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Heterosexual Intercourse is Gay

 
  

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w1rebaby
09:48 / 07.06.02
As long as you know what you're saying, what it means and why you're saying it, I don't think you need to restrict yourself. Well, except in terms of being needlessly offensive to people. Or maybe setting a bad example. Even if you consider you can say "nigger" in a non-racist and liberated way without subscribing to negative stereotypes etc etc, it is not generally used in that way and you're identifying yourself to many as a racist, including other racists, no matter how "ironic" you think you are.

A lot of the borderline cases depend on how much potential offense and reputation you're willing to risk, which is a function of context but is always going to be slightly random. Using the term "motherfucker", you're always risking being around someone who had been sexually abused by their mother for instance.

I swear like a bastard myself.
 
 
Margin Walker
09:51 / 07.06.02
Another thing to consider are words that are, in their defined sense, are perfectly acceptable, but one wouldn't probably use because the listener might misinterpret them. Right now, the only one I can come up with is niggardly (which means stingy or cheap), but I'm sure there are others....
 
 
Chubby P
10:11 / 07.06.02
Okay. I haven't read the entire thread so I may be repeating what has been said before so bear with me. I'm going to admit something bad so be gentle. When I was a kid we all used to bandy around the term 'Gay' meaning 'Bad'. This is going back about 8 years now. Its not a new thing at all. It was very common in my school. We very rarely linked the word in our heads with homosexuality and only did so when we thought there may be someone around that would take offense (so I suppose on some sub concious level we were aware of the offense it could cause). I then went to Uni and decided before I even got there to stop using the phrase. I didn't want to be in a situation where I was meeting a new person for the first time and start bandying around the term 'Gay meaning bad' when my potential friend could be truly Gay. Didn't want fellow students first impression of me to be of a homophobic ignorant prick. Especially since I had no problem with the Gay life style and now have a couple of friends who are Gay. So I don't use it anymore, feel bad about using it in the past, and try to lead by example. I never even made the 'lame / cripple' connection until I read this thread. Guess i just don't think about these things. I also used to use the word 'Munter' to describe an Ugly person until I read the dictionary definition which was 'Ugly black woman'. No way do I use that phrase anymore. I'm still very un PC. My girlfriends very PC and I've recently been told off for saying 'Third World' (Its 'Two Thirds World') and 'Native Americans' (they're 'Indiginous Peoples'). I'm always putting my foot in it (usually through thoughtlessness) and I'm sure these kids playing Counter Strike are just the same. They don't mean any harm they're just thoughtless.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:29 / 07.06.02
perfectly acceptable, but one wouldn't probably use because the listener might misinterpret them

I'm told the word "blackballed" has perfectly innocent origins, but you'd be a bit foolhardy to use it in a lot of company.
 
 
alas
13:42 / 07.06.02
gosh, you mean white male heterosexuals may actually have to pay attention to what they say, the words they choose?
that's horrible! somebody stop this insanity!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 07.06.02
Ze's right, you know. That would be Political Correctness Gone Bad.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:57 / 07.06.02
"When Liberals Attack"
 
 
gridley
14:04 / 07.06.02
don't be silly, Alas. White male heterosexuals can continue to do and say whatever they want for at least the next hundred years...
 
 
Ganesh
19:39 / 08.06.02
I remember 'gay' being used as a term of abuse in late primary and early secondary school - but I disagree with the assertion that it was divorced from associations of homosexuality. On the contrary, it was used specifically to target those boys whose appearance and behaviour was judged to be effeminate, girly or 'poofy' enough to invite ridicule. As I recall, it was a particular favourite of PE teachers...

It's perhaps worth mentioning that the word 'gay' differs from most of the analogies offered ('motherfucker', 'bastard', 'lame') in that it's commonly used by the stigmatised group (ie. homosexual people) as a neutral descriptive term. If I make the decision to 'out' myself in mixed company - and particularly when I can't be sure I'm not inviting a potentially hostile response - I'll typically refer to myself as gay (rather than 'queer', or 'a poof' or 'a faggot' or whatever, all of which I tend to reserve for younger, more sympathetic audiences, or those rare occasions when I want to shock). As a homosexual man, I have a relatively small pool of 'neutral' words with which to describe myself (lesbians, at least, have a reasonably neutral noun; I can't think of a male equivalent) and I resent the fact that 'gay' is apparently subject to denigration.

The term 'political correctness' itself has been similarly denigrated, and it's important to emphasise that its linguistic aspect serves a particular purpose. It's all very well to claim that you have plenty of gay/black/psychiatrically disordered friends and they have no problems when you say 'poof'/'nigger'/'schizo' - but stigmatised sub-groups, having a generally low sense of a) entitlement and b) self-esteem, are often reluctant to invite disharmony by arguing the toss. Bernard Manning argues that 'Pakis' regularly attend his shows and are frequently in hysterics at the rib-tickling sophistry of his humour - but in that setting you would be, wouldn't you? Basic self-preservation...

Whether or not one believes one's present company is likely to be offended, taking even a modicum of care to avoid potentially offensive language serves to create an environment in which frequently-stigmatised subgroups feel freer and more able to express themselves more honestly. If I've just met you and you use the word 'poof' or dismiss something as 'totally gay', I'm highly unlikely to reveal my own sexuality - or anything else about me - to you.
 
