Barbelith Underground > Comic Books > He-man and other toy related comics

What comics in the Top 25 do you honestly think hold much appeal for a mainstream audience? The Top 50?
None of them. I don't understand why since something which sells well to the niche market of superhero fans should be sold to people who don't share that interest.

Bingo. We're totally on the same page. I don't know where that little tempest came from!

You keep throwing around the word "niche" like it's either a dirty word, or you're conflating it with "small" "insignificant" or "unprofitable".

Not a dirty word at all. Apple and Mercedes operate in a niche market. I'm not afraid of comics being a niche industry. Or rather, remaining a niche industry. By niche, incidentally, I mean small, which at 100k sales for the average top monthly, the comic industry is.

Ideally, wouldn't you want to market different products to different audiences?

Yes. I see the nostalgia books as new product for a different audience. The main flaw of the comics industry isn't lack of publicity, but rather lack of different product. Again, there are exceptions, but just look at the Top 100 books. Getting people into shops does nothing if there isn't product to give them. I think we both agree that there currently is work out there with potential for mass appeal, and I think we both agree that there isn't very much at the moment, and there should be more.

This is where the logic of "well, this is the best selling comic. therefore, it's the most accessable comic" falls apart. Transformers and New X-Men might sell better, but there's a lot of things put out by folks like Oni, Drawn & Quarterly and Fantagraphics that have a much larger potential audience because they have more in common with popular tv shows and movies.

I agree with this to an extent, but I feel that much of the material put out by those companies is very much aimed at the "aware geek" demographic, as opposed to the straight "geek" demographic that buys Thunderbolts. And rightly or wrongly, we need to accept the fact that there wasn't an outside push for Transformers and it easily trampled the other best-selling books on the market. This still suggests that the material being offered by the majors just isn't appealing to enough people to create Transformers numbers, and the sales figures for some of the better alternative stuff can't even compete with the lowest sales of the majors. This is despite a comics industry in which the average reader is surely aware of companies like Oni if only through Previews coverage, online coverage and Kevin Smith. Now, could Murder Me Dead sell a lot more if it was printed by a major or given a media push? Yes. Could it compete with Transformers? I doubt it.

You can at least sell them better to women and 'arty' types, anyway. I've been going on for a long time that one of the best moves that those aforementioned comics companies could do would be to give away free samples at art schools.

This would be a brilliant move, but art students are another niche market. I'm not knocking them, and we should get books out there, but we shouldn't confuse them with the mainstream. I think comics will become a mainstream commodity when soccer moms are reading them while waiting in the parking lot to pick up their kids.

re: Spider-Man They're not stampeding to buy them.
Well, there's a lot of reasons for that - for a lot of people, the film was a novelty, a nostalgia trip. A big event movie that you just had to see, or as someone I know put it "you're just not American, or something.

It doesn't really matter what the reasons are. All that matters is that these people don't care about reading Spider-Man comics. Awareness of the industry can't be a factor here, because everybody knows Spider-Man is a comic book character.

I need to remind you that while everybody is aware that Spider-Man comics exist, they don't know which one to get because there are so many, and there's no advertisements around saying "BUY THIS SPIDER-MAN COMIC!" on tv or in magazine adverts.

I'm not sure how much ads would help when it comes to this sort of thing. In the Internet age, anybody who wants to read a Spider-Man comic can easily find a local store. They can do the same with the Yellow Pages. If there's no influx of interested readers after the film, we can't blame this solely on the lack of advertising. At some level we have to accept that millions of people wanted to see Spider-Man on film, but are not interested in reading a comic about him. I don't want to be argumentative when we're agreeing on so much, but I also don't see the multitude of Spider-Man comics as a problem. Surely it's an asset - especially for intelligent retailers, who can point interested readers toward specific titles based on what they liked about the film.

