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Cherie Blair in human decency, sorry, anti-semitism shock

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
20:18 / 18.06.02
Demonstrate any kind of compassion or understanding towards the Palestinian people? That sounds like Nazi talk to me!"

But what do you think? Was she being insensitive or brave, right or wrong?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:04 / 18.06.02
I thought she was being fairly reasonable- to say "this is what desparate people have resorted to" is not the same thing as saying "this is cool". I question, however, a) why she's mouthing off anyway and b) why anyone cares about her opinion- she's the unelected wife of the pm, for fuck's sake!
Unless there's something I've missed, though, I'm kind of with her on this one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:06 / 18.06.02
As an aside - there was a debate on the radio the other night on this very subject, where someone brought up the subject of Dresden - where civilians were deliberately targeted at little or no risk to those doing the bombing. Hmmm.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:30 / 19.06.02
i suppose her timing could have been seen as a bit 'off', if you want to look for problems with what she said. as stoatie said, she wasn't exactly cartwheeling with happiness about the latest attack, or suicide bombers in general, just saying that desperate times will encourage desperate measures. i'm glad that being tony blair's wife hasn't stopped her from expressing, as the topic abstract says, fairly obvious and moderate things.
 
 
Sax
07:47 / 19.06.02
The only point I'd take issue with is describing suicide bombers as "without hope". They are filled with hope, largely because the promise of a place in heaven and 76 (possibly) virgins awaits.

Other than that, I'd agree with SFD that the only real mistake was her timing with the remarks.
 
 
w1rebaby
09:18 / 19.06.02
It was an extremely uncontroversial and pretty undeniable statement, and it was an appalling spectacle to see Jack Straw and Michael Ancram jumping on her, as if they had a good record or anything.

Sax: I think "without any other hope" would probably have been a better way to put it. And this ~76 virgins thing is blatant islamophobic propaganda, shame on you. Can you really imagine someone thinking "Whahey! If I blow myself up for Allah I get to shag for eternity! Pass the fertiliser!" Somehow I doubt that's a significant motive.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
09:40 / 19.06.02
Still not the best approach, when the unelected 'first lady' appears (and I'm not saying she has) to take a side, when her old man is attempting to create a basis for dialogue from the two countries in this god awful mess.

I do think the media is always watching her for any kind of error and her intentions, however well meaning have been mistrued. I think the press build her up as 'The Power Behind the Throne' - behind the charismatic male leader lies the black widow female intellect. Same with Bill & Hilary.
 
 
Sax
10:11 / 19.06.02
And this ~76 virgins thing is blatant islamophobic propaganda.

Yeah, you're probably right.

"From the moment his first drop of blood spills, he feels no pain and he is absolved of all his sins; he sees his seat in heaven; he is spared the tortures of the grave; he is spared the horrors of Judgment Day; he is married to [70] black-eyed [virgins]; he can vouch for 70 of his family members to enter paradise; he earns the crown of glory whose precious stone is worth all of this world. " (Palestinian Authority daily newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, September 17, 1999)
 
 
w1rebaby
11:07 / 19.06.02
I'm not questioning the fact that the myth exists and is used as a piece of propaganda (though I'm told it's theologically very dubious), I'm questioning the idea that it actually motivates people to blow themselves up. Why don't more Muslims blow themselves up if that's what they're interested in? Sounds like a good deal to me. And what about all the other suicide attacks through the ages by non-Muslims? I dislike the idea because it's a ridiculous simplification of motives that really isn't helpful.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:26 / 19.06.02
Still not the best approach, when the unelected 'first lady' appears (and I'm not saying she has) to take a side, when her old man is attempting to create a basis for dialogue from the two countries in this god awful mess.

But this is an extremely twisted take on the situation, albeit the one that the majority of the mainstream media is presenting. Cherie hasn't *really* taken a side, she's just taken a position which attempts to treat Palestinians as actual human beings rather than demonizing them - it just happens that she's immediately cast as 'taking a side' because this idea is anathema to the position taken by the Israeli government.

