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Cherie Blair in human decency, sorry, anti-semitism shock

 
  

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_pin
09:34 / 25.06.02
First of all: Just about all army recruitment posters and so forth that I've seen recently (they're all over my school, lumped in with all the other "traing oppotunities" ones) seem to be implying that you just join the army for a few years, learn new skills, see sights, get fit, earn money and leave. Completly missing out the "kill innocents", "get shot", "create a highly profitable network of brothels wherever yr peacekeeping force goes" and "die" parts of the job. Even the term "peace keepers" is disgracefully euphemistic. I don't really know how aware of getting killed these people are- certainly all the people I know how've joined don't get it.

Secondly: How is Dresden any thing but an attack on a non-combatants. And if the people in Dresden can be view as Nazi's somply because they're German and the German's voted for the Nazi's then why can't the Isralei's all be seen as genociding fuckers becuase they voted for Sharron? And also: how are sanctions against Iraq anything but attacks on non-combatants that clearly aren't working anyway?

And surely the fact that she had just sat and agreed with everything the queen of Jordan had said about both sides in what I've been led to belive was a remarkably moderate speech (ie a lot mroe oderate then the crap Bush was spouting last nite- when you consider that her county is full of Palestinians and they're supports, and Bush's only has a bunch of wealthy Zionist lobbiests, you habe to sit and wonder), then surely she shouldn't have to sit and repeat all of it. It was taken as implied by her being there that she agreed.
 
 
Puzimandias
22:25 / 25.06.02
From what I recall from the media rant at the time, one of their main lines is that she didn't just come out with the standard 'Of course I totally condemn these atrocities' line which other politicians seem to have memorised. But the first thing she did say after they passed the mike to her was 'I totally agree'. When I say something like this it normally means something like 'that was a well meant/thought out speech/announcement/whatever - so good infact that I have nothing much to add and don't see any point repeating it'
Heaven forbid she should then say something which hadn't been conjured up by some scriptwriter/spin doctor (read: Liar) which also happened to be a lot closer to the truth than anything I've heard Bush or Blair say on the subject!
 
 
Lilith Myth
15:52 / 26.06.02
I’m feeling very tentative about this post. But I have thought about for a few days, and it’s a considered rather than a dashed-off-angry response.

I’m also very conscious that the “givens” on Barbelith seem clear and almost universally agreed upon, despite the supposed smash-the-system sub-cultural starting point. So for example, whilst there are only two news links in this thread (BBC and the Guardian) both are organisations that have a stated policy to not use the word “terrorist” in association with Palestinians.

I’ll lay my cards on the table. My great-grandfather went to live in Israel in 1929. The land he legitimately bought – near Jaffa – from the local Arabs was “taken back” in the War of Independence. My family have done nothing to have it returned. My cousin was killed by a sniper, walking down the street in Jerusalem. Some of my friends in Israel have died during this and the previous Intifada. Unfortunately, a lot of people I don’t know, on both “sides” have died in the last two years.

So it’s personal to me. I’ve had coffee in the Moment Café, which was bombed in March, probably a hundred times. I’ve walked down the streets I see covered in blood on TV. I cry every time I hear of more deaths; it’s as hurtful for the prospect of peace whoever dies.

My friends who live in Israel live under constant stress. Everyone is affected. They don’t go out, at all. They don’t ride buses. They assess what they think of the security guard’s judgement outside the shopping mall before they go in. It’s commonplace to call people after a bomb and say “still alive?”, hear their response and hang-up.

As far as this thread goes, I’m not even going to attempt to answer every issue raised (should Cherie be making political statements? Was the timing good or bad? Feminist concerns in relation to Cherie’s ability to stand up and be counted), but I will say this:

The seeming starting point of this debate is a “demonization” of Israel and Zionism (rather, than as Flyboy suggests, a demonization of Palestinians). Here are some facts that are rarely covered in the Western media:

ONE: The Arabs' 1947 rejection of UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - which would have partitioned the British Mandate area into an Arab state and a Jewish state – resulted in a war started by the Arabs in the hope of destroying Israel. Many Palestinian Arabs abandoned their homes, often at the request of Arab leaders. A refugee problem would not have been created had this war not been forced upon Israel by the Arab countries and the local Arab leadership.