But why should 'soccer moms' be the first niche audience to go after? It makes more sense to first court the people who are most openminded about comics but aren't currently buying them

That's fine, but there's a difference between "expanding the current readership" and "attracting a mainstream audience." If you want to push for the latter, that means CEOs and soccer moms. If you want the former, then yes, there are dozens of ideal demographics to shoot for.

I already made the analogy about "early adapters" and how new technologies are introduced to the public, so I'm not going to explain it again, but that's really how it's going to have to be.

I think you're right on this, but we need to get the industry to make work that appeals to these new groups. Right now, I just don't see it in the majority of cases. Sandman is still fairies and elves to a lot of people. Transmet is just juvenile in its obsession with swearing and its lack of intelligent characterization. Grant Morrison writes primarily for the same market that wants superheroes, and so does Alan Moore. I'm not sure the big guns are helping to open comics to a wider readership, although there will be specific exceptions, obviously. I guess small press is going to be how we expand the readership. That and manga and licensed nostalgia properties.

The attitudes and ideas that you are expressing are the same ideas that are holding back the industry - you basically share the same opinion that the average fanboy has, the average comic store owner, and the outlook of publishers like Marvel and DC. Everything you write is either pessismistic or cynical, you seem to lack hope entirely.

I think you're being unfair. I was addressing a specific instance when I joined this thread, pointing out that the nostalgia books are selling more than the rest of the industry for a reason, and we shouldn't really be criticizing them for being what they are. Like or not, those books add to the diversity of the medium, and in most cases are examples of indie companies trumping the majors. If I'm cynical, it's only because I accept that the stated goals of the industry, such as expanding the readership, are at odds with the product being put out, namely books that are catering to a dwindling niche base. It isn't cynical to point out that many of the industry's brightest stars and most well-regarded works also cater to this niche audience, and are unlikely to appeal to a mainstream readership. If the industry is to grow, it isn't going to be done by holding up Grant Morrison as our best writer, or thrusting Watchmen into people's hands. These things appeal to the current reader base of about 100,000 people worldwide. They arguably do not appeal to a mass audience, as evidenced by many things, but notably the size of the market and the reluctance of the mainstream to accept costumed heroes in anything other than summer popcorn films.

You seem overly fond of the mess that an artform has gotten itself into

I'm indifferent to it. There's nothing wrong with comics being a niche artform. There will always be comics, and there will always be the economics allowing comics to be made. The readership may expand or contract, but it will always be there. There are more esoteric industries. Frankly I don't care if the industry remains at its current level or expands to the point where Eagle has as many readers as West Wing has viewers.

wouldn't that be a good incentive to throw away serialization and focus on making books?

Sure. I would love the industry to put out more books. I think there's plenty of room for $1 monthlies printed on cheap newsprint, with glossy collections available later. In fact, it boggles my mind that this isn't the industry norm. Flood the direct and indirect market with disposable $1 monthlies and put out glossy collections every six months.

It has nothing to do with what comics sales would actually look like if comics realistically reached an equivalent of the audience of television or film.

It's worth remembering that at one time comics did have sales figures analogous to television. Some books sold in the millions. Something happened between then and now, and it wasn't just the direct market or the lack of advertising. At some point, most people decided they weren't interested in what comics had to offer. I submit that the bulk of the industry, including many of its most prized creators, have yet to realize this and begin offering material the lost audience would want to read. Compare the diversity of the bulk of the current comics market with the one in Japan, where top books still sell in the millions.

If you want to stimulate growth by bring in new consumers, those new consumers are more important because we've already got the superhero kids covered, y'know?

What superhero books are made for kids these days? I wish I could remember that quote about Young Justice being written for 40-year-olds...

I think that those Transformers/GI Joe/etc comics are catering to people who already go into comic shops, and at best lure in people who have bought comics in the past but quit the habit. If it brings those people back into shops the same way that a lot of the things that Marvel has been doing with its line, that's great for those publishers and the shops that sell those comics, but those people are not going to help the industry to grow.

