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Buffy Season Six, final episode - "Grave"

 
  

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Jack The Bodiless
12:49 / 07.06.02
OK, I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it. Isn't the last thing the demon says "Here's your soul, matey", or words to that effect? Isn't the whole point that we're 'misdirected' into thinking that he wants the chip killed so that he can be a badass again, when all along he wants to be able to be human, so that Buffy gets a boyfriend who'll love her AND treat her right?

And there was no 'thing' where Buffy couldn't be happy with a human boyfriend. That was Riley's own little neurosis... her problem with the Boy Wonder was that she just didn't care for him enough. He was her transitional man after Angel, capice? She liked him, but did not love him, and he'd never be good enough, whether Bucky or Captain America.
 
 
Trijhaos
12:56 / 07.06.02
Yeah, the last thing we see is the demon grabbing Spike saying something along the lines of "As we agreed, we return your soul to you" and we hear Spike screaming, then the credits roll.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:02 / 07.06.02
So that Buffy gets a boyfriend who'll love her AND treat her right?

Which more than makes up for the attempted rape.
 
 
gridley
13:41 / 07.06.02
Heh...

"Hey, sweetie, remember back before you had a soul, when you tried to rape me?"
"Sure, baby. I'm sorry about that. Shall I write you another poem?"
 
 
Trijhaos
13:49 / 07.06.02
Poem? No, no. The soul completely changes that artistic side. Instead of poetry, he will now do interpretive dance.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
14:58 / 07.06.02
Hey, I never said he was smart. Or sane. Just because he has his soul back, isn't necessarily going to make him a nice person, either... Hitler and Dahmer both had souls. Charlie Manson had several.
 
 
Bear
06:49 / 19.09.02
Well I finally get to read what Barbelith thought of season 6, I watched the second boxset on Tuesday night. I think I'll need to let the series sink in a little before I make my mind up about it, at the moment I think it was "ok" - I think once the whole buffy thing is over it'll fit in well "Buffys Dark Days" because you know shit does happen in life and people do make mistakes and of you couldn't really have Xander butting in like Chandler Bing with all the bad shit that was going down - but there will be plenty of time for all that in season 7 Best series ever!!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:00 / 19.09.02
Haven't bothered to buy the box sets for season 6, partly so I can buy the DVDs of the earlier ones, but I'm waiting to see 7 to see if Marti Noxon really does have a cunning plan or whether it's that whatever show she thinks she's directing it ain't BtVS. I'm also hoping that one of the parts of the world that Buffy wants to show Dawn is the belly of a lion, from the inside.

But then, I haven't started the Buffy s.6 thread I want to write, on the grounds that it would be very badly thought out and probably wildly offensive.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:37 / 19.09.02
Does anyone actually like Dawn?
 
 
Mazarine
21:39 / 19.09.02
No.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:46 / 19.09.02
Good.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:18 / 20.09.02
"My sister's come back from the dead and is finding it a tad traumatic. One of my friends has died, her girlfriend went nuts, and Anya and Xander both had lobotomies and now hate each other. Spike seems to have disappeared somewhere too.

And they did it all just to put me out! Waaaaaaah!"
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:59 / 20.09.02
It was the reconcilliation that made the end of season six so sick and wrong. Dawn and Buffy hand in hand with the music and the golden light and it was all Dawn's fault for not dying last season. Buffy would never be so lame if Dawn didn't exist. Bitter, me?
 
 
Rev. Orr
11:53 / 20.09.02
She doesn't exist. She's a left-over plot device from a tedious and under-written arc that required a ret-con of the entire history of the series. She serves no purpose but to hang around waiting for SMG to retire, whining, moping, bitching and making my eyes bleed with her shiny, shiny hair.

Another round of bitter, anyone?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:03 / 03.06.04
I'm just astonished by this thread, really. I can't fathom how one couldn't LOVE Buffy Season Six; it's so VASTLY superior to all of the previous Buffy episodes that I've seen from previous seasons. Up until I started seeing Season 6, I was unconvinced by the whole Buffy thing, but the sequence of events in this season (particularly the final third) made me a believer.

