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Sexuality and Age

 
  

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Shortfatdyke
11:59 / 07.06.02
following on from tom's suggestion in the policy, i am going to kick start this subject and see what happens.

firstly, on the issue of the young and sexuality - the last time i was in cornwall, i saw three girls of no more than 11 or 12 wearing very low cut shirts, make up etc, walking down the street. i found it very disturbing. i think what worried me most was that i felt they'd chucked away a lot of the good things about being that young in favour of pretending to be grown up. when i was in boston a girl of maybe 5 or 6 (the benette case i think it was) had been brutually murdered, with one or both of the parents suspected. the motive, as i recall, appeared to be sexual. pics of the girl showed her to be a young 'beauty queen'. babies dressed like 'glamourous' women seem extremely dubious to me, and there didn't seem to be too much fuss going about that aspect, more that it was a pity that such a good looking girl had died.

when i was 29, i went out with a schoolgirl. she was 17 - just - and i used to pick her up from school. it was totally consensual but i got some sneers from people who saw me, frankly, as a paedophile. was it wrong of me to go out with her?

i'm upfront about being a dyke. there are many reasons for this, but it pisses people off both on the street - where a lot of men either think i'm betraying them because i'm not dressing for their pleasure or they think i'm going to compete for available women (!), but also, interestingly, online - never mind barbelith, the name shortfatdyke sends some on *lesbian* messageboards into a screaming rage.

should *any* sexuality be flaunted?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:03 / 07.06.02
correction - the child murdered was called jonbenet ramsay. she was 6 years old.
 
 
Ierne
12:34 / 07.06.02
i think what worried me most was that i felt they'd chucked away a lot of the good things about being that young in favour of pretending to be grown up. – sfd

I can really resonate with that statement. Thinking back to people I've known for 10 -12 years (since we were teenagers), the ones who couldn't wait to be "grown-up" are the ones who became more disillusioned with the reality of actually being an adult. Once they realized it wasn't all about drinking, screwing, smoking, and snorting, many of them wished that they had done other things during their adolescence that would have prepared them a bit more for adulthood.
 
 
drzener
12:50 / 07.06.02
Age does matter when it comes to sexuality. Around here it is common enough to see girls like you described, 11 to 12 and dressing to highlight their sexuality. I think it is a bad thing because a lot of them ending up having kids before leaving school. There goes any chance for education they have. AS well as that a lot of the time the fathers of these kids are scumbags that aren't capable of giving a shit about their kids too. This leads on to another generation growing up who don't give a fuck about society or themselves and have no interest in anything at all really.
In Ireland we have a fairly serious problem developing with teen joyriding and I think its linked. To me its not just a moral question but something that affects society on a deep and real level.
A complicated question to me is where you draw the line? I think the age of consent is there for a reason. Teenagers do need time to develop maturity and I don't think this should be rushed at all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 07.06.02
Around here it is common enough to see girls like you described, 11 to 12 and dressing to highlight their sexuality. I think it is a bad thing because a lot of them ending up having kids before leaving school.

Um....because "sexy" clothes are laced with highly-trained radioactive semen?
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:26 / 07.06.02
Tut, tut, Haus. I'm sure drzener meant that many teenagers engage in sex without due care at an early age. And that one of the indicators of this might be a taste for clothes that ape the sexually provocative clothes of their elders.
 
 
alas
13:37 / 07.06.02
an excerpt from an interview with toni morrison, in TIME mag, fyi [http://www.time.com/time/community/pulitzerinterview.html]
Q. This leads to the problem of the depressingly large number of single-parent
households and the crisis in unwed teenage pregnancies. Do you see a way
out of that set of worsening circumstances and statistics?

A. Well, neither of those things seems to me a debility. I don't think a female
running a house is a problem, a broken family. It's perceived as one because of
the notion that a head is a man.