If sales on top books double or triple because Transformers attracts more readers than New X-Men, then it is a good thing for the industry, because it generates more cash for retailers to stock and promote the quality books they feel will retain readership. And it's always possible, however unlikely, that these nostalgia books are actually quality reads. I'd certainly describe New X-Men that way.

I don't understand how Transformers is going for a different audience than any given superhero comic.

Transformers sold at least 10 times as many copies as the average DC superhero book. If it sold to the same audience, it would have had the same sales figures. Ergo, Transformers is selling, at least in part, to a different audience.

The main flaw of the comics industry isn't lack of publicity, but rather lack of different product. Again, there are exceptions, but just look at the Top 100 books.
See, I think this is where yr wrong - there is a diversity of product, but you mostly just pretend that anything that's not in the Diamond 100 doesn't exist.

Once again, you're not actually paying attention to what I'm saying. I've said several times that there is diversity in the medium - but that diversity is very small. There's virtually no diversity in the Top 100 books, and there's not really that much more diversity in the Top 300. You also seem to miss the point where I suggest that small press books are the best chance we have to attract new readers. I think you're arguing just to argue, because we're saying a lot of the same things.

However, the Top 100 is important, and in many ways books outside of it may as well not exist, because they're not carried in many stores. The Top 100 is not inherently good or bad, but it is a barometer worth paying attention to.

You can't get around the idea that to expand the market to different demographics, it's important to promote those people instead of just yr "comic writer gliteratti" like Morrison, Moore, and Ellis.

I've already said this, too, but it looks like I will have to say it twice. There is a distinction between "appealing to a mainstream audience" and "expanding the readership." The readership can be expanded by promoting certain books (most likely small press work) to specific demographics - art students and so forth. Targeting these demographics means creating work that appeals to them; this work may not necessarily appeal to a mainstream audience any more than the majority of books written to appeal to the direct market readership appeals to the target expansion audience. You seem to be willfully ignoring me when I point this out.

To repeat: I am not saying that there is no diversity in the market. I am not saying that there are no comics appealing to a wider readership. What I am saying is that by and large the bulk of today's comics are written for the direct market readership, often by people who used to be direct market readers, and that it's not rocket science that this material, however celebrated by the direct market, may not hold wide appeal to a larger audience.

Mark Waid is writing for the direct market. His books are unlikely to attract a wider audience not already interested in superhero comics. Grant Morrison is also writing for the direct market, but has potential to attract a slightly wider audience interested in alternative fiction. Alan Moore has the ability to write for a wider audience, but all too often writes for the direct market. Works written for the direct market are unlikely to hold much appeal outside of the direct market. I would argue that this is demonstrated by the decreasing size of the readership, which began as a broader demographic but shrank as mainstream books targeted the direct market segment rather than this broader segment.

I get the impression that you think "out of sight, out of mind" about the several hundred comics that are perfect for luring in new readers from outside the industry

Feel free to name 100 comics that are perfect for luring in new readers from outside the industry.

fatbeard

How is this any less inflammatory than "nerd porn?"

Victims of a publishing industry and retail outlets who are terrified of reaching out to a larger audience, who are so intellectually retarded and/or financially impoverished from years of bad business decisions that they don't even know where to begin with that process.

I find it funny that you claim my analysis is insulting and then offer this up with a straight face. Because most people don't care about comics, publishers and retailers are intellectually retarded?

On a level playing field, I swear to god, a lot of that "alternative" stuff would be far eclipsing "Transformers numbers".

What, in the same way that films like Secrets and Lies make far higher box office than Star Wars? If comics were a mainstream medium, I suspect Transformers would still far outsell Acme Novelty Library, if only because of the nature of pop culture.

You're still fixating on the sales habits of the existing readers - the industry will continue to stagnate and dwindle if you keep focusing on them, if the industry hopes to survive, everybody needs to focus on bringing in new readers. That's never ever going to happen if we use the existing fatbeard audience as a measure of sales success.

