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Underground > Switchboard >

Pitiless Genocidal Monster of the Week

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We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:41 / 25.10.01

There's nothing wrong with being angry about that (although I don't know, after the fact of the WTC's destruction, that it was possible to avoid massive loss of life somewhere - either because the West struck back, or because it did not).

What I'm saying to you is that using those terms freely, even in supposed consciousness of their loaded nature, simply reinforces the possibility they invoke: that there are people who are not people, who can't be talked to, who must be hated.

There ain't.

You're the smart guy, here. You're educated, you're supposed to have the high ground to see what's happening. That's the tax you pay for your knowledge, that's the duty of being clever. You don't have the right to get pissed off and not think things through. So yes, howl blue murder about the bombing. But don't hand the opposition (the propagandists on both sides) a free ride by buying their bullshit underlying notions.

More soon...

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:49 / 25.10.01

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
But don't hand the opposition (the propagandists on both sides) a free ride by buying their bullshit underlying notions.

See, I don't think my opposition is "the propagandists on both sides". Just because I don't necessarily agree with the reasons other people have for wanting the bombing of Afghanistan to stop, doesn't mean that we're not on the same side.

(Because you've got to know that Bin Laden himself is absolutely loving the bombing. America and the UK are giving him the war he wants.)

More soon, yes, and some of it in a post (that fortunately I had the foresight to save yesterday) for the 'peaceful means' thread, because I think there's some crossover...

I also think that this article by Charlotte Raven, of whom I'm usually not a fan, is relevant.

quote:In this climate, the only criticism of the government that plays is one that takes issue with tactics. You can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the US and British forces are equipped for a winter war, but you can't say, as Marsden did, that the whole thing is a stinky business. Those who try are dismissed as hopeless naifs who have simply failed to grasp the "realities" of a situation best described by a diagram covered with arrows.
No one is more sensitive to the charge of being out of touch with "reality" than the poor old British left. Their fear of being thought childish for getting flustered by civilian corpses has resulted in a bullish engagement with pro-war commentators that judges the action purely on the basis of whether or not it will "work". Any squeamishness about state-sponsored death per se is put aside in favour of a cool-headed assessment of the allies' strategic goals. If they ever do mention any emotional or moral response to the atrocities, it is to distance themselves from what Suzanne Moore calls "naive pacifism". Nothing would shame them more, it seems, than to be caught out in some mindless display of humanity for the innocent victims of a war they will neither wholeheartedly condemn nor support.

[ 25-10-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:56 / 25.10.01

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
I don't know... that it was possible to avoid massive loss of life somewhere - either because the West struck back, or because it did not.

Just curious: if the West hadn't struck back in the manner they have, where do you think the massive loss of life would have come in? Other than loss of life which is now more likely to happen and in greater numbers because they have struck back (eg, reprisal attacks on US, UK soil etc...)?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

22:41 / 25.10.01

quote:Just because I don't necessarily agree with the reasons other people have for wanting the bombing of Afghanistan to stop, doesn't mean that we're not on the same side.Not what I said. I said that if you invoke the idea of the monster, you leave everyone else free to do the same. I say that anyone who wants me to believe someone else is a monster is not on my side. That includes you, by the way.

Yell at me for what I actually write, for God's sake. It's not like I'm not obnoxious without your assistance.

There are no monsters. There's just us, under other circumstances. The more you howl 'Monster' the more you give credence to the idea. And the more this shameful bullshit will go on.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:50 / 26.10.01

Responses in 'New World Crisis' should refer to this reality only.

Thank you.

20:58 / 26.10.01

quote:Originally posted by @GOD:

Have you bothered to search for his bloodline? He is a monster.

Oh yeah, what is his bloodline then?

Jack The Bodiless

12:12 / 27.10.01

Ignore the silly cunt. He's trying to be a fisher of men again...

10:23 / 30.10.01

[moderator hat on] keep to the topic, people.

10:44 / 07.11.01

Bunch of sissy peacnik losers in here.If you love the Taliban so much go join the jihad.I cant wait till Al Qauda bombs London and Australia.Then maybe you fag euro-scum would gain a new perspective.Get a grip on reality sissys.

12:13 / 07.11.01

Yeah and i can't wait til the terrorists attack New York, that'll stop those dumb Americans funding terrorist groups such as the IRA and its splinter groups.

Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

Now getting back to the real world where conflict resolution that does not necesitate bloodshed on either side is seen as a GOOD thing...

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: sleazenation ]

reidcourchie

13:27 / 07.11.01

Reality sissy?

16:50 / 07.11.01

Right, Baz:

Bunch of sissy peacnik losers in here.If you love the Taliban so much go join the jihad.I cant wait till Al Qauda bombs London and Australia.Then maybe you fag euro-scum would gain a new perspective.Get a grip on reality sissys.