Equally, I'm extremely sceptical about the idea that Tony Blair is interested in taking steps to create a meaningful dialogue - he's demonstrated several times that he only ever follows the American line on such matters, and the American line is to support and arm Israel whilst claiming to be engaged in seeking peace and help obfuscate the issue in a variety of ways (including painting the motivation for the intifada as primarily religious fanatacism, rather than, as Cherie Blair was pointing out, desperation born out of oppression). The only kind of 'peace' that the Israeli/American governments are interested in breaks down like this: we take away your homes and treat you as second-class citizens at best, you shut up and put up. I'm sure Blair will go along with that, and I'm sure the media and the middle-classes will applaud him for it.
 
 
_pin
13:05 / 19.06.02
Good Lord! A public figure who you somehow feel should know what's going on in the world actually possesses the ability to form an opinion and give a fuck!! God no! Then people might think it's perfectly OK for other people to give a fuck and then we might live in a world where everyone gives a fuck, stands up and actually opposes all this shit! No more apathy! Fuck! How do we sell our England replica football strips now?!

There is no way she should have apologised. She's has done nothing wrong. She merely pointed out that running through peoples enforced and structurally temporary villages, building walls to prevent them from getting back to the land that used to be theirs so they can work and make a living and try and do something with their lives may well create an atmosphere of hopelessness that is exploited by warlords, terrorists and fundamentalists to continue their undeniably evil work.

OK, so the timing may have blown but for fucks sake! They'd have done this if she'd said it at the height of the seige of Ramallah. And why? Because it's the easiest moral highground to take. All you have to do is shout "Anti-Semitism!" (or for those too stupid to manage that, a simple "Nazi!" will probablly get the point across just as lazily and inacuratly) and say "non-combatants" (I don't know, but is there not a case to be made that the very presence of the Isralei's on the land can be seen as political in these people's eyes? Surely in such a climate, where these pople voted in a man who is famed for a fucking massacre, they must be seen in these peoples eyes as a mass cultural enemy. As this all appears to be a debate about legality and perception - Israel sponsored by America, Palestine by the Soviets. Israel recognized as an offical state, but is Palestine? I'm not sure... - surely there can be a point made that these people are seen by some as combatants in some way) and you're home free!

Heaven fucking forbid people should start thinking and speaking and, you know... functioning in society.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:23 / 19.06.02
Thanks for the rant Pin, but that's nothing to do with what I said.

Okay, perhaps my post was not very clear. Firstly, it should be got straight that what she said has been whipped out of her mouth by the media and distorted, but the official government view is that Cherie should not be questioned on her political views. When she suddenly proffers it so readily, alarm bells start and I would question her motives. The timing was exactly the issue, here. It was a tad insensitive.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:37 / 19.06.02
....And to think that diplomatic dialogue has not been going on is a bit naive, Fly, especially when this was reaching fruition:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,739878,00.html
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:05 / 19.06.02
While I welcome moves toward peace, I don't think that Flyboy is being at all naive in his scepticism Fra Dolcino. The US has a history of proposing peace initiatives without real sincerity as a poltical tactic. Which is not to say that this alleged proposal will not be worth considering, but that we've been down this road before.

Personally, I can't decide if the demonisation of Cherie is more to do with an inflexible point of view on the Middle East or with the outrage that the PM's wife should dare to venture an opinion.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
14:16 / 19.06.02
Fair point. Sorry Fly.

I think you're also right about Cherie. They want to show her as the plotter and thinker of the Blair partnership.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:54 / 19.06.02
...because women thinking is bad, m'kay?

I'm inclined to agree with the school of thought that a reasonable, if possibly ill-judged, comment by Cherie Blair is being used as a tool to attack Tony Blair by proxy. We're back on the whole "Urrgh! She's just like Lady McBeth!" trip.
 
 
invisible_al
17:41 / 19.06.02
Ummm would it be ok for a leading Lawyer to say things about this, because she is actually something big, a QC? or somesuch, has taken the government to court on human rights issues. Fair do's to her to be honest, her timing sucked though.
 