I am in total agreement with you on this point. My argument is that many of comics' most celebrated works and artists target that audience and would not do well outside of it. The industry is small partly because of advertising, partly because of the direct market, partly because of price and partly because it's an industry that largely targets to a "fatbeard" audience. Watchmen is a "fatbeard" book. It's not going to bring your mom into comics.

You can't expect to become a "mainstream commodity" overnight. You have to start with the most receptive people (a very diverse group of peoples, I think - not just "geeks from other areas") and keep building and building. You might not get to the 'soccer moms' til 30 years down the line, but like I said, you and the rest of the industry focus too much on rejection and that's no way to do business.

I'm not focusing on rejection at all. You're putting words in my mouth again. All I'm saying is that expanding the audience and becoming a mainstream medium are two different things. This isn't a radical statement.

I can't believe that yr so willing to ignore the lack of advertising and pop cultural presence of actual comics (NOT COMICS CHARACTERS) in the media, and you just go straight to "they don't want them". I think that's a huge leap of judgement to make, and is very insulting.

It's not a huge jump at all, because most people know these characters as comic characters! People know there are Superman comics, that there are Spider-Man comics! They just don't care. This isn't insulting, or outrageous. This is people genuinely not being interested. You can't make people want to read comics. And again, it's worth remembering that the top comics used to regularly sell millions of copies per issue! The mass audience stopped reading comics. Some of the blame for this must ultimately lie with the comics themselves. They're not telling stories that most people want to read; at least, mainstream comics aren't.

Still, to go from "maybe people don't want to read Spider-Man comics" to "people aren't interested in reading comics" is a) implausible logic b) self-defeating c) elitist and d) insulting the intelligence and willingness to change of several million people.

Don't be absurd. That people aren't interested in reading comics is plainly obvious from the fact that literally millions of people know about them, and only thousands of people buy them. It's a hard fact for comics evangelists to accept, but people just aren't interested. I mean, how many times have you lent someone that perfect comic, the one that's just their taste, only to have them say, "Well, that was good but I'm not interested in any more?"

I think you're right on this, but we need to get the industry to make work that appeals to these new groups.
What, so you can just dismiss it as unappealing to the masses when it fails to sell well among the fatbeards in fatbeard-run stores, that it's not doing "Transformers numbers"?

Dude, if Transformers outsells all those other books, it's doing something right. It's appealling to more readers than any other comic. Just because that embarrasses you doesn't change anything.

there IS something inherantly wrong with comics being a marginalized artform.

Why? I'm serious here. Why shouldn't it be any more marginalized than the opera, or performance art? What can comics offer that the average person can't get from watching TV or reading books? And what specific comics are currently offering these things?

There will always be comics, and there will always be the economics allowing comics to be made.
I don't think that will be true if the industry as a whole continues to kill itself. It's not a big stretch to assume that since the industry is not searching out new audiences, the industry will die along with its last generation of readers, who may very well be the current readership in their 20s.

Successful small press stuff means the economics of the industry would have to be miniscule to collapse. You can break even on small press work with quite small print runs. There will always be enough people coming into the industry to keep it alive at the smallest level. There are always people interested in odd industries. Think trainspotters or historical reinactments.

One of the things that happened between "then and now" was the political demonization of comics in the late 50s, something that the industry has never recovered from. You conveniently leave that out, just the same as you ignore that the huge sales boom you speak of was before televisions were in every home in America.

So what, your argument is that comics have never been able to compete for mainstream interest since the 1930s? I'm sorry, but the '50s argument is rubbish. People don't suddenly lose interest in things because their congressman tells them to. And surely the pop boom in the '60s would have counteracted that anyway. And if not that, then the late '80s boom in which suddenly comics were suddenly cool again and respectible for adults. But those millions of new readers ultimately left, too...

is it really the fault of the non-comics reading audience? If the industry continues to neglect massive chunks of its potential audience and fail to promote work that could reach other audiences, why should we expect anyone to want them? Why is the artform to blame, and not the industry?

You'll note I've only ever blamed the industry, and not the art form.