TWO: The surrounding Arab nations are committed to using the Palestinians as a pawn in their war against Israel. In May of 1967, Gamel Abdul Nasser, President of the U.A.R. said, "Our basic aim is the destruction of Israel."

Discussing the partition plan, Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947 told Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban :
The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions."

So, as Barry Auckland said, compromise is not necessarily in the Palestinian lexicon.

THREE: Arafat turned down the Barak peace plan at Camp David in 2000, offering 97% concessions.

FOUR: The current intifada began through a strategic Palestinian policy, not the visit of then Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to Jerusalem's Temple Mount in late September 2000. It was merely a pretext to launch a premeditated campaign against Israel - the Intifada.

The Palestinian leadership made a strategic decision to pursue violence rather than negotiation months before the Temple Mount visit. Palestinian officials themselves divulged this fact in statements they made in Arabic-language media resources. On December 6, 2000, the semi-official Palestinian daily Al-Ayyam reported as follows:

"Speaking at a symposium in Gaza, Palestinian Minister of Communications, Imad Al-Falouji, confirmed that the Palestinian Authority had begun preparations for the outbreak of the current Intifada from the moment the Camp David talks concluded, this in accordance with instructions given by Chairman Arafat himself. Mr. Falouji went on to state that Arafat launched this Intifada as a culminating stage to the immutable Palestinian stance in the negotiations, and was not meant merely as a protest of Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount."

FIVE: Since 1994, Israel has made substantial efforts after the signing of the Oslo accords to facilitate Palestinian-Israeli economic cooperation in the context of the peace process. As a result, there had been a marked expansion of Palestinian trade and employment in Israel, as well as other forms of economic cooperation from 1994 until the outbreak of the present violence.

Don’t get me wrong. If I were an Israeli, I wouldn’t have voted for Sharon. Israel, like most countries, is imperfect, I admit that. But there’s no other country in the world, that I’m aware of, that has to constantly justify its very existence.

It seems to me that the current demonization of Israel in the western/intellectual circles is a twenty-first century equivalent of the medieval conception of the Jew as the “devil incarnal” [see The Devil and the Jews, Joshua Trachtenberg, Yale University Press 1943].

This is a Reuters picture from July 22 2001, of young Palestinians assembling automatic assault rifles while blindfolded during a Palestinian Fatah military-style summer camp graduation in Nablus.

Or consider this; an article in the Palestinian Authority daily Al-Ayyam by columnist Ashraf Al-'Ajrami addressing the phenomenon of Palestinian children carrying out suicide attacks and the roots of this trend. Al-'Ajrami demanded that the PA take measures to stop this type of attack.

Or check this, from the Islamic Society of Gaza in Palestine (I don’t speak Arabic, but on their project page they state: “You are a great helper for our great Intefada thank you for your providing in many fields , so we’ll go a head to gather and still struggle until putting Islamic flag upon the holy land which was spoild by Israel . Asking Allah to bless you” [translation unchanged]).

This appears to be kindergarten aged children dressed as soldiers, from the same site.

So, to answer the question. Are the Palestinians desperate? Perhaps. But it may be because, sadly, Palestinian cultural identity is increasingly being based around the destruction of Israel. Are Palestinians effectively being trained, from a young age, to revere martyrs and martydom? It would appear so. Whilst a significant majority of Israelis have come a long way in the last few years (I read a statistic that 75% are committed to a two state solution, but can’t find the reference) Palestinians seem to be moving the other way.

What hope is there for any kind of peace if one party is so firmly committed to non-negotiation?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
16:05 / 26.06.02
lilith myth - after the bombing of a london gay pub a couple of years ago, we were making and receiving calls all night to make sure everyone was okay and not in the pub when the bomb went off. it was horrendous. that was one incident, so i cannot imagine how much worse your situation is. i have no choice but to look at this from the outside; i'm british, so my knowledge is way below what it could be. but i would say israel does seem to have to continually justify its existence. both sides have suffered terribly. i don't think anyone here thinks it's okay that people are dying, but perhaps there is a tendancy to see the palestinians as the more oppressed. i wish i knew more about this, and will check the links.

do you think that there will be progress if arafat is replaced? can there be progress if he isn't?
 
