Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Heterosexual Intercourse is Gay

Page: (1)2

21:47 / 04.06.02

Now I'm a bit too old to learn school slang but as I play online games, especially counterstrike, pretty often I can't help but be confronted by it. One of the more ridiculous, and frankly offensive, insults is the use of the word "gay" as being synonymous with "bad, inadequate, deficient, stupid".

Am I wrong in thinking that this stems directly from homophobia? Kids seem to pick this up thoughtlessly with no real gay bashing agenda. When I do play these games I notice that it is common practice to insult another player by describing them as homosexual, often in detail. But, strangely, I often get the feeling that there is no real understanding of what is being said and it stems as much from insecurity and peer pressure as anything else. Its sad.

My AK-47 is gay? Yes. A tub of vaseline and we can become very closely acquainted. Give me a break.

22:10 / 04.06.02

i think it's homophobia yes. also, as far i understand it's usage, they're substituting the word 'shit' for 'gay' which is like slang doubled or something.

00:32 / 05.06.02

This is in no way any sort of justification, but they're kids (note the missing "just" or "only" or "mere"). They're young, ignorant & do lots of callow things. Shit, my brother is 20 and he mails letters without a stamp & expects the post office to deliver the damn thing. Now that's some ignorant shit. What I want to know is where you've been, Lurid. Not to deride the topic, but this is hardly a news flash. Boys insulting boys to be hurtful? *gasp!* As for the why of it, I'm sure others here can put it in better terms but the succint answer is that in most hetero male's mind, Gay = Submisive/A Punk/Tha Bitch. So ther ya are....

00:46 / 05.06.02

My brother-in-law works in a school and tries to get the kids to think about what they say, including when they use the term 'gay' as a derisive adjective. There's apparently been some improvement. It's one of my personal pet peeves on two levels: 1. Homophobia pisses me off, (yeah, I know, very intelligent argument) and 2. The kids who use it generally say it when they can't think of an adjective that's actually appropriate. It's one of those things for which I'll snap at someone.

I can understand how it caught on- I hate the phrase 'my bad' with a passion, yet it still occasionally slips out of my mouth, but I deeply wish that someone would hit me every time I say it.

06:23 / 05.06.02

my ex is a headteacher in a primary school. when we were together she spent a fair amount of time countering this homophobic shit - cos that's what it is. anything that's weak, useless, broken or a person you don't like is 'gay'. it doesn't even make sense - a child doesn't like history so history's 'gay' etc - but of course if it's not dealt with, if teachers and parents don't stop kids saying this stuff then it's deemed to be true and acceptable. which has lovely repercussions for queers later in life. not to mention gay kids, because it must do wonders for their self-esteem.

my (38 year old) brother comes out with similar stuff. by an amazing coincidence, i haven't seen him in over a year and i have no idea when - or if - i'll see him again.

07:34 / 05.06.02

What I want to know is where you've been, Lurid. Not to deride the topic, but this is hardly a news flash. - Margin Walker

In a sense you are right, man. I'm being an outraged pinko leftie. But...

This does seem different in the sense that it is a usage of language that is unconsciously embedded in some. As sfd says, the actual way the word "gay" is used would be in situations where I would use the word "crap". The object of derision can be inanimate or abstract and so goes beyond a personal insult. The "my gun is gay" comment is often heard on counterstrike, as are "this game is gay", "waiting is gay", "this map is gay" etc.

Its not just kids being hurtful to each other - its the subversion of a word.

07:45 / 05.06.02

and it appears to be a relatively recent thing (in england anyway) for the term to be used *all the time*.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:13 / 05.06.02

I'm sorta hoping it will slide into meaning something good, the way expletives sometimes do. Might happen. God knows, when I wus a wee bairn, it still sorta meant 'light-hearted'.

10:51 / 05.06.02

I think the word in this context has become so incredibly widely applied that it's almost lost all connection to homosexuality. It's pretty much equivalent to "lame". This car is gay. Britney Spears is gay. That party was gay. Your shoes are gay. It doesn't even mean "effeminate" - Fred Durst is definitely gay, but he's not gay.

I'd say it was less offensive than calling someone a cunt, which people do all the time.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:58 / 05.06.02

Just to clarify: Heterosexual Intercourse is not in fact gay. It is, however, in most cases totally weak.

Jack The Bodiless

11:00 / 05.06.02

Yes. It has lost ALL connection to homosexuality. Already. Yes.

And no one yet has actually delivered a sufficient explanation to me as to why being called a 'cunt' is any more nasty than being called a 'twat'.