Two parents can't raise a child any more than one. You need a whole
community -- everybody -- to raise a child. The notion that the head is the one
who brings in the most money is a patriarchal notion, that a woman -- and I
have raised two children, alone -- is somehow lesser than a male head. Or that
I am incomplete without the male. This is not true. And the little nuclear family
is a paradigm that just doesn't work. It doesn't work for white people or for
black people. Why we are hanging onto it, I don't know. It isolates people into
little units -- people need a larger unit.

Q. And teenage pregnancies?

A. Everybody's grandmother was a teenager when they got pregnant. Whether
they were 15 or 16, they ran a house, a farm, they went to work, they raised
their children.

Q. But everybody's grandmother didn't have the potential for living a different
kind of life. These teenagers -- 16, 15 -- haven't had time to find out if they
have special abilities, talents. They're babies having babies.

A. The child's not going to hurt them. Of course, it is absolutely time
consuming. But who cares about the schedule? What is this business that you
have to finish school at 18? They're not babies. We have decided that puberty
extends to what -- 30? When do people stop being kids? The body is ready to
have babies, that's why they are in a passion to do it. Nature wants it done
then, when the body can handle it, not after 40, when the income can handle it.

Q. You don't feel that these girls will never know whether they could have been
teachers, or whatever?

A. They can be teachers. They can be brain surgeons. We have to help them
become brain surgeons. That's my job. I want to take them all in my arms and
say, ''Your baby is beautiful and so are you and, honey, you can do it. And
when you want to be a brain surgeon, call me -- I will take care of your baby.''
That's the attitude you have to have about human life. But we don't want to pay
for it.

I don't think anybody cares about unwed mothers unless they're black -- or
poor. The question is not morality, the question is money. That's what we're
upset about. We don't care whether they have babies or not.

Q. How do you break the cycle of poverty? You can't just hand out money.

A. Why not? Everybody gets everything handed to them. The rich get it handed
-- they inherit it. I don't mean just inheritance of money. I mean what people
take for granted among the middle and upper classes, which is nepotism, the
old-boy network. That's shared bounty of class.
 
 
drzener
13:42 / 07.06.02
That is what I meant. There are other factors as well like the fact that I think Catholic schools don't exactly take a serious interest in teaching about birth control and the fact that kids are starting to drink and do drugs at an earlier age as well.
I can see what this town will be like in 10 years and it's not pretty.
For the record the Jon Benet Ramsay case was horrific.
 
 
grant
13:56 / 07.06.02
Little girl beauty pageants are pretty horrific.





Now if only I could find those parent-sponsored sites with pix of 12 year olds in bikinis. I know I posted them before....
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:59 / 07.06.02
ms morrison brings up some good points, and to an extent I agree with her

however, I know from experience how having a kid at a young age can limit you. in an ideal world, your community and family would support you emotionally and physically, while you made your way, from birth to death. but that doesnt happen, we are generally all fairly isolated, many of us complete strangers to our very own neighbors.

a teenaged mom (or dad, lets be fair) can go to school and work and raise her kid, sure. but only if theres a support network behind her. lacking a formal education, the availability of good paying jobs is quite limited, and it costs a hell of a lot of money to place your children in a daycare. if you dont have a mom or uncle or neighbor you trust to help with the child while you are working or going to school, then you simply do not go.

my mother was 16 when she had me, I was 20 when I had my daughter. we are both quite happy, but as for myself, I wish Id gotten a better education, I wish Id have traveled, I wish a thousand things that I cant change. but what I can wish for, that I may very well get, is for my daughter to do better. having a child doesnt make those things impossible, just infinitely more difficult, and we all want the easiest, best route for our children

and thats what it boils down to. missing out on the unique opportunites you are presented when you are young, and free of adult responsibilities, in favor of rushing headlong into something you cannot take back.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:12 / 07.06.02
Tut, tut, Haus. I'm sure drzener meant that many teenagers engage in sex without due care at an early age. And that one of the indicators of this might be a taste for clothes that ape the sexually provocative clothes of their elders.

Because dressed like that they are clearly gagging for it.