 
_pin
18:47 / 19.06.02
OK, I'm sorry it was a rant. it wasn't meant to be. I'm also sorry, Fra, that it wasn't connected to what you said except by vague and tneuous links of being about the same thing (that's not sarcasm, by the way). I'm sorry in general for lame and shit debate-fu. It's been a long and tough time and I feel like cutting my teeth at it again. Be gentle and, if need's be, ignore me or skim read me or fucking whatever.

And yes, there are implications for peace talks in what she said. And yes, it was insensitivly timed. But no, I don't think the media outrage is really to do with the timing. I think the media outrage just got a bit more steam and looked a bit more defendable and pertinent because of the timing. I'm sure there are people who are genuinly objecting to it simply on the grounds of peace talk threats, there are people objecting to it on grounds of insensitive timing, there are people attacking it on the grounds of "anti-Semitism", there are people attaking it on the grounds that is Cherie Blair and there are people attacking it on the grounds that it's a woman. Of these, the first two are genuine and the latter three are being used by the Daily Mail to sell newspapers. I mean to make a point of the media (it's not even a public outrage, is it?) outrage that has ensued because of this. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear.

I still think public figures should speak their mind. Everyone should. Maybe eventually there'll be some sort of precident for giving a fuck.
 
 
Baz Auckland
20:37 / 19.06.02
Bush has now called off his speech that would have outlined his plan for Israel and Palestine, because "it would be rewarding terrorism."

I always thought that the bombers didnt want peace. Isn't calling off peace talks because of a bombing just giving them what they want?
 
 
w1rebaby
20:57 / 19.06.02
Are you looking for sensible peace-seeking motives in Bush's actions? He's just bandwaggoning. Got to maintain a proper outrage when it's politically suitable, after all.
 
 
higuita
10:29 / 20.06.02
I think looking for anything sensible with Bush is going to be hard, never mind anything as complex as a motive. I realise that thinking of him as a thickie isn't always the best way to approach the man's agenda, but it makes me feel better about the whole thing. He's even making people look back to the grand old days of Ronnie 'alzheimer' Reagan as a golden age of imbecility.

The thing about the Cherie Blair statement has a number of issues around it - any one of which you can jump on given the right angle. It's the same as Blunkett pulling his comms bill. Whatever his motivation, the opposition call it a climbdown or u-turn and make it appear that changing your mind, because you realise something might be a bad idea (I assume, there's proabably more to it), is a bad thing.

With Cherie Blair, she's either speaking out at a bad time, should keep her opinions to herself, is using her husband's position to get publicity for herself, etc etc etc. The base points are - would anyone really care if she wasn't married to Tony? As she is, does she forfeit her rights as an individual? Should she think more about her husband's standing and position than she does her own? Gah.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:53 / 20.06.02
there's certainly a line of thought that 'first ladies' should look good and shut up. in britain, of course, we've only had one female prime minister and there was little chance of the 'first man', as it were - dennis thatcher - worrying about anything other than how much whiskey was in his glass. the queen, of course, has a different 'problem' in that her husband is a nasty piece of work whose frequent offensive remarks are affectionately written off as 'gaffes'.

it's a real disappointment that cherie blair apologised for her comment.
 
 
sleazenation
12:12 / 20.06.02
but she didn't apologise for her comment did she? i thought she just apologised if she'd caused any offense... a different thing...
 
 
Loomis
12:39 / 20.06.02
Some high-up person at my work just sent this petition complaining about Cherie Blair to all employees in offices around the country. Am I wrong to find it a bit dodgy to be sent this as an employee? Out of all the employees being sent this at my company, there must be a number of people with Palestinian friends or relatives, who would be very offended by the remarks below.