The gay thing - it's sophomoric humour. For people with a tiny vocabulary. Coming from an equation of 'gay' with 'bad'. So yes, it's homophobic, and yes, it's a diachronic perversion of the language. It's also moving over here - UK exposure to US 'culture' through TV and the net means that we're assimilating Yank modes far faster these days.

Jack The Bodiless

11:01 / 05.06.02

'Lame' = 'bad'. Offensive to cripples?! Discuss...

11:21 / 05.06.02

ah, i've come across this before! seems to me that a lot of language is pretty horrendous.... i don't use the term 'lame' myself, because of the implications. i found out the other day that 'nitty gritty' refers to the 'mess' left at the bottom of ships filled with slaves. won't be using that term again, either.

12:13 / 05.06.02

Actually, there was some dispute about that whole "nitty gritty" thing...

12:28 / 05.06.02

I was going to start talking in a serious of grunts to avoid offending anyone, but someone told me that it would be offensive to cavemen. I explained to him that the term "cavemen" wasn't on, and he punched me on the nose.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:29 / 05.06.02

This bastard (see- there's one now) of a language of ours is filed with words that no longer have their original literal meaning. Not that that makes it any less offensive if you're on the receiving end, of course. And I really, really, really have to stop saying "Joey" before I say it in front of someone who wasn't 13 at the same time as me, or who is quadraplegic or whatever, and I REALLY hurt someone's feelings. 'Cos "Hey, you know, it's an ironic playground thing" is gonna sound just as fucking stupid a defence as it actually is. The fact that I mean no serious intent behind it may not matter if someone takes that from it.

I mean (to pick a less emotive example) "fucking". "Whoah, man, that's one cool fucking hat!" wouldn't necessarily have to mean the hat was itself fucking, or that it was a hat worn only while fucking.

Or indeed at a temperature somewhat less than warm.

The Natural Way

12:33 / 05.06.02

SFD: But, at least in terms of its original usage, "nitty-gritty" is a completely redundant word. It no longer means "slave poo" or whatever

12:37 / 05.06.02

yeah. a lot of terms are redundant from their original usage... but i think it's good (and interesting) to know where they originated from. then you can choose what you use. i use the word 'bastard', but i mean 'nasty person' rather than 'you were born out of wedlock'. perhaps this is just out of convenience.

12:40 / 05.06.02

I have to say the homophobia of childhood is a lot different than the homophobia of adults. With adults it usually takes the simple form of someone hating or thinking less of someone because they are gay or percieved to be gay.

But I think with kids, it's kind of different, because at the point my friends and I started calling each other gay, none of us knew for sure if we were straight or gay, so someone calling you gay, really meant a lot more. It was less of an insult and more of a neurosis time bomb. Sure, when someone said it, all you did was yell back, "yeah, that's not what your mom says," but later on when you were alone, you were like, "huh, what was I doing that made them call me gay? was it the way I talked or the way I walked? am I gay?"

it also made the presumably straight kid who called you gay feel better, because it publically reinforced his apparent heterosexuality, therefore proving to the world that whether or not his prey was in fact gay, he himself was clearly straight and therefore "normal."

I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I've always felt "gay" was a very complicated term of abuse.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:49 / 05.06.02

Absolutely. (Though not in the literal sense, of course, more in the sense that I agree).

Funnily enough, I meant to post this following titbit of information a while back in the thread about the origins of the phrase "kick ass"...
A black friend of mine (who's also a communist, just in case that makes any difference- this parenthesis was a joke, by the way. Although he IS a communist, for which I respect him) recently called me a "motherfucker" (a word I use all the time), then checked himself, and said "I promised myself I'd never use that word again since I found out what it meant".
To which I obviously replied "someone who fucks their mother? Or your mother?"

Apparently in the old slaving days in the Deep South (of America. I don't think he meant Devon) it was a term used among the slavers for one who raped the female slaves in his... charge? Not sure the correct word there, but one who raped female slaves, anyway. Apparently other slavers would take the piss using this word. Rather than bashing the guy's head off with a brick. (And then of course renouncing their own evil slaving ways... actually, just taking the piss does seem a more likely course of action for these... umm... deeply unpleasant men.)

He hasn't managed to give it up, though. Neither have I, to my eternal shame.

Just occurred to me- was this a well-known fact already, and am I just stupid?

14:27 / 05.06.02

I don't know about that slavery story; while it may have been a term used in that way, incest is such a common taboo everywhere that I imagine "motherfucker" is an insult in any culture, at any time.