 
_pin
07:43 / 27.06.02
Lilith- please don't go "aah... you're anti-Semitic!". It's a blatent lie and the fact that people are banding it around just goers to show that you appear to have lost all other points thru Isreal's disgraceful handeling of the situation, the continuous occupations and the fact that they have power and the Palestians don't (mostly their own fault, as they were backed by the Soviets whiule Israel had America during the erarly stages) and still they are incapable of acting responsably.

I am not doubing the rights of the Jews to have their own country, but I ma doubnting the integrity of the people who call for it (no, not all of them). The people who call for it because of The Holocaust- these are the same people who appear on the news calling for the destruction of the Palestinians (or are these interviews faked as part of a media conspiracy against the Jews?). Yes, there should be an Israel, but the Zionists have gone about it totally the wrong way. It was created thru terrorist actions of it's future prime minister (Way to go! Vote in the terrorist and get away with it! That's not gonna set a fucking example... ). It follows the highly suspect policies of America. The original blueprint of the country appears to be advocating the entire destruction of the middle east (and you wonder why they want it out of the way?!).

Basically- I hate the country the way I hate America. That is, I hate it's administration, think it has it's priorities all fucked, and is abusing it's powers. It shouldn't have to jusitfy it's existence, but it should justify it's actions.

And saying that the reson for it's existence is due to wealthy Jewish lobbyists who vote for the Pressident isn't anti-Semitic either. It's just a fact. Accept it.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:59 / 27.06.02
Um, Pin, Lilith didn't say that anyone here was anti-semitic. Her post was measured and well-considered, unlike yours. I suggest you rethink.
 
 
_pin
08:08 / 27.06.02
It seems to me that the current demonization of Israel in the western/intellectual circles is a twenty-first century equivalent of the medieval conception of the Jew as the “devil incarnal” [see The Devil and the Jews, Joshua Trachtenberg, Yale University Press 1943].

_Lilith Myth.

Which pretty much looked like it from where I'm sitting, having mostly spent my time being surrounded by people who keep calling me anti-Semitic for thinking that Israel's (which it's exactly the best measure of Jewish opinion, surely?) foreign policy blows. I'm sorry for putting words in her mouth, I genuinly am.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:33 / 27.06.02
Well, I can certainly understand how irritating it must be to have your views dismissed like that, but getting all het up about it on the board (where most people understand where you're coming from, whether they agree or not) is not really going to do anyone any favours... nor is conflating Jewishness, Israel and Zionism - they are connected but not equivalent.

Moreover, when you do get het up about it, it's a good idea to check yourself before you rant. Your analysis of the historical factors seems unclear to me - perhaps because you were posting in anger - and I'm not sure that it's not informed by an overly partisan viewpoint.

For starters, this:

I am not doubing the rights of the Jews to have their own country, but I ma doubnting the integrity of the people who call for it (no, not all of them). The people who call for it because of The Holocaust- these are the same people who appear on the news calling for the destruction of the Palestinians (or are these interviews faked as part of a media conspiracy against the Jews?).

The Shoah is precisely why Israel should exist - it was the culmination of centuries of abuse directed at Jews of the Diaspora: demonisation, inequality, physical abuse and often murderous purges. It was, in part at least, in order to provide the Jewish people with a land in which they would not have to suffer such treatment that Israel was created.

You also seem to be identifying the creation of Israel with the war that created the Occupied Territories - perhaps this isn't very helpful - I assume by 'terrorist' you mean Sharon here, could be wrong, please correct.

It's also worth remembering that Britain as well as America is largely responsible for the creation of Israel and the form it took.

As for Lilith's points, which seem reasonable to me, I don't know enough about the history of the creation of Israel to agree or disagree with many of them - if anyone can point me in the direction of a good book on the subject I shall be very grateful. I would like to take issue with point three (that Arafat turned down the Camp David peace plan), because it implies that the 97% plan was without blemish - whereas, IIRC, the plan left Israel with control over all the arterial roads and borders (shall look this one up), and Arafat felt he could not accede to the arrangement because of this and because it was not appropriate to agree to the formation of a 'state' which could not control its own borders.

In addition, I don't think that 'liberal intellectual' attitudes towards Israel are necessarily indicative of a deep-rooted anti-semitism; I think it is more a case of seeing Palestinians as underdogs, oppressed by The West. But I can quite see how it might appear to be a recurrence of the demonisation of Jews.
 