"We the undersigned would like to express our strong disappointment with the recent comments by the wife of Tony Blair expressing sympathy for the Palestinian Suicide killers. She recently stated "young Palestinian suicide bombers feel that they have no hope but to blow themselves up." This could not be further from the truth. There are people throughout the world in far more desperate circumstances than today's Palestinian youth, and yet no other group on this planet perpetrates such intentional atrocities aimed at civilians. The Palestinian youth are directed towards such savage acts by the Palestinian culture and leadership which glorifies both the killers and their families. Moreover, comments such as those of Cherie Blair (emanating from the wife of one of the two great forces behind the fight against global terror) serve no purpose other than to encourage more suicide terror. Her comments are the exact type of response that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Force 17, The Al Aksa Brigade, Arafat's own Fatah, etc. are hoping for when the initiate these massacres. Unfortunately, Mrs. Blair's comments serve to promote, rather than limit, such savage activities."
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:17 / 20.06.02
Concerning the timing of the remark, remind me how long it has been since the Israelis and Palestinians could make it through as little as a week without somebody being killed over this? When exactly would have been a good time, given that the comment covers a fairly fundamental aspect of the conflict which must be considered if there's to be any change of a resolution? A few years from now, maybe.

I can understand if the families of the victims are offended by statements like this(especially when soundbitten out of context), but that does not make them any less true or relevant. It's not a nice thing to have to say, but there are rather larger concerns at stake than the emotional wellbeing of the families. Although it gets a bit easier if you remember that until this is dealt with properly there will only be more victims.

Granted, you could argue that Cherie didn't have to mention this in public, but I'm willing to cut some slack to anything which tries to restore some balance to the coverage of this deadly circus.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:48 / 20.06.02
Well - she was responding to a question, it's not like she set out to Make A Statement. Given the current level of media interest in Tony Blair, it's almost hard to see what she could have said that wouldn't have been controversial...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:56 / 20.06.02
That thing you were sent is written by a fathead anyway, Loomis:

She recently stated "young Palestinian suicide bombers feel that they have no hope but to blow themselves up." This could not be further from the truth.

Ummm...
 
 
Loomis
15:13 / 20.06.02
Yeah that was rather a gem wasn't it KCC? "Could not be further from the truth" belongs in your cliche thread. I also particularly liked the bit about how plenty of other people are that desperate and yet don't resort to suicide bombing. You naughty Palestinians, why can't you behave like all the other nice down-trodden people? Why, you're giving oppression a bad name!
 
 
w1rebaby
16:10 / 20.06.02
That's exceptionally dodgy, and I'd complain. Or at least send it to Private Eye.
 
 
rizla mission
10:38 / 21.06.02
Flyboy and Pin: right fucking on.

It seemed to me to be a pretty un-controversial, reasonable, inoffensive statement, and these fuckheads who've got nothing better to do than get all self-righteous and make a fuss should, well, fuck off and leave us all alone frankly.. I can't believe the stupid stuff that passes for "controversy" these days.. if it carries on like this, public figures will be too scared to ever say anything..

I saw Ann Widdecombe carrying on on the news the other night and got so anrgy I threw the remote control at the TV and broke it (the remote control, not the TV)..

Gee. That post was well thoughtout.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:58 / 21.06.02
I go with the "seems a reasonable enough comment to me" camp.
And as regards the "it's not despair, it's the promise of eternal paradise" thing- if you weren't in such a bad situation, would that kind of propaganda be attractive?
 
 
Tom Coates
13:01 / 22.06.02
Everyone is talking about the timing of her statement - but if we're honest, when else could such a statement be made? Would it be more or less appropriate when Israel have just sent in lots of troops to beat someone up on the Palestinian side instead? Or perhaps we can talk about THIS suicide bomber only after the next one has happened.

The interesting thing for me is that you wonder if it gives a hint of Blair's true feelings on the matter - feelings that he may feel are impractical to work on.