I'm very cautious of the idea that ephebes wearing clothes that older people find sexually provocative are necessarily sexually active. I would certainly agree that unfair pressure is placed on children to be sexually active, and a pitiful level of sex education is provided, but to say that "dressing sexy" is a manifestation of being sexually a) active and b) irresponsible.

And what's with "ape the sexually provocative clothes of their elders"? Could our hypothetical Lolita not turn around and say "I'm not wearing this to look sexually available or sexually provocative. I'm wearing it because I *like* it. It isn't for you, it's for me." At which point, unless we are arguing that grown-ups should also not be allowed to dress provocatively in the street because it makes them look slutty and will lead to them having irresponsible sex, do we have to claim that these children are not competent to decide what they want to wear?

I think we have too many shortcuts here.
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:12 / 07.06.02
er, that said - I think theres a fine line between keeping your children safe and stifling their burgeoning sexuality. parents seeking to protect their children need to be very cautious about the possibility of creating sexual shame and embarrassment in the process, which is what I personally believe can only lead to the sort of sexual issues you are trying to prevent. ignorance is not the same as prevention
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:13 / 07.06.02
(oops. my above comment was meant to follow my own, rather than haus')
 
 
Ierne
14:43 / 07.06.02
From the excerpted interview with Toni Morrison:

Q. But everybody's grandmother didn't have the potential for living a different
kind of life. These teenagers -- 16, 15 -- haven't had time to find out if they
have special abilities, talents. They're babies having babies.

A. The child's not going to hurt them. Of course, it is absolutely time
consuming. But who cares about the schedule?...The body is ready to
have babies, that's why they are in a passion to do it. Nature wants it done
then, when the body can handle it, not after 40, when the income can handle it.


It completely astounds me that Ms. Morrison has not considered the fact that, if women are allowed the chance to experience more of what life has to offer – education, travel, money, diverse interpersonal relationships – before having a child, those experiences will enhance women's relationships with their children and, by extension, how children relate with the world.

I shall have to read the entire interview to see if Ms Morrison actually has concrete ideas for helping teenage girls achieve their educational/life goals while they're pumping out babies, or if she's just talking out of her ass.

I won't even touch the nebulous concept of "Nature" that she invokes – a subject for another thread, perhaps.
 
 
cusm
16:56 / 07.06.02
"I'm not wearing this to look sexually available or sexually provocative. I'm wearing it because I *like* it. It isn't for you, it's for me."

If the hypothetical Lolita in question has the self awareness and personal brass to say that when the target of a sexual advance, then she has the maturity to wear it. Chances are though, the sexual advance her dress invites will be one she is unprepared to deal with. And that is the real problem, being put in to a situation you are unable to deal with because of the unfortunate case that your dress attracted it by advertising something you were not prepared to handle.
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:27 / 07.06.02
another thing I want to add: as a pubescent girl you certainly dont need to dress provocatively in order to attract (unwanted/wanted) sexual attention, whether youve developed outwardly and obviously or not. predators really dont seem to need much encouragment
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:31 / 07.06.02
Haven't we had this conversation before, Haus? I'll second cusm's remarks about exercising choice and maturity.

I mostly wanted to defend drzener, who I thought you dismissed rather rapidly. But I thought my comments were measured and in no way suggested that I think young girls in miniskirts are gagging for it - only a very unkind reading would produce that impression.

Are you saying that the young do not take cues from older siblings/role models to dress in certain ways? Are you saying that mode of dress in the young provides no indication whatsoever about possible sexual experimentation?

Of course not. You are asking us to be careful about adopting assumptions which are founded on rather dubious ground and would subvert our intentions, good as they may be. The ever vigilant watchman, Haus?