Maybe some of you were just upset to see the tone change, I don't know. Whatever happened, it was for the better. Truly.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:06 / 03.06.04
And I don't get the Dawn hate! I love Dawn. I like her relationships with the rest of the cast.

I seriously don't get you people.
 
 
PatrickMM
22:24 / 03.06.04
I'm with Flux on season six, I think it's by far the best season of the show, and I don't get how people could hate on it so much.

The Spike/Buffy destructive relationship was amazing, and a complete subversion of my expectations. I loved Spike's pure longing for Buffy in season five, and then to see Buffy, the supposed hero, be the one to hurt both of them by giving Spike what he wanted. The sex scene in Smashed was one of the most shocking moments of the entire show for me, I heard that zipper sound effect, and then her mounting him, it was just so surprising, particularly considering it's a network TV show. The sex scenes, particularly in Doublemeat Palace were just so dark, and dirty, the opposite of the arty Buffy/Angel sex in Innocence. I'd love to have seen what they'd have done without the network restrictions, since they went pretty far with them. The rape was obviously very divisive among people, but I can't really fault Spike. Almost every time they got together, it was sort of a dance, as he had to force her to do it. It's tough to defend him, but it's a different sort of attempted rape than the allegorical attempted rape of Willow in The Initiative.

I also love the trio as villains. In previous seasons, and especially in season seven, the main villain is always sort of a copout, bringing everyone together to confront the big threat, and as a result, a lot of the little problems are forgotten about. With the trio, there's really no out, they don't move the plot forward, and everyone is left to just wallow in their own problems. Plus, I love the descent of the three, from obviously comical characters, to the point where Warren is far more threatening than Glory or the Mayor ever were. Theh shooting of Tara was one of, if not the most shocking moment of the entire series, and I actually knew she was going to die at some point. Plus, at that point in both Buffy and Angel, the manichean view of demon bad/human good was being called into question and these three as villains were a big part of that. Now obviously when you actually watch them, all that probably sounds a bit pretentious, but I love them both as comic relief and as villains.

I could go on about season six for a long time, but just one more thing. If the show had ended with The Gift, you think the outcry about the Angel "cliffhanger," was something, virtually nothing was resolved by The Gift, it was basically Buffy saying, "Fuck this" to life, and copping out with suicide. Angel resolved all of the character arcs, and was a fitting finale. At the end of The Gift, the only people who were really finished were Xander/Anya and Dawn. IIRC, Tara was still messed up, Spike's redemption was far from complete. Now, after season six, virtually every character arc was finished, as evidenced by the fact that season seven has almost nowhere to go, with Xander, Anya, Buffy and Giles essentially done, hence the creation of a posse of forgettable new characters. The only thing that makes season seven worth watching is Spike and Andrew, and Willow at the beginning, because they're the characters who still have to make changes, and resolve issues.
 
 
Rev. Orr
23:50 / 03.06.04
The rape was obviously very divisive among people, but I can't really fault Spike.

Erm, it was rape. We can argue about the writers' motivation for its inclusion, whether it was handled well by the production team, if it had any impact other than shock value for the rest of the series (as it got rapidly swept under the carpet and forgotten by series 7) but you're not suggesting that it was somehow okay 'cos "Spikey-poo read the situation wrong"? It's and old argument that's probably best left to rot but I'm inches from mounting a high horse that I'll look pretty damn stupid atop.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:33 / 04.06.04
I don't have a problem with the near-rape in terms of storyline, though I certainly don't feel much sympathy for Spike, and rarely ever do. I think that event was a pretty natural progression of that storyline, and totally in character. It may be extremely dark, but it SHOULD be. Buffy is at its best when it's taking normal human drama and amping it up with extreme metaphors and hyperbole - rape is sadly a part of life, and I don't think it was irresponsible or sensationalistic for the writers to go there on Buffy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:33 / 04.06.04
Hmmm. But to make it largely aconsequential was... One of the interesting things here is that Spike with a soul, once he stops being bonkers, is actually pretty much identical to Spike without a soul - there isn't the Angel/Angelus distinction, possibly because Spike really isn't that complex. And Spike with a soul gets to go back to being Buffy's rod and staff fairly painlessly in the greater scheme of things...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:25 / 04.06.04
What's not to love? Well, after the previous two seasons containing a subplot about exactly why Giles' place is at the Slayer's side helping her he decided to bugger off home. Fair enough, but then she comes back to life, he comes back, sees that Willow is abusing magic, sees that Buffy is near traumatised and nowhere near peak efficiency and that Dawn, lacking any kind of emotional support is slowly sinking into various unhealthy attention seeking devices (and why kleptomania rather than something that would have made sense with her being the Key and the violence of Older Sister's life like cutting?) and he still leaves!

The trio. Because now Marti Noxon is running the show and it's time for us all to see how men are scum and evil. Oh, and while same sex love is affirming and joyous when it's between two women, it's icky and gay if it were two men.

The 'rape'. So dodgy there on many grounds. Compare and contrast with all the other times when Buffy either ignored Spike not wanting to have sex or pretended not to want to make out in order to entice him on. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. And neither do the writers, as it's quickly dealt with next season so Buffy can sleep with Spike again. You can't have it both ways Marti, but hey, at least it gives you an excuse to torture Spike some more huh? Dirty, dirty men!

Loan shark. Get this, he's like, a literal shark!

Killing off Tara. I couldn't care less about the hysterical Kitten reaction to this, but while the main characters proceeded to get more distant from the audience, Tara was the grounded one, the emotional core of the team. I truly would have preferred anyone else dying apart from her. Which probably means that it had to be her or something.

But good things? Once More With Feeling.

Umm...
 
 
PatrickMM
20:31 / 04.06.04
Saying it wasn't Spike's fault might be an exaggeration, but I see nothing amiss in Buffy taking Spike back once he returns from getting the soul. A crucial thing to remember is that Spike's attempted rape was more like a boyfriend coercing his girlfriend into having sex, rather than the more nefarious guy picking a person he doesn't know and just raping her. Spike wasn't aware of the boundaries, and he went too far. He made a mistake, but I don't think it's the kind of thing that would neccessitate the end of their relationship. Particularly considering the fact that he goes through so much to get his soul, and is clearly left in a bad state at the beginning of season seven. If what he went through wasn't enough to make Buffy forgive him for the attempted rape, what is? That said, obviously, it's a grievous offense, and it would have made sense for Buffy to question him about it after season seven. However, I think they show Spike's change when he's able to just lie with Buffy all night, and not be tempted to take advantage of her, in late season seven.

About Spike without soul being the same as Spike with soul, I think it makes perfect plot sense. Spike, particularly in season five, was one of the most noble characters on the show, and was conditioned into having a strong moral center. Season six it slipped a bit, but he was basically a good person by that point, hence when he gets the soul, there's no big change. Angelus never atoned like Spike did, before he got the soul. Hence the major change between Angel and Angelus. I think were Spike to lose his soul again, it wouldn't cause him to behave any differently.

As Angel says in Dopplegangland, a lot of a vampire's personality is determined by who they were before being vamped. Spike was a romantic, essentially good person. Liam was not before he became Angelus, hence, he could never change without getting the soul. And, I think that fact is the reason that Angel remains so tormented, while Spike can put all the bad things he's done behind him.
 
 
PatrickMM
22:01 / 04.06.04
What's not to love? Well, after the previous two seasons containing a subplot about exactly why Giles' place is at the Slayer's side helping her he decided to bugger off home. Fair enough, but then she comes back to life, he comes back, sees that Willow is abusing magic, sees that Buffy is near traumatised and nowhere near peak efficiency and that Dawn, lacking any kind of emotional support is slowly sinking into various unhealthy attention seeking devices (and why kleptomania rather than something that would have made sense with her being the Key and the violence of Older Sister's life like cutting?) and he still leaves!