 
Lilith Myth
11:15 / 27.06.02
SFD - I know how you felt after the Admiral Duncan, because I too was calling gay friends and was strangely disturbed that I knew what to say.

Do I think there'll be progress if Arafat's replaced? I think Bush is living in la-la land, and despite my personal views on Arafat, I think he is fairly moderate. Jonny Freedland's written a good piece in yesterday's Guardian. (despite eveything I said yesterday about the Guardian).

I'Pin, I didn't say anyone was anti-semitic. I'm not even sure the views here are anti-semitic; I think its rabid-pro-Guardianism and bereft of lots of the facts.

Oh, and I've never seen anyone on the news calling for the "destruction of the Palestinians", although, like all groups, Jews have their fanatics and I'm as disgusted by the actions of someone like Baruch Goldstein as I am by a suicide bomber.

And frankly, I'd like to get some sources from you on this statement:

And saying that the reson for it's existence is due to wealthy Jewish lobbyists who vote for the Pressident isn't anti-Semitic either. It's just a fact. Accept it.

Because from where I'm standing, it sounds like some kind of Jewish conspiracy theory, and I just don't buy that. You might be interested in this Spectator article by Melanie Phillips.

Kit Kat, your point about the Palestinians not wanting a state where they couldn't control their own borders is an interesting one, because the embryonic State of Israel was in exactly the same position in 1948.

In addition, I don't think that 'liberal intellectual' attitudes towards Israel are necessarily indicative of a deep-rooted anti-semitism; I think it is more a case of seeing Palestinians as underdogs, oppressed by The West. But I can quite see how it might appear to be a recurrence of the demonisation of Jews.

Whilst I respect your views, I'm not quite sure of the difference between things "appearing" to be a demonisation and "actually being", apart from some kind of apolgist feel-good factor.

I'll do some research about a good book, but you might want to check out the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, and draw your own conclusions.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:43 / 27.06.02
I suppose what I was trying to say was that people who criticise Israel for its policy regarding Palestine are probably not criticising Israelis *as Jews*, though since many Israelis are Jews the distinction can be hard to draw (I suppose what I might be failing to grasp here is that for many Jews the state of Israel and the state of being a Jew are the same thing - is that anywhere near the money?). And, since it is hard to draw, if one feels persecuted by criticism of the Israeli government, it might feel as if the criticism is anti-Jew. For what it's worth I haven't noticed much, if any, of the characteristic ugliness of older European anti-Semitism, in the western non-partisan press.

I don't think the fact that Israel didn't control its borders in 1948 makes the fact that the Camp David plan would have prevented a Palestinian state from controlling its borders any more palatable; surely it's an undesirable situation for any state or protean state?

Thanks for the link; there's an interesting timeline here... I'd be especially interested in a general history of the area (preferably written by a non-partisan if possible) if anyone knows of one.
 
 
Lilith Myth
13:09 / 27.06.02
I guess everyone sees this differently. Sure there are some people who see the state of being a Jew and the State of Israel as being one and the same.

I'm Jewish, but I'm not an Israeli. I do, however, see Israel as intrinsicly linked with Jewish identity - just as much for the Temlpe Mount and the spirituality of Safed as for roadside falafel stalls, rude taxi drivers and trashy hotels.

Since the start of the second Intifada, there has been a - presumably associated - rise in antisemitism across Europe. France. Europe in general.

Petronella Wyatt wrote in The Spectator that “since September 11 anti-Semitism and its open expression has become respectable at London dinner tables.” Remember the French Ambassador to the UK's remarks in December? You might want to check out this report by by Professor Stephen Scheinberg, National Chair, League for Human Rights and Professor of History, Concordia University, Montreal.

I've studied Jewish history, and I'm disturbed by the they're-all-out-to-get-us approach to Jewish longevity. I genuinely rail against people who are too quick to see anti-semitism in every action. Even so, I feel much less inclined to reveal my identity in recent months, and am acutely aware of the majority of my Jewish friends feeling the same.

That said, I don't think now's a great time to be a Muslim, in Europe, either.

Oh, and a truly non-partisan book on the Middle East might be hard to find.
 
 
_pin
13:12 / 27.06.02
And saying that the reson for it's existence is due to wealthy Jewish lobbyists who vote for the Pressident isn't anti-Semitic either. It's just a fact. Accept it.

Because from where I'm standing, it sounds like some kind of Jewish conspiracy theory, and I just don't buy that. You might be interested in this Spectator article by Melanie Phillips.


Not a conspiracy, merely saying that lobbyists furether their own aims. There is a conspiracy of sorts here, but I'm not saying it's world domination, just self interest on big money scale. It's genuinly not The Jews!, but rather The self serving rich bastards! I have little doubt that if a sizable chunk of lobbyists, and American society, were Arab, and Palestine were crushing Zionists, I'd be bithcing about that instead.

The terrorist I was refering to was actually Bagin (HOW SPELL?! The guy who bombed the King David hotel and so forth, and I think employed Sharron in a "kill people" capacity after he was elected).

And yes, the Holocaust is one of the reasons why they should have a state (I'm sorry that I didn't make my opinion about that clear enough), but some of the people who use it as a justification are some of the people calling for roughly the same thing to happen to the Palestinians. Which makes me stroke my chin and wonder.

And yes, there are numerous shots on English news (I don't know what country you're from, sorry) of grief-stricken family members calling for "an end to Palestine"- as they already got an end to Palestine, it seems, and was presented thus, as them wanting an end to the people who want it back, too.

Also, most of my background information (including the bit about lobbyists) has come from a man I greatly respect (my history teacher, who taught me when I had to learn all this for GCSE coursework).

I also apologise profusly and genuinly for being 17. I don't like it any more then you do. That probablly sounds sarcastic, but it's not. And I'm not using my age as an excuse, just a handy term to define all my stupid twating behaviour. Because of it, I'm just gonna shut up.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:27 / 27.06.02
Whilst I respect your views, I'm not quite sure of the difference between things "appearing" to be a demonisation and "actually being", apart from some kind of apolgist feel-good factor.

I don't know about this. It seems to me that a lot of people who are disgusted by the Holocaust and by the demonisation of Jewish people manage somehow not to think that the only possible position to occupy instead of that is mealy-mouthed flattery of Israel. Whatever my personal position on this one - one thing seems evidently clear to everyone concerned - while 'blame' may be distributed to varying degrees between the UK, the US, the Israeli's and the Palestinians, no one can claim to be entirely free of it.

I'm gay, and I know a lot about demonisation as a result of that - it's not so bad nowadays in the circles in which I move, but it's the kind of thing that happened a fair amount in Norfolk in the 1980s. And I think I can tell the difference (and many other people can as well) between demonising gay people, and criticising the actions of people who claim to represent gay people.

And let's be honest, in the end it doesn't matter who's morally right in all of this - what matters is how a free state of Israel can exist and feel safe and connected with the history and tradition of Judaism ALONGSIDE the other people of the region who should ALSO feel able to exist, feel safe and connected with their own histories and traditions. I'll criticise anyone I like who doesn't think that's the goal, whether they be arab or israeli, and I would not wish to be characterised as demonising people simply because I'd be prepared to point some fingers.
 
 
Lilith Myth
16:02 / 27.06.02
I stand by everything I said on the current climate for Jews in the UK, and still feel uncomfortable with some of the phraseology used - perhaps unwittingly - in this debate. But there's one thing I may not have made clear.

I don't think Israel requires a mealy-mouthed flattery, but I do think she shouldn't have to justify her very existence on a nearly daily basis.

The hardest thing for me, as a Jew, is to support Israel in her imperfections. And whilst the Palestinians are clearly the weaker party, they currently wield enormous powers over Israelis going about their every day life.

But what I really want to say is that I, too, am completely committed to a two state solution, according equal dignity and respect to both the Palestinians and Israelis, and desperately hope this happens without any further loss of life, on either side.
 
 
Baz Auckland
06:51 / 28.06.02
I think although the feeling on the board is mostly pro-Palestinian, I don't think anyone here would want anything other than peace and both to exist side by side.

Going back to 1947, I remember while doing a report in high school on Israel and Palestine a memorable quote: "Palestine has never passed up a chance to shoot itself in the foot". Palestine could have existed in 1947, but the area chose to go to war. In 1967 they tried again and lost the west bank and the sinai.

I don't know if Arafat leaving would be a good thing, but I remember someone mentioning months ago that if these old men who have a long and bitter history would get out of power, maybe some younger newer faces would be more trusting and be able to negotiate better.
 
  

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