It is a sad fact that sex education is poor, use of contraception is patchy and, for young girls, there is pressure to dress "sexily". This last aspect is probably most difficult to condemn, as Haus points out, but it is not completely unreasonable to wonder...
 
 
bitchiekittie
19:58 / 07.06.02
I wonder if part of the concern about little girls dressing provocatively is that it may seem to be an outward sign that could be indicative of an unhealthy body image. no one wants kids to start out striving to fit into smaller, tighter sizes, etc, as adults do. do you have any idea how many women I know on diets? who "eat" liquid breakfasts and lunches, skip meals and "make up" for "cheating"? that stuff doesnt start when you hit 30

then, on the other hand, theres the nasty vision of how women "should" behave - chaste and modest. people pawn those sorts of ideas on kids, too
 
 
Turk
02:10 / 08.06.02
"I'm not wearing this to look sexually available or sexually provocative. I'm wearing it because I *like* it. It isn't for you, it's for me."

Possibly you need to question why they like to dress that way. I come to this subject not knowing a great deal about it but somehow certain questions linger in my mind. Did young girls in times gone past enjoy dressing provocatively or was about showing signs of maturity? Do today's girls like those clothes because it expresses sexuality, and if so is this because the ever the greater adult obsession with sex (or percievably greater through the media) suggests to them sexuality is maturity - maturity being their actual aim dressing that way? Does that possible sexuality is maturity link manifest itself in other forms of 'underage' sexual activity?
Could it be that (apart from the obvious Jon-Benet crowd) in our own irresponsible adult quest for sexual liberation/gratification that we are unintentionally sexualising our children before they are ready, rather than it being them sexually maturing at an earlier age? If so, aren't we all shits?

I've got lots more questions too, I must be totally clueless!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:42 / 08.06.02
ok then - what about the age of consent? it is currently 16 in the uk, slightly lower, i think, in some other european countries. peter tatchell has argued for it to be lowered for all to about 14 - i've heard it said that he is playing into the hands of those who would love to write off all gay men as paedophiles. pat califia has written about man/boy love, how children are sexual from a very young age and should be able to have relationships should they wish.

i personally think an age of consent has to be *somewhere*. is 16 right? certainly, in this country - at least until we sort out the embarrassed mess that is sex education.
 
 
grant
05:45 / 08.06.02
In America, if I'm doing the math right, it seems like some states allow you to marry at ages below the statutory rape limit.
I think in Florida you can marry at 14... with a note from your parents.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
07:48 / 08.06.02
Is there seriously a problem with girls 12-14 dressing provocatively? In some ways the idea that it IS a problem reminds me of the "Girls Gone Wild! My Daughter Dresses Too Sexy!" topics of Ricki Lake et. al.

I remember the sheer joy I felt at being "grown-up" and wearing sexy clothes at around 14. Looking back, I think some of that joy came from feeling my own sexuality and being able to wield it (express it) via the clothes I could wear. I wonder if that is part of the provocative dressing.

Certainly, for girls that age anyway, part of the dress is to identify with (or outside of) a peer group, probably more than it is to attract boys (though certainly that's part of it as well).

I don't think a young girl who wants to wear a halter top is going to miss out on the wonders of youth because she's wearing a halter top - rather I think the two go hand in hand.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:41 / 08.06.02
I think there is a concern that biologically children are maturing sexually more quickly, that adults are on occasion treating children as objects to sexualise (pre-teen beauty pageants and the like) which may, in the process, be detrimental to those children. And that an increasing emphasis on the sexuality of teenagers is encouraging children to behave in ways they're not prepared for. Having said that, there is a lot of hysteria that seems to imply that a twelve year old wearing mascara is one step from having a pimp.
 
 
alas
14:56 / 09.06.02
Back to my last addition to the topic, and Ierne's response, I can see your perspective, Ierne, but I _think_ Morrison is coming at it from a slightly different direction: my gut says that she's being intentionally a little flip with this reporter's careful, middle-class platitudes about teenaged motherhood, in order to try get us to stop seeing teenaged pregnancy as ONLY and INEVITABLY a disaster, and the girl who gives birth at a young age as 1) inherently incapable, probably downright harmful as a mother, and 2) used up, useless goods, inevitable "drain" on society. I sense that she sees something akin to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line there.

I also see her response as coming out of a long tradition in the US of an institutionalized view of female-headed, black families as being "pathological." I think she's just trying to say: look, part of the reason we see teenaged parenting as such a horrible thing is because the economics of parenting for women has been determined on the basis of a career cycle defined by Western, capitalist, masculine assumptions. You get "established" financially first and then have children. So meanwhile we have 40 year old women desperate to have the child, jumping off the corrporate ladder . . .

There's a mess out there, and teenage sexuality is a very easy target for dealing with our anxieties and "impotence" (heh) in the face of this messed up system. Bodies come of age. At a fairly young age, increasingly. So, fine, I certainly agree that 12 year old girls should not be having heterosexual intercourse, for health reasons. And yes by all means lets give young women access to fabulous educations, to realistic, imaginative visions of themselves in any number of adult lives, livelihoods. But adults need to confront our own sense of grief at the passing of youth more directly rather than using young persons as sex toys. Communal sexual education and physicality--coming-of-age rites that involve adults and children in loving relationships that are carefully worked out in community, not in the head of the adult... that's the direction I see as more valid.

But I've been thinking about how much the normative heterosexist, couple-based family is based on capitalistic structures--the way housing, for example, is architecturally and economically structured on a single-family model--so that I more and more think these questions of sexuality are tied completely with the capitalistic system. That's why I find that Morrison text so interesting, because it does end on the challenge: why can't we just give people money?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:39 / 09.06.02
Two things on the Toni Morrison interview, I haven't had a chance yet to go read the entire thing, but unless there's leading questions that aren't quoted, how does she get from teenage pregancies to some sort of attack on feminism? She appears to deliberately misunderstand the question, the points she makes are valid, but aren't really dealing what what is asked. Single-parent families and teenage pregancies aren't seen as a problem because there isn't a man involved.

And the other thing, if she can find me figures for all the girls who have had babies in their teenage years then gone on successfully to become brain surgeons, from a working class background where they couldn't afford a nanny to look after the kid full-time, I'd be interested.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
19:28 / 09.06.02
lada - that point occurred to me to be somewhat thatcherist. 'it's not that you don't have a hope in hell of ever having the opportunity to do whatever, you're just not working hard enough'.
 
 
Ierne
13:11 / 10.06.02
Hey alas, thanks for responding. I did print out the entire article and read it, so I do agree with you concerning how Morrison is dealing with the reporter and (by extension) the demographic market of the publication that the reporter is writing for. And I love the third paragraph of your post:

There's a mess out there, and teenage sexuality is a very easy target for dealing with our anxieties and "impotence" (heh) in the face of this messed up system. Bodies come of age. At a fairly young age, increasingly. So, fine, I certainly agree that 12 year old girls should not be having heterosexual intercourse, for health reasons. And yes by all means lets give young women access to fabulous educations, to realistic, imaginative visions of themselves in any number of adult lives, livelihoods. But adults need to confront our own sense of grief at the passing of youth more directly rather than using young persons as sex toys. Communal sexual education and physicality--coming-of-age rites that involve adults and children in loving relationships that are carefully worked out in community, not in the head of the adult... that's the direction I see as more valid.

I'm not sure if that's the direction Morrison was heading in, though. Her attitude seems to be that women were put on this planet to have babies; everything else, while perhaps important, is secondary. So let's make it easier to have more babies, and for women to have babies younger, by minimizing the stigma of teenage motherhood.

She's not even dealing with the fact that teenage mothers are considered burdensome because they don't have the life experience to raise a child to adulthood, and they rarely have the job skills to financially support a child. SOMEONE ELSE (parent, grandparent, other relative or in-law) has to take on the responsibility of raising that child while the mother finishes school or drops out of school to start working. If the mother can't find work SOMEONE has to financially support the child and mother. As distasteful as the stigma of teenage motherhood as a societal drain is, It does have some sort of basis in day-to-day reality.