Interesting difference between the use of "gay" and the use of "motherfucker" there though. "Gay" is bad because there's actually nothing wrong with being gay, but using the word as abuse implies that there is. If you take "motherfucker" as having that slavery meaning, then there is something wrong with being a motherfucker, though you're not implying that they are - it's "you're as bad as a motherfucker". Why's that bad usage - because it's too casual in use and so dismissive of the original situation?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

16:37 / 05.06.02

I was about 17 or 18 before I learned the homophobic derivation of 'x sucks'.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:55 / 05.06.02

Interestingly enough, although "x sucks" is indeed a fellatio reference, the term "sucker" isn't. If you call someone a sucker, you are implying that ze is an unweened babe rather than a knobhound.

I was everso relieved when I found that out.

17:24 / 05.06.02

Jesus, I think all ye people are overly sensitive, right. My wee brother is gay and also my best friend ever. Neither of them ever get bitching about using the word gay. Mind you, the best friend of mine gives me slagging about being more gay than him even though I am a repressed heterosexual. AT this stage in the game it is feck all about homophobia and more about just boys or girls slagging each other. I think for all the l33t haX0Rs slagging each other and IMHO they are all so repressed that if you think they are being homPh()bi£ than you ar emore phobic than any 16 yO haX0R dood. Seriously, please chill out on this matter. Most of them just mean it in the pure SOuth park sense. If you take this seriously you are giving the 5th reich more power than it deserves. Please chill out Na8i the0&y bbitzxez\
Wicked phat sick massive
(christ I shouldn't go in 2 work pissed)

17:43 / 05.06.02

Jesus, I think all ye people are overly sensitive, right...Seriously, please chill out on this matter...If you take this seriously you are giving the 5th reich more power than it deserves...(christ I shouldn't go in 2 work pissed) – drezner

Oh yes, let's all chill out over this. It's not that important, is it? Who cares if some people are upset enough about unthinking homophobia to start a thread about it? Who gives a shit if associating the word GAY with inferiority is considered offensive? FUCK all these overly sensitive, intellectual, and no doubt elitist people trying to make the rest of us THINK about what we say and why we choose the words we do. They're just GAY anyway.

Have another drink, drezner. I hear it kills brain cells.

18:14 / 05.06.02

Basically, what I am waffling about is the fact that associating the word GAY with homophobia is what I have a problem with. Any of my gay mates don't have a problem with it. In the context of quake players or southpark fans it is not used to mean homosexual at all (any quakers or SP fans that feel otherwise feel free to speak your mind). I don't use the word ever and have been called it more than enough to desensitive myself so maybe I'm the one with the problem ( I don't think so).
Ierne, the day you come up with a drink or drug that kills enough brain cells I'll probably be your bext customer ( suck on the troll bait, I know you love it). I also think about myself probably far too much for my own good.
IMHO real homophobia is never spoken so freely or openly. I think that being excessively sensitive about words just gives real rednecks a chance to flourish. In all fairness if any feckin' cant gave any of my friends (gay or lesbian or whatever) grief about their sexuality I get, really, really pissed off about it and will generally be the first to get into grief about it.
Fuck homophobia but fuck apartheid (or whatever you want to call it [treating people different is not good]) to death, or in the ea, or wherever is the least comfortable.

18:35 / 05.06.02

suck on the troll bait, I know you love it – drezner

No, I don't love it. In fact, I find your comment rather vile and extranneous to the subject. And don't send me any more private messages, please.

18:37 / 05.06.02

Fair enough.
I seriously wasn't trying to wind you up.

19:47 / 05.06.02

"(christ I shouldn't go in 2 work pissed)"

and maybe you shouldn't post on barbelith pissed, either, if your 'arguement' is going to be so full of holes.

read the thread, drzenor.