I think Giles, like everyone else in season six, makes some bad choices.Giles saw Buffy using him as a crutch when dealing with Dawn, and went with the sink or swim approach, where he'd just force her to deal with her own problems, rather than relying on him.

About the Willow magic addiction, I think he saw the seeds of it, but assumed that Willow, and if not Willow, Tara, would be able to keep it under control.

Giles is very much the father figure for all the characters in the show, and I think he felt uncomfortable in that role, as he says in his song in the musical, he feels like if he keeps helping them, they'll never grow. By the end of season six, he realizes that maybe the best way to help them is to be there for everyone rather than just forcing them to make it on their own.

Also, the Buffy/Giles relationship is pretty contentious when he's there in season seven, so if he had been there in six, things might have been worse.

But, it's not like I don't see your point. I think the choice is in character, but it's a bad choice.

The trio. Because now Marti Noxon is running the show and it's time for us all to see how men are scum and evil. Oh, and while same sex love is affirming and joyous when it's between two women, it's icky and gay if it were two men.

I don't think the gay subtext between Andrew and Warren was played up as much in season six as it was in seven, and then, I don't it was a judgment on being a gay male, it's more on that specific relationship.

The Warren character fits your points, but I don't think the trio was designed to show that men are scum. It's more to show that power corrupts, even in humans. They're designed to take advantage of the stereotypical image of the male sci-fi geek. I don't see your points being particularly valid for Jonathan or Andrew.

However, for Warren, yes, it is a bit of a strong chastising for males as a whole. His misogyny seems sort of out of place on the show, and, like Chosen, plays up the women power, bad men motif a bit too much. If you look at Buffy, probably the most noble male character by the end of the show is probably Spike, since Xander and Giles both do really stupid things in six and seven.

But, I still like the trio, I think they're both funny, and effective, in showing that demons aren't the only evil out there. They're much more intersting characters than Adam, Glory or the first evil.

The 'rape'. So dodgy there on many grounds. Compare and contrast with all the other times when Buffy either ignored Spike not wanting to have sex or pretended not to want to make out in order to entice him on. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. And neither do the writers, as it's quickly dealt with next season so Buffy can sleep with Spike again. You can't have it both ways Marti, but hey, at least it gives you an excuse to torture Spike some more huh? Dirty, dirty men!

By sleep with, do you mean have sex, since I didn't think that Buffy and Spike had sex at all in season seven. She did sleep with him, but in a literal way.

Killing off Tara. I couldn't care less about the hysterical Kitten reaction to this, but while the main characters proceeded to get more distant from the audience, Tara was the grounded one, the emotional core of the team. I truly would have preferred anyone else dying apart from her. Which probably means that it had to be her or something.

It was a real shocking thing, and in a lot of ways neccessary storywise, but I agree that it really hurt season seven. Buffy was completely screwed up by the end of six, Xander was basically done, as was Anya, both bitter and rejected, and Willow was a recovering magi-holic, the heart was definitely missing. But, I think that's more a comment on the writer's failures in the seventh season, to develop an emotional replacement for Tara, rather than a judgment on the sixth season itself.

I think there's a general lumping of season six and seven when discussing the eras of the show, but they're vastly different seasons. Six is a very intense character study, intimate in scope. Seven is a huge story-driven thing, with very little character development. They're about as different as two seasons of the show could be.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
22:38 / 04.06.04
Kennedy.

Et tu, Joss?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:26 / 05.06.04
PatrickMM The Warren character fits your points, but I don't think the trio was designed to show that men are scum. It's more to show that power corrupts, even in humans. They're designed to take advantage of the stereotypical image of the male sci-fi geek. I don't see your points being particularly valid for Jonathan or Andrew.

Marti Noxon takes over producing the show and we have two main evil characters that are misogynists. Absolutely no-one in the preceeding five years.

Giles is very much the father figure for all the characters in the show, and I think he felt uncomfortable in that role, as he says in his song in the musical, he feels like if he keeps helping them, they'll never grow. By the end of season six, he realizes that maybe the best way to help them is to be there for everyone rather than just forcing them to make it on their own.

Which is a rather patronising attitude on his part isn't it?

I think that where the show goes wrong is probably at the start of season five. Characters leave, Riley, Joyce, Giles, Tara, and they don't get replaced, so the stories get claustrophobic. SMG isn't that good an actress, and by deciding to pair her character up with Spike the writers end up reworking a lot of ideas that they'd only just done with Angel. The show ends up feeding on itself.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
16:01 / 05.06.04
Marti Noxon takes over producing the show and we have two main evil characters that are misogynists. Absolutely no-one in the preceeding five years.

Indeed, so if all the main villains from the previous five years had been misogynists, it would work perfectly and be in keeping with the rest of the show. Yes. Clever. Really.

No, IT MAKES SENSE.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
16:08 / 05.06.04
Evil characters in superheroic vampyr slaying TV shows: the rules.

5a. One misogynist at once, please. I'm afraid the other one's only valid if you've had previous EVIL characters who hate women.

b. If it's your first misogynist, you need to make an application claiming that you understand the implications of having a character think and act this way, and certifying that you do not, in fact, hate men in any sense.


Damn those sneaky guidelines!
 
 
PatrickMM
18:03 / 05.06.04
I think that where the show goes wrong is probably at the start of season five. Characters leave, Riley, Joyce, Giles, Tara, and they don't get replaced, so the stories get claustrophobic. SMG isn't that good an actress, and by deciding to pair her character up with Spike the writers end up reworking a lot of ideas that they'd only just done with Angel. The show ends up feeding on itself.

On the first point, I really can't accept citing Riley as a character who needed to be replaced. He was a dull cipher who sucked up screentime from more interesting plots. What sort of role did Riley fill that needed to be replaced, annoying Buffy sidekick, because Dawn did that quite well. I'd say that Dawn was intended as a replacement for both Joyce and Riley, in that she has issues with Buffy being the slayer, while she's a human, like Riley, and she replaces Joyce obviously in the family sense, but also in the sense that she needs to be protected, both physically, and mentally from the dangers of Buffy's slaying.

Season four is too splintered, with all the characters off in their own little worlds. I actually like the claustrophobia of seasons five and six, where all the characters are kept close together physically, but have their own problems within that setting. It's closer to capturing the feeling of the high school years than four. In fact, the bunch of potential slayers in season seven was probably a direct attempt to recapture the feeling of being stuck together with a bunch of unrelated people, while having your own isolating problems, that the high school years were about.

And, I don't think that the Buffy/Spike pairing is in any way a retread of the issues with Buffy and Angel. Other than him being a vampire and possibly evil, I see virtually no similarities. Angel was all about this very pure vision of love, essentially unencumbered with sex, just about a fully emotional love. Spike is all about dirty, physical longing, for something you can't or shouldn't have.

I think Spike's crush on Buffy and then the two of them getting together saves the show. If Riley had continued for more than one season, her character would have become completely uninteresting, and the show probably would have fallen apart without any sort of interesting central focus.

But, not to just hate on Riley, it might have been interesting to keep Riley around for a bit after Buffy breaks up with him, and see him fall further into darkness, with his vampire prostitute thing, maybe even have him get turned into a vampire, something which I still can't believe they never did to a main character.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:52 / 06.06.04
I am completely baffled as to why Warren Meers WOULDN'T be the ideal villain for late-period Buffy. I don't think it was a "men suck" thing at all - it was a pretty accurate depiction of a particular strain of misogyny which is common among people who are usually ignored and not considered a major threat. No one takes Warren seriously until it's too late, which is just the way it often is in regular life. While Buffy et al are all distracted by bigger problems and personal dilemmas, this creep comes out of nowhere and acts out in a way which costs them dearly. They've been so used to monsters and mystical threats that they just weren't ready to deal with a creepy guy with a gun.