Regarding the e-mail that's been transcribed above - I think it's an absurdly offensive thing to do, considering the obvious complexities of the political situation - and I think it's an interesting aside of the 9/11 horrors that now people seem to think that if you're a state you can't do wrong, while if you're an individual any political action is tantamount to global terror and Al Qaeda. That's not to say that a suicide bomber isn't a terrorist. Because of course they are. But let's be honest - it's not often that rich and comfortable individuals in rich and nominally liberal countries suddenly decide to blow each other up. There's clearly some cause and some feeling that there's no better way - whether they're right or wrong....
 
 
Loomis
10:39 / 24.06.02
Exactly Tom. This "if you're not with us you're against us" rhetoric bodes poorly for the prospect of peace, not just in the middle east, but anywhere in the world, especially anywhere Dubbya turns his paranoid eye.

Personally, I don't find the concept of suicide bombing so alien. In western countries we grow up with war stories of "noble sacrifice" and "going willingly to certain death for a good cause". Strapping a bomb to yourself doesn't sound that much crazier than going over the top at the Somme. Same senseless waste. And as for killing civilians, is it much better to shoot a conscript just out of high school? I think the concept of it being okay to kill people because they wear a uniform needs some interrogation. It always seems to horrify people when they hear of civilian casualties, maybe because it seems more real than just hearing statistics of military fatalities. But one killing is no less tragic than another. The division between whom it's okay to kill and whom it's not appears to prevent us thinking about the reality of war.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:52 / 24.06.02
I agree with you when it comes to conscripts, but perhaps military casualties among 'career' servicemen are less controversial (for example - anyone going into the armed services in the UK where there is no conscription *should have* accepted the idea that there is a considerable risk attached to their choice, and if they aren't familiar with the risks of being in the armed services then recruitment policy should be examnied...). Less controversial, but not less upsetting.

However, for those who find the killing of anyone abhorrent, the addition of a uniform probably makes a killing no more justifiable. So it really depends on whether one thinks that killing in the context of war is justifiable or not...

There is a parallel between suicide bombers and conscripts on the Somme, but I am not sure that it is entirely convincing - a conscript had no choice, unless he wished to becpome a conscientious objector (which might or might not have been an offence at the time, I can't remember); whereas a suicide bomber has, in some way, actively chosen to take that action. No doubt some conscripts in WWI were thoroughly gung-ho as well, but I think the basis for action is slightly different.

I am interested in the question whether this Cherie episode was actually blown up by the press in a further effort to denigrate the entire Blair administration... certainly Number 10 seems to think that, in the absence of a credible opposition, the press are picking away at the government on whatever issue they can find; but then, they would, wouldn't they?
 
 
Loomis
12:35 / 24.06.02
That's a fair point about the choice of the inidividual. My main idea was just to point out that the mindset of someone who would willingly die is not as alien as the media would have us believe. The notion of sacrificing one's life (in war or otherwise) is as prevalent in the west as in those countries where, according to Dubbya, "they don't have the same values as you and me". In WW2 the allies couldn't understand how anyone could do such an alien thing as a kamikazee raid, while they sent many soldiers of their own on missions that would result in certain death.

As far as the civilian thing goes, it could be a bit abstract, but there is a sense in which every citizen of a country is responsible for actions done in its name. I don't know how far I would argue it, but one could say that if we don't raise an objection to our country's actions then we condone them. On the other hand of course, history is full of the slaughter of civilians in retaliation for what their government has done, which is hardly justifiable, so where does that leave us?

I share your dillemma as to whether we can justify killing of any kind, within war or without. I'm certainly not capable of making a decision on that one, though the relative value of life in the public perception leaves me feeling uncomfortable. And by extension, the way in which the killing is done. Everyone jumps up and down about nukes and chemical weapons, but we can still do a pretty good job on the human race with "conventional" weapons. In my book conventional weapons are sticks and stones (or names, if you want to save your bones). Hiroshima was horrific and of course we should be terrified or a recurrence, but Dresden was no picnic. When the media pronounces on which form of killing is "conventional" and which is not, it makes me question how we all got so comfortable with the concept of mass killings of any form, that the only qualms we have are about how it's done.
 
  

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