20:01 / 05.06.02

Maybe I shouldn't but most of the time I just lurk here and i don't do it for the sake of spite or to wait for a moment to have a textual go at someone. I have read the argument and I'm surprised to actually get so much shit for speaking my mind. I'm not putting anyone down but I think that the word gay is not an insult at all. PLease take me out and shoot me now. Or was my mistake in saying I was pissed? I like Barbelith but it can be a bit intimidating and if you look closely most of the posts are made by regulars. I'm just trying to take a bit more of an interest here. If you want to read some homophobia into what I'm saying that doesn't make my intention so. I like gay people. I'm not gay myself but I have never had a problem with anyones sexuality. I have enough problems myself. I was just speaking my mind and I don't see how I could actually manage to offend anyone. We were jsut talking about the word GAY. My point was that if you really make this much of a difference about language used online then I think you are reinforcing the differences between hetero- and homo- sexuals and in my eyes that is a BAD thing.
Peace.
BTW would you rather less people posted here altogether?
I thought that once you weren't a fucking fascist you were free to speak your mind here. Sorry if you read aggression into my comments but there was none intended.
Goodnight

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:48 / 05.06.02

Ierne, sfd: I regard you as true friends. Both of you , in your own ways, have supported me thru shite you probably didn't even know about. And sfd has a tatt on her thumb, which fucking rocks.

drzener: Dude, i know what you mean when you say that in a certain context, saying "x is gay" when you mean it's inferior/boring/broken/whatever is reasonable. You know what you mean

but I have to tell you, it's a bit different on Barbelith. Not 'cause everyone suddenly becomes more sensitive, but because this is one place they don't expect to hear that shit.

The world is not a colour-supplement in a leftwing magazine, where tolerence is the norm. The people here aren't theories, aren't articles. They have to get on a bus and get called racial slurs or sexual slurs, or whatever; and that happens every day. Every. Day. And there are plenty of places on the net where you can use those slurs without let or hindrance, and so you should. So you should! Because there is a free-speech issue here. I subscribe to Voltaire's dictum: "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

But, as I said at the beginning, the world is not a colour-supplement in a leftwing newspaper. And if we fight for the freedom to, then surely it follows as night follows day, that we must fight for the freedom to be free from.

In this case, all people are really asking is: for this one small corner of the net to be free from the assumption that what they are doing is wrong. This is a small thing, is it not?

I have read your posts. You're smart and aware. I don't think that you, drzener, are the kind of man to deny someone that small freedom. You have the freedom to. Be strong enough to allow a few people the freedom from.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:00 / 06.06.02

IMHO real homophobia is never spoken so freely or openly. I think that being excessively sensitive about words just gives real rednecks a chance to flourish. In all fairness if any feckin' cant gave any of my friends (gay or lesbian or whatever) grief about their sexuality I get, really, really pissed off about it and will generally be the first to get into grief about it.

Good to know you stick up for your friends, DrZener. It's an admirable trait, and failure to possess it would be really very black of you.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

11:34 / 06.06.02

fookin christ haus....that was an incredibly anglo comment...

I avoid the word in the usage that has been described above as much as possible, mostly because i try not to inadvertantly offend anyone.

however i use the word fag for a smoke and gay as in happy, is this wrong? words do have many meanings, and if i am laying a game online and say i will be afk to smoke a fag, do ppl assume i am off shooting/having illicit sex with a gay person, or am i smoking?

i have never heard someone say "lets not play this map, its as lame as a cripple homo" so when someone says a map is gay i dont flip out, should i be?

12:23 / 06.06.02

Language affects the way we think and tints our mental picture. I don't think that it is a cage like in some Orwellian nightmare, but its influence is insidious.

For instance, much of my family originates from the south of Italy where the dialect for the word "person" is "cristiano". It seems to me that this equates being a person with having a certain religion. Of course, if you asked anyone they would deny this was the case. Perhaps they would then make a rascist remark just to let you know that they don't take the whole thing very seriously. Is it significant? Yes, I think so. This trivial example is just one way in which the usage of language facilitates certain ideas.

The point of opposing the use of "gay" to mean "bad" is to make those ideas harder. Harder to express in an accepted, unthinking way. Harder to express under the guise of innocence. Harder to insinuate without care or hindrance.

09:10 / 07.06.02

Are there any good slurs/swear words that you can use that aren't, in some way or to someone, offensive? For instance, I'll frequently say 'Bugger'. Now I think about it, I suppose I'm implying that the bad thing that happened that made me say the word is in some way related to sodomy. Which, it might follow, I consider bad as I'm using it as an oath. I suppose there are some, related to shit or whatnot, that aren't particular but nonetheless...

I think the intent behind the use of the word is just as worthy of consideration as the word itself. For instance, the origin of the word motherfucker as used above. If you're using the word seriously to insult someone, I don't think it makes a difference whether it has racist or incestuous or whatever connotations.
You might think that you're the sort of person who wouldn't want to use language that has racist links. But is the 'you fuck your mum' sentiment any better? I will admit, I'm approaching this from the standpoint of someone who wouldn't want to use language with racist under/overtones but when you think about it...

Page: (1)2