I think that's pretty brilliant, really.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:00 / 07.06.04
Well, apart from some weird, inarticulate posting on the subject a couple of years ago, I've remained pretty silent on this one. So to reiterate: I loved Season 6. Everyone I know loved Season 6. In my experience, Season 6 is THE series that turns newbies onto Buffy (6 or 7 people off the top of my head and counting...), and Flux seems to bear this out. I always thought it was an effortless and dramatic culmination of a million things bubbling beneath the shows surface (many of which've been on the boil since season one). Each of the characters is really forced to deal with their shit. It's libidinous, return-of-the-repressed stuff and, for me, fucking exciting. It really took each of the core group to a new place. I loved the pacing, the "dirgeyness" - the whole thing.

Fucking great.

[High-fives Flux]
 
 
The Natural Way
15:55 / 07.06.04
I patiently await my roasting a la JTB. I expect it to be a persuasive, articulate, passionate argument, but one that, in the end, will ultimately fail to convince......

An' tha's just the way it is.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:31 / 08.06.04
And here it comes...

Fucknuts.

Pretty good, yah? Ah rest mah case, shugah...

No, honestly, and with the best will in the world (ie, by being mean) - Flux and Patrick have kind of made my point for me, Patrick by making no sense whatsoever in anything he has said, and also by playing down issues of date rape, and Flux by being Flux. Don't you get it?

[channels Obi-Wan Kenobi] If your biggest ally is a horrendous goon like Fluxington, you've already lost. [/channels Obi-Wan Kenobi]
 
 
The Natural Way
11:38 / 08.06.04
You really are a bad man.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:51 / 08.06.04
Buffy jumped the shark when they left high school. Factoid. It's a high school comedy-fantasy-melodrama. To me, seasons six and seven aren't even canon - they're officially sanctioned, poorly written and produced fan fiction. I spurn them as I would spurn a rabid dog. Or Fluxington. Has no one told him that 'Matthew Fluxington' makes him sound like a Thatcherite Tory MP?
 
 
Ex
15:10 / 08.06.04
A crucial thing to remember is that Spike's attempted rape was more like a boyfriend coercing his girlfriend into having sex, rather than the more nefarious guy picking a person he doesn't know and just raping her. Spike wasn't aware of the boundaries, and he went too far.

I find this a rather disturbing take on it - do you really think that rape within relationships is somehow more excusable than stranger rape? I know we've had threads about relationship-rape in the Headshop, so I'll not run it into the ground. But to me, the 'relationship' aspect did not reduce the seriousness a whit.

As to the 'boundaries', it's a fucked-up relationship in many ways. Buffy beats Spike. That's fucked. Buffy frequently says 'no' to sex and gets talked round - also fucked. But I don't think we've ever seen anything that would indicate that Spike simply 'went too far' in using nonconsensual physical violence to initiate sex or attempt rape. It's not a logical progression from the fucked-upness of what has come before. It's a whole other level of wrong.

And I felt as though series 6 and 7 really didn't know how to handle it. They wanted the gravitas, but then they didn't want to have to mop up the aftermath.

. If what he went through wasn't enough to make Buffy forgive him for the attempted rape, what is?

I don't think that you can earn forgiveness for sexual assault by battling flamey demons in caves; I thought that was a cheap bit of sidestepping. I know Buffy demonstrates emotional problems (particularly adolescent ones) through using supernatural devices; that's its thang and I like it. But fuck, not here. Not when it's used to get the viewer onside, while trying to avoid actually dealing with the real, interpersonal effects of sexual violence.

I think Buffy likes its characters to do dreadful things from time to time, but is bad at bringing them to heel on it. You end up with a lot of showy drama, the moral structure becomes flimsy, and ultimately all you have is a vain prayer for audience amnesia and business as usual.

Season overall: Musical episode excellent. Dawn whiny. Kinky sex as sign of ultimate self-loathing and degredation - annoying and run into the ground. To me, the whole show has persistantly dangled kinky sex and then said 'Naughty! No! You bad bad viewer for even thinking that...' - and this season was just the most dramatic extension.
 
  

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