 
Ganesh
15:12 / 09.06.02
And in a synchronous moment, I'm suddenly surrounded by half a dozen early twentysomething black guys communally chat-surfing - who're merrily bantering among themselves about this, that and the other being 'gay'. It's irritating the hell out of me but hey, what am I gonna do about it?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
16:12 / 09.06.02
start talking about how negroid something is?
 
 
w1rebaby
20:21 / 09.06.02
I remember 'gay' being used as a term of abuse in late primary and early secondary school - but I disagree with the assertion that it was divorced from associations of homosexuality.

I remember that as well, and you're right, it was definitely homophobic, but I think the usage is different now to be honest.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
20:28 / 09.06.02
yeah but it's still using 'gay' in a negative way. and kids need to be taught that it's as wrong and disrespectful as using other discriminatory language.
 
 
Ganesh
20:35 / 09.06.02
Fridgemagnet, I think it's used differently by different groups. The young guys around me in the Internet cafe were generally using it to mean 'pathetic' or 'wet'. Whatever the intention, as SFD says, it represents the negative spinning of a previously (fairly) neutral term - and in that particular situation, it made me incredibly aware of how I presented myself, whether they could read what I was surfing (stuff on the London Mardi Gras), etc., etc. I felt the old pressure to 'act straight' around them. There's no way I'd feel comfortable enough to out myself to anyone who used 'gay' in that manner.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:31 / 09.06.02
Well, while it's still a relatively new term, it might be possible to challenge it.

What I meant was, when I was at school, saying someone was gay meant they were homosexual and thus bad, whereas now it's not necessarily an indication of homosexuality, it's short-cut that, straight to "lame". People who use the term are thus less direct homophobes than unthinkingly using a common term - like calling someone "pikey".

I've heard people saying "don't be such a jew" when accusing someone of being tight. I don't think the "jews = money-grabbing bastards" association was there, it was just a figure of speech to them that they hadn't bothered to think through. If you challenge them on it they would look very surprised, as if surely everyone said that.

This is not to defend the use. Like you say, it creates a hostile atmosphere and adds negative connotations to legitimate uses of the word. People need to be a bit more aware of what it is they're saying.
 
 
RadJose
23:21 / 09.06.02
suprised that fridgemagnent dinna say it, cuz they came so close...
while growing up for me GAY = HAPPY!
lauguage is growing, changing, evolving
gay once ment happy, then homosexual, now stupid... i don't know, that's just how i see it, me and my friends also say the word queer still as it was used back when we where kids to mean "odd and weird" and we've gotten mean stares when we say "dude, you'r so queer!"... we're possibly the friendlist bunch of people, but some i guess would call us homophobic, whatever i guess, you can't please everyone
 
 
Ganesh
09:10 / 10.06.02
How old are you, Radjose? I thought the 'gay = happy' usage withered at least thirty years ago...
 
 
w1rebaby
09:17 / 10.06.02
(paraphrases from memory...) "This modern use of the word is appalling. I remember a day when you could talk about having a gay time, meeting some gay people, going to a gay party and having gay sex without anyone thinking you were homosexual."
 
 
Ganesh
17:45 / 10.06.02
I can't recall that usage since the Flintstones promised us a "gay old time"...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:04 / 10.06.02
I grew up knowing the word "buggered" only as a synonym for broken or kaput. In later life I discovered I must have grown up in a very foul-mouthed home as "bugger" was a nasty swear word which described a forbidden sexual act.

Had done ever since the charming Bogomil heretics of Bulgaria of the 10th-12th centuries who, because they considered it sinful to drag any more sparks of the one light into limiting and limited human incarnations, advocated either total chastity, or else sex that would not lead to conception. Buggery is the path to God - who knew?

And Radjose: for me GAY = HAPPY!
lauguage is growing, changing, evolving


Language is ever in flux and the word gay, even the best dictionaries will tell you, hasn't always meant just "Happy".

A lot of the initial popularity of "gay" with the Gay Liberation Front and such in the 60's derived from the belief that it was an acronym for Good As You. Gay was a synonym for homosexual at least as far back as the 1930's amongst gay women and men. Cary Grant even snuck it onto the big screen in 1938, in "Bringing Up Baby" when, asked why he is wearing women's clothing replies, "Because I just went gay all of a sudden."

The Oxford English Dictionary cites gaycat or geycat as a homosexual boy (Underworld & Prison Slang by N. Ersine, 1935)

In Victorian times, gay was commonly used colloquially to mean promiscuous. A gay house meant a brothel.

Webster's Dictionary gives the meanings as
1. Happy
2. Brilliant in colors; splendid; fine; richly dressed.
3. Loose; dissipated; lewd. [Colloq.]

No mention of dressing like a penis, mind. I know lots of bigoted people who are knobends though.
 
 
Ganesh
18:09 / 10.06.02
[threadrot] Have I told you lately that I love you? [/threadrot]
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:19 / 10.06.02
Forgot myself towards the end of that post and thought I'd beamed over to Kegboy's "Why is Pride so Gay?" thread - please ignore the "No mention of dressing like a penis, mind" bit.

Wanna come resurrect the Bogomil sect with me, Big G?
 
 
RadJose
18:28 / 10.06.02
ZoCher, thank you, i feel like i've learned something! wow, that's cool (i know this could be read as sarcasm but i'm completely sinsear)... and i'm only 24, and it may be a small town midwestern america think but up until abou Jr High, my classmates and i DID use the word gay to mean happy, and to pad out our papers that had to be X number of words long...
 
 
w1rebaby
18:41 / 10.06.02
Is it urban myth that the GAP originally stood for "Gay And Proud"?
 
  

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