I guess the concept of "community" childrearing is being put out as a possible solution – but how viable is it really? How do you foster a sense of community in an environment where you don't even trust your neighbors? How succesful have past communes been in raising children or dealing with teenage pregnancy – have there been any studies on this?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:26 / 10.06.02
''Your baby is beautiful and so are you and, honey, you can do it. And
when you want to be a brain surgeon, call me -- I will take care of your baby.'' That's the attitude you have to have about human life. But we don't want to pay for it."

morrisson appears to be overlooking the fact that there's more than a financial price to pay for reproduction - that is, this planet is over populated. this is somewhat off topic, but the sooner we get to grips with the fact that the more breeding we do, the more room we take up, the more of the planet's finite resources we use, the more other animals become extinct because of us getting to and using those resources etc, the better.

perhaps it does worry me that sexually aware younger people don't get enough information, as much as the 'end of childhood' thing. i only enjoyed a tiny part of my own childhood, but i went into grownupland through politics rather than sex.
 
 
Rage
13:55 / 10.06.02
It's cool to dress like a slut when you're 11-16. Seriously. All your friends are doing it. You get to feel rilly mature. Then one day you get raped and things start to change a little bit.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:09 / 10.06.02
I'm sorry - I'm stunned by that comment. I'm completely stunned. And horrified. I can't tell whether it's a joke or not - so I'm going to assume it isn't. I don't even really know where to start - the assumption that dressing in a sexualised fashion makes you a 'slut'. The implication that people who dress sexually will get raped is scandalous scaremongering even if on very rare occasions you might be able to make some vague kind of case around that. And there's even some kind of world-weary edge that maybe they'll then grow up and stop being so foolish and obscene with their bodies. I don't know whether or not you've had an experience like this or not either and frankly, to a certain extent I'm not interested in knowing either.

Encourage people to be careful by all means, fight for a world where women don't feel vulnerable and where children are allowed to dress as they wish, even make a statement about whether or not it is appropriate for girls to dress sexually at a certain age - but don't stand back and revel in your cynicism (or even your pain) - you almost sound like you're getting some kind of kick from the idea of other people learning their mistakes through rape...
 
 
Rage
17:30 / 10.06.02
Guess I should have been more clear.

When you're 11-16, it's fashionable to wear thin ass tank tops and hoochie shorts. While this isn't being a slut, it's dressing like one.

The rape comment was just a "harsh reality smacks fashionable middle schooler in the face" thing. Not all girls that dress in this "fashionable" way get raped, of course, but those who do may rethink their wardrobe.
 
 
Ierne
17:31 / 10.06.02
I'm sorry - I'm stunned by that comment. I'm completely stunned. And horrified. I can't tell whether it's a joke or not - so I'm going to assume it isn't. – Tom

Did it occur to you that Rage is just indulging in threadrot to piss people off? As per usual? It's easier for her than actually having to THINK about the subject and formulate a response.

I'm getting really tired of people posting to this board who either can't or won't think before they post. It's one thing in the Conversation, but here in the Head Shop it's really fucking irritating.
 
 
Rage
17:41 / 10.06.02
Actually, I was doing nothing of that sort. Again, I really think that you should chill.
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:49 / 10.06.02
I really despise the whole notion of "slut". its a word that puts across the idea that everyone is expected follow certain standards of sexual behavior, women in particular (Ive rarely heard this term hurled at men, while people throw it at women at the drop of an innuendo), and it holds us all back. its a tool used to set other peoples sexual values and practices, and I think its harmful to buy into the archaic ideals behind such words. its actively furthering sexual shame, and none of us need that added burden
 
 
Persephone
18:26 / 10.06.02
But I think I see what Rage means. Kids learn through play, right? Even things that aren't play, they learn through play --e.g., guns and so forth. Every once in a while, play twists in your very hands and becomes not-play. *Too* many horrible stories of kids playing with guns and shooting their little friends dead. I'm not making a judgment here. It's just that what Rage said, and as bluntly as she said it, that's a real thing that I've seen.
 
  

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