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Buffy Season Six, final episode - "Grave"

 
  

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Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:51 / 31.05.02
If you can't work out that there will be spoilers to season 6 then I pity the fool, and I aint gettin' in no plane...

Buffy season finale, Willow vs. Giles flinging special effects at each other. Like most of the rest of the season it's okay but pretty insipid (they don't do the great athletic battles, Buffy and the villain of the week just slap each other until the villain is mush) but then we get to the final 15 minutes of the show...

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Xander saves the world by loving Willow, Buffy suddenly decides that what she really needs is a kid sister who helps her fighting, Giles is saved from death by, umm, not dying, Jonathan and the other one are going to get raped repeatedly by a truck driver, for laughs! and Willow doesn't do anything but sob pathetically until the credits so the writing staff can put off until Autumn any kind of discussion over punishment for her torture and murder of a human being.

It couldn't have sucked more if they attached industrial milking machinery to it.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:01 / 31.05.02
xander shoulda snapped willows neck after she changed back, episode ands with a black screen and xanders voice "i love you"
 
 
uncle retrospective
12:09 / 31.05.02

You though Buffy sucked? Nothing happened in buffy that didn't need to happen. They just followed it out the way the characters had been set up. So apart from that stupid burried temple i didn't have that much a problem with it. It was kinda dull but okish.

Angel on the other hand was the worst pile of crap scince, oh the end of season 2. I was ready to throw the tv out the window. (luckly scrubs was on after so i didn't)
Oh his kids back from hell to kill angel! ohh! shock. The twist was so predictable I couldn't believe they went for it.
spit!
 
 
Trijhaos
12:27 / 31.05.02
Buffy had a decent end. I was a bit disappointed that it ended so quickly though. I think a nice cliffhanger ending with Buffy at Willow's mercy would have been pretty nifty.

Angel, on the other hand, has been horrible ever since that child came back. The only thing that saved the season finale of Angel was Wesley's interactions with Lilah.

"Oh no, whatever will happen to Angel?"
 
 
The Natural Way
12:55 / 31.05.02
I loved the end of S6 (what a surprise! Hey, I love to love!) - it was so neat and tidy.

Cut and paste action:

"all the loose, emotional, ends were cleared up (w/ the exception of Xander and Anya - tho', upoun hearing of Xand's "victory", her position appeared to shift slightly...in the right direction): Xander got to save the world, Willow got to kick it and Buffy in the arse (and now she can get on w/ being an adult), Giles got to return to it and Buffy learned to love it. Again."

Thanks me. Very enlightening.

And I just knew Giles had dosed Willow's fix. Clever, clever....

It's perfect. How do you beat the big, big bad - the worst thing ever? The collapse of everything? You invoke the beating, throbbing heart of the sereis: Willow and Xander's relationship.

You "make friends w/ them till they beg for mercy..."

Should Xander have 'kicked Willow's forkin ass!'? Please. I like people throwing special effects at each other and I like them loving each other - esp when I BELIEVE IT. And that's the important thing about Xander and Willow and their whole thing - I believe it. His affection for her has the weight of the series' entire history behind it - it's like a big, warm lovetruck. Just right, I thought.

And Hindermate predicted Xander would save the day and I love the whole interaction thing w/ Buffy. As I'm sure you can see from all the bloody predictions us noncey Brightoner's make. And the fact that we're so often on the money proves that, for us at least, the show's doing exactly what we feel it should do. Which is nice. I have 'Oz' (prison drama, not laconic werewolf) for the other thing.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:15 / 31.05.02
It was so obvious that Giles intended for Willow to steal his magic because if he hadn't she wouldn't have stolen it. And how many churches on cliffs do you know that when there's an earthquake will completely subside into the ground instead of getting knocked over the cliff when it crumbles?
 
 
The Natural Way
15:19 / 31.05.02
True about the Giles thing. Just though it was a good idea. As for the rest: who cares?
 
 
Saint Keggers
19:49 / 31.05.02
QUote: " And how many churches on cliffs do you know that when there's an earthquake will completely subside into the ground instead of getting knocked over the cliff when it crumbles?"

It wasnt a church..it was an EVIL church. Big diffrerence.
Its called willing suspension of disbelief.

And if you havent been watching the series fro the begining (more or less) I could see how the last ep. would have sucked..but I thought I was great. Xander saved the day by doing the only thing he could..putting his life on the line for a friend.

Besides SMG said they had to do the big depressing season because after fighting a god; where else is there to go from there. They had to bring it down a notch before they could start up again and get back to normal life in sunnydale. But she looks forward to getting back to quirky one-liners and fighting the vamps again.
 
 
A Bigger Boat
08:28 / 01.06.02
Oh, they *had* to bring it down a notch. (nods slowly)
I can see that now (strokes chin)
I'd better hope that the other TV shows i like manage to stay mediocre, in that case, because if any series manages to pop its head above average then the next season will have to be mired down with cluncky dialogue, pointless padding and ennui-inducing lack of imagination. It's the only thing that a team of writers can do.

Maybe this is what happened to Friends.

Maybe that's why The Phantom Menace was so godawful.

Or maybe it was just bad writing, bad execution and bad acting.

It strikes me that they did the whole dissolution theme back in season 4 (?) The one with Adam and (shudder) Riley. But of course they have to do it again because the only other alternative would be to try and work really hard to think of somewhere exciting to go with the series. The last season of Buffy was nothing more than poorly disguised soap opera and I think that it was a tacit acknowledgement on the part of the writers that it was a series that should have ended with Buffy's death. They clearly have no idea what direction to take it in. Given their vapid handling of character "growth" between this series and the last I hold no hope that any of the "characters" will be at all equipped to deal with the aftermath of events that have unfolded painfully before our eyes this time. I can see it now: Buffy quietly sits Willow down to discuss her bad behaviour and perhaps help her begin the grief process, when - rather than having to actually write some good dialogue - something will burst through a wall or appear out of thin air and everyone can forget their worries for a while.

My fervant hope is that there is no new series - I couldn't stand another 22 odd episodes of that cack again. A nice two hour special where Spike returns to Sunnydale, slaughters everyone and establishes hell on earth, with his throne over the hellmouth.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:55 / 01.06.02
And if you havent been watching the series fro the begining (more or less) I could see how the last ep. would have sucked..but I thought I was great. Xander saved the day by doing the only thing he could..putting his life on the line for a friend.

I have been watching it since right at the start. The one advantage this has over the end of last season was the solution at least made sense (whereas that whole blood of my blood crap didn't). But it was still shit. Halfway through the final episode and they suddenly need a world-threatening danger? Why couldn't Xander do his thing to stop Willow killing Giles rather than to resurrect a plaster-cast demon?

Besides SMG said they had to do the big depressing season because after fighting a god; where else is there to go from there. They had to bring it down a notch before they could start up again and get back to normal life in sunnydale. But she looks forward to getting back to quirky one-liners and fighting the vamps again.

Well, seeing as I'm part of the 'season 5 was a logical place to stop the series' camp I've not got much sympathy for 'where do you go after fighting a god?'
 
 
A Bigger Boat
09:09 / 01.06.02
put the characters on the offensive.
Have them try to close the hellmouth.

I agