shots at anyone who tries to stradle the line between blind patriotism and blind hatred. The truth that hurts is the one that isn't so simple as your beautifully crafted diachotomies of good and evil. The truth that hurts is the light that comes in when you open your eyes.

Your comment about my willigness to question CNN was more ironic than you know.

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:33 / 26.10.01
Arrr! I'm not sure what about KoT's attitude you think is "utter shite". Really, I'm not sure why people have so tarded out over fairly banal comments. OH MY GOD, somebody suggested many US citizens are ignorant. Hold the fucking front page.

Frances, you seem to be objecting to the claim that people should take some responsibility for what their government does. And your objection is, basically, well what are you doing if you're so good? I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?

What is your argument, exactly? Do you think there isn't a lot of ignorance in the US about US foreign policy? I really don't understand what you're arguing and I'm trying to get it clear.

And on another tangent, Todd, i basically agree with your last post so i think the problem is that we understand 'nation-state' differently. To me, it indicates a historically specific social form based on the principle that states (i.e., governments) should correspond to nations (i.e., culturally/racially homogeneous groups). The corollary of this has always been the existence within the nation-state of minority groups, generally subject to fairly vicious persecution. And as you say, the nation-state is waning.
 
 
MJ-12
09:33 / 26.10.01
quote:Originally posted by king_of_terror:

---anthrax strains in mail are from Mea strain, dev by USA (surprise surprise),


I'm reading

quote:But it closely resembles the "Ames" strain of laboratory cultures, which was originally isolated from a cow in Iowa in 1932. It is also close to an Ames strain found circulating in the wild, which killed a goat in Texas in 1997.

which indicates that it was discovered, rather that developed in the US. Do you have anything else to go on?

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: MJ-12 ]
 
 
The Damned Yankee
09:33 / 26.10.01
Yes, please don't judge us Americans by the ones that show up at the Olympics.

But ANYway, there be much truth to what my Crunchy cousin says, and even KoT, though I'd have been a little less sweeping in my generalizations (I henceforth promise to make only specific generalizations). The American public knows only what the media feeds it, and the media is firmly cheering on the war machine. The prevalent mood seems to be that if they overly antagonize the government, they are fearful that contacts will dry up, and the offending outlet will find itself "scooped" by another outlet more willing to play ball.

Add to that the fact that the major news networks have closed most of their foreign correspondence branches, and it's really no wonder that Americans aren't up on what's going on with the world.

A few weeks before 9/11, I tuned in to BBC America and watched the news in something akin to shock. They were everywhere! Why can't CBS or NBC get this kind of coverage?

Add to this the media's compliance with the government's veil of secrecy, thanks to which we can't watch our heroic troops in action as we did when they were in Viet Nam, setting fire to thatched huts with their Zippos. Now we're lucky to get smoke over the horizon, and the images of the rubble that come through from Arab stations never show any of the "collateral damage". Wouldn't do to damage the public's complacency - er, I mean morale.
 
 
king_of_terror
09:33 / 26.10.01
frances, you say my attitude is shite...I shouldnt even diginfy that with a reply, except:
i think bombing a COUNTRY cause some baddies are hiding in it somewhere is shite.
I think creating an environment where millions potentially starve to death is shite.
But then, you have no idea do you?

whoever asked about anthrax source...: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991473


The bacteria used for the anthrax attacks in the US is either the strain the US itself used to make anthrax weapons in the 1960's, or close to it. It is not a strain that Iraq, or the former Soviet Union, mass-produced for weapons.
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:33 / 26.10.01
quote:
Arrr! I'm not sure what about KoT's attitude you think is "utter shite". Really, I'm not sure why people have so tarded out over fairly banal comments. OH MY GOD, somebody suggested many US citizens are ignorant. Hold the fucking front page.


My problem is that he says it in the spirit of exception -- as if the U.S. is the sole producer of Stupid People(tm) in the world today. He says it with vitriol, not balance. Hatred, not acknowledgement.

quote:
Frances, you seem to be objecting to the claim that people should take some responsibility for what their government does. And your objection is, basically, well what are you doing if you're so good? I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?


Is that really what I seem to be objecting to? Because that's not a problem for me.

My problem is this:

KoT's points are based on sweeping, entirely unhelpful generalizations. He repeatedly tells folks things they already know as if they're the greatest thing since sliced bread: "Wake up! There's something wrong with the U.S.! Can't you see?!" Well, I'll be fucking damned if that isn't just so true -- but where does it leave us? "Open your eyes, for Christ's sake!" -- it's the same type of argument Laila would put forward, only the topic and thrust are a bit more 'fash'. But I'll continually say: It does no good to decry the U.S. based on generalizations, assumptions, and ill-informed concepts of it's civilian constituency. That's not say there aren't well-informed concepts and reasonable assumptions -- but KoT's thoughts don't qualify for these catagories in my opinion. Furthermore, KoT's approach certainly does not shake the Ignorant Masses(tm) out of their cubbyholes. It doesn't do a lick of good. It's just insulting to the people who are trying to make a difference. Simply put, I've seen you put down the U.S. before, and I had no problem with it. You had a succinct point. You had a suggestion for change. And you didn't base your argument off of the wait of insulting rhetoric directed towards the Ignorant Masses(tm). I know that KoT agrees with you -- but believe me, it's not based on the same kind of reasoning. There's an important difference, I think, between your passion on the topic and his blind vitriol.

I completely agree that folks ought to take responsibility. I take responsibility. The people I associate with take responsibility. The ones who don't (take responsibility) receive quite bit of pressure and encouragement (in turns) to push them towards taking some responsibility. Many of us participate in the democratic process. But, the fact is, a filthy-rich political lobby funded by corporations whose bankrolls reach into the trillions will outpower the weight of protest and a wise vote any day of the week -- And this isn't only true in the U.S.

I wouldn't have had to type all that if it weren't for a smooth rhetorical trick on your part, by the way. Very, very smooth.



So, I'm all for thought-out, informed criticism -- but I just don't take it well one somebody says: "Wake the hell up, you blind fool!". It's degrading. And sure, calling his posturing utter shite is degrading, too. I was pissed.

quote:
What is your argument, exactly? Do you think there isn't a lot of ignorance in the US about US foreign policy? I really don't understand what you're arguing and I'm trying to get it clear.


I thought it was pretty clear. I don't appreciate repeatedly being told I'm an ignorant shit simply because I don't agree when I'm told I'm surrounded by ignorant shits. I would know. He would not. Fact.

Look -- I believe in responsibility. I believe in dispelling illusions. I believe in all these things -- but I don't believe in the way in which KoT advances his point, nor the way in which he attempts to acheive these ends. I don't feel it's helpful, I don't feel it's accurate, and I feel it serves to belittle the valid criticism that exists towards U.S. policy, rather than encourage more valid criticism to support the existing base.

I'm surprised you took issue with my stance towards KoT -- with the exception of the "utter shite" comment, which is admittedly juvenile.

The deal is this: It ought to be clear from my posts, past and present, that I have some serious issues with U.S. media congelomerates, U.S. foreign policy, and U.S. domestic policy, and I see all of these issues as fundementally interrelated.

Many members of Barbelith are U.S. residents. I find it surprising that one would need to resort to presuming the ignorance of individuals on Barbelith simply based on the country in which they're born. No, that's not quite right -- I don't just find it surprising. I feel it's wholly unnecessary, and pretty much anathema to the ostensive political and social goals many of us share.

The entire point of my first few posts was to encourage him to delve into the facts, and move away from the broad generalizations and insulting overtones. I was pointing out that it's not helpful to repeatedly wave the "Bad U.S." flag without explaining why -- and I did so by pointing out that if one wished to, one could make the same blank statements about any mid-to-large sized nation-state.

There's nothing wrong with his opinions -- and I wouldn't wish to stifle his debate, his standpoint. But I don't think it's appropriate to insult millions of people in one broad sweep and act as if you're speaking the gospel.

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:33 / 26.10.01
quote:
frances, you say my attitude is shite...I shouldnt even diginfy that with a reply, except:
i think bombing a COUNTRY cause some baddies are hiding in it somewhere is shite.
I think creating an environment where millions potentially starve to death is shite.


I guess now you know how it feels, eh?

You essentially told me I was utter shite on the basis of the country I live in. I told you your attitude was shite for saying such a thing.

Ironically, while my statement was juvenile and inappropriate, it was marginally more accurate than yours. Go figure.

quote:
But then, you have no idea do you?


Well, see, this is what I'm talking about. Yes, I do have an idea. I have a pretty fucking good one. Probably equal to or better than yours. And what can I do about it? Not a fucking thing. Not a thing other than what I do now -- inform myself, argue passionately, try to keep the balance, and look for ways to be heard.

But you wouldn't know whether or not that's the case, would you? You came in here and told me I was ignorant without bothering to engage me in a discussion on the issues at hand. Not just me -- You told me my friends and family were ignorant.

And what the fuck is that -- the presumption of ignorance -- if not ignorance exemplified?

quote:
The bacteria used for the anthrax attacks in the US is either the strain the US itself used to make anthrax weapons in the 1960's, or close to it. It is not a strain that Iraq, or the former Soviet Union, mass-produced for weapons.[/QB]


Right.

But you've failed to answer my questions. Let me review them:

You point out that CNN reports the Anthrax must've been weaponized by one of three countries: The U.S., Russia, or Iraq.

You go on to point out that evidence seems to show it is likely the strain was weaponized by the U.S.

And your conclusion is that CNN has deceived the Ignorant Masses(tm).

Do you see a fallacy here?

You'll find few people more critical of mass-media in general, U.S. mass-media in specific, than myself. This might sound detached, but a couple of days after the attacks, while some were staring in horror at looped footage of the collapsing WTC towers, I stared in horror at the irresponsibility of CNN for juxtapositioning those emotionally devastating images with manipulative pundits pushing political agendas and Palestinian children dancing in the streets. It's nearly impossible to form cohesive thought in those conditions -- unless you're hardened to it. And nobody is hardened to it. Fuck, y'know -- I didn't know what to think. But I thought and thought until I felt I was getting an idea -- a grasp -- of what the hell was going on. Eventually, I developed a shell to deal with the crying, screaming innocents jumping off of the 107th floor, preferring death by sudden impact to death by searing heat.

My point is, I don't like CNN.

I watch U.S. mass-media with a sense of detached cynicism. I become a seive. But I can tell you with the same detached cynicism that what you've just said about Anthrax and CNN makes absolutely no sense.

All I'm doing is challenging you to justify your claims.

And again, I'll repeat:

If your claim had to do with a discrepancy between CNN's unconvincing rhetoric about Iraq's possible involvement and the results of conclusive tests, that would be one thing.

But, what you've said is quite another thing entirely.

This is primarily a pointless argument, but it does serve a communicable purpose: Your attitude of saying anything you can get your hands on prior to examining it just to attempt to discredit the U.S. and wake up the "sleeping giant" is irresponsible. It takes from your agenda. It discredits your standpoint. I'm sympathetic to your criticism of the U.S. -- but I find it ironic you're the one accusing me of having closed eyes and a closed mind. That's the point of my argument -- as unrelated as it may seem.

So, y'know, how about we make peace? I just ask you -- can you see where I'm coming from?

I'm ignorant, yes -- but not in exception. I'm ignorant just like everybody else -- and yes, that includes you. You don't need to parade your high horse over me in order to receive sympathy for your standpoint. In fact, it makes it difficult for me to feel sympathy for your point -- because you're insulting me, and my family, and my friends -- and doing it without any convincing argument. I'm willing to listen to you, but first you need to treat me like a human being -- and not a "Hated American".

Can we do this?

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:33 / 26.10.01
Hmmm... arrrr... I'm sorry if I was harsh in my last post. Things just connected up with things I've been thinking a lot (too much) about, like how much responsibility we bear here in Australia for refugee policy that's basically murderous - and the press insisting everyone supports it - it just seems impossible to accept that there isn't something we could have done by now. But I guess there's not, because we haven't, but why not? And I do want to say that in some sense, people have an obligation to stop the fucked up things their governments do. And yes, of course that is to simple but - don't we? And not just 'we' fluffy progressive rad blah blah, 'we' being people, communities, whoever we are, everyday 'we'. And therefore, that it's fucking dead-on to say people are ignorant - and maybe I missed it but I don't think KoT has said the US was in a class of its own there. Ignorant northerners everywhere, including me, and part of me wants to say this ignorance is a moral failing, and I don't believe in morals much less failing them, but-- I know I'm rambling.

It just seems like sometimes there's NOTHING ELSE TO DO except scream at people that they're fucking ignorant, they'd better fucking do something or, or what? Or nothing, they'll look bad if they don't write the history books themselves.

Ramble ends.
 
 
king_of_terror
09:33 / 26.10.01
frances, you are throwing hammers at rain clouds, its pointless being mad at me. so you are smarter and more in tune with everything than me, great. your profanity shows weakness friend, try and keep it together. its just constructive criticism.
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:33 / 26.10.01
quote:Originally posted by king_of_terror:
frances, you are throwing hammers at rain clouds, its pointless being mad at me. so you are smarter and more in tune with everything than me, great. your profanity shows weakness friend, try and keep it together. its just constructive criticism.


KoT -- brilliant rhetorical maneuver. Empty, but brilliant.

Look -- my profanity shows passion, and if you can't cope with it, you ought to consider downloading "NetNanny".

That being said, all of your clever rhetorical replies have failed to address, in any way, my points. Your criticism is the antithesis of your claim -- it is, in fact, destructive, which is why I object to it.

If you're interested in making things better, why won't you engage me in return? I've offered to come halfway with you. I've asked if we can cooperate and communicate in a cordial manner -- and you respond with a mocking rhetorical reply?

Who'se throwing what at whom, my friend?

Are you interested in discussing your particular opinions on U.S. foreign policy, or is your sole concern the pseudo-intellectual equivelent of name-calling?

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
king_of_terror
09:33 / 26.10.01
frances, you are throwing hammers at rain clouds, its pointless being mad at me. so you are smarter and more in tune with everything than me, great. your profanity shows weakness friend, try and keep it together. its just constructive criticism.
 
  

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