1: When was Australia in Europe? I know they say some Americans have no idea of geography, but Jesus wept son, it's the other side of the Globe, fer fucks sake.

2: Did the terrorists, if they were Afghan, who flew planes (not bombed) into the WTC and Pentagon fly from Afghanistan?

No. They flew from America. They were already in America. There are terrosists, in all probability, still in America.

And they are currently watching your country - and the UK - blow the shit out of Afghanistan. What are they going to do? Sit back and say 'oh, right, best renounce the jihad?'

Doubt it. In fact, what is more likely to happen is the reverse. They will get angry, and strike again. How do you know what the US is doing is not putting you more at risk?

And meanwhile, many of the people who are dying are innocent civilians, who hate the Taliban and were already suffering. Even the UN (you may have heard of these people) are saying so.

And if this America you stand up for hates the Taliban so much, why did they (a) arm them to fight Russia (b) train them for the same reason and (c) give them millions of dollars to fight the war on drugs?

I am not a sissy, or a peacenik. But I'm not stupid either, and there are questions which need to be asked about this war.

And as for your crack about wanting to see London get bombed...

Er right. That has never happened before. Nowhere on mainland Britain has ever been bombed by terrorists, as far as I'm aware.

(Hint. This is irony. Look irony up in a dictionary sometime, eh? Somewhere just after Ireland, you may find.)

The Damned Yankee

23:14 / 07.11.01

Hey Baz, do you know what a Manichean is? The Manicheans were a heretical Christian sect in the Middle Ages who believed that the world was divided equally between Good and Evil, and all creation either fell in with one camp or the other.

The Manicheans got stomped eventually, but their name lives on as a term for a point of view that sees the world only in terms of black and white with no shades of grey in between. Cases in point: Osama bin Laden has a Manichean worldview, as does George W. Bush. Both men adopt a "those who are not with us are against us" attitude.

But the thing is, the world doesn't operate according to the Manichean worldview. Opposing the bombing in Afghanistan does not mean support for the Taliban. All we're really accomplishing is further destruction in one of the world's poorest nations, bombing a people who have been ground almost to paste already by a Soviet invasion, followed by a bloody civil war, and then followed by an almost equally bloody "peace" under the Taliban's oppressive rule.

The Taliban and anyone with the means already hared it out of Kabul long before the bombs started dropping. Our bombs aren't hitting them. The only ones left in the city are those too poor, too sick, too old, or too young to leave.

Bombing these people will not avenge 9/11.

Given the tone of your post, I rather doubt that you're considering a well thought-out, reasonable retort defending your position with logic or, hell, even proper grammar. No doubt the words "faggot" and "Euro-trash" will figure prominently in said retort, and probably even worse for me, since I'm an American.

But, as I've pointed out to another of your trollish ilk, I am also an American who signed up to become an Infantryman during the Gulf War, and I served my country faithfully for six years. My question to you is: Are you willing to do the same? You talk a good fight, but then most trolls do. Why bother with one lousy Internet message board out of thousands when you could be actually putting your money where your mouth is?

Get thee to a recruiter.

23:39 / 07.11.01

At risk of attracting Nick's ire, can I nominate whichever aspect of the shambling Howard-Beazley thing wins Saturday's Australian election as the next pitiless genocidal monster of the week?

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:44 / 12.11.01

He even *looks* evil...

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:44 / 12.11.01

My father has a good rule of thumb: that being that any person you can picture in a Scout's uniform is unfit to hold public office. And so...

Of course, if you use this as the yardstick to judge leaders by, the halls of power would be pretty empty. A-ke-la, we'll do our best!

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:44 / 12.11.01

What I didn't realise is that the Liberal Party in Oz really *are* descended from Nazis, so to speak - this is what their founder, Bob Menzies, said in 1941:

quote:There must be no talk of hanging Hitler or destroying Nazism. Hitler has done many great things for Germany and there is a great Australia can learn from him.

Our thoughts are with you, Aussies...

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:44 / 12.11.01

More info on Menzies' leanings: Lateline story about a letter, a snippet from Hansard, Guardian (?) article.

Nice to know, though, that Keating keeps on kickin'.

Some of the Melbourne posse might be a bit more clued in on this than I am, though - this be google-posting only.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:43 / 18.03.03

God, I hate being right.

"Onward Christian soldiiiiiieeers, marching as to..."

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:58 / 18.03.03

No, you don't.

By the way, try putting those two pictures side by side. It's scary.

Regrettable Juvenilia

18:49 / 18.03.03

The contrast was what I was going for.

But, er, are you seriously suggesting I'm happier with the situation as is, rather than if I'd been proved wrong and Blair wasn't about to join Bush in conspiring to murder thousands of Iraqis?

19:27 / 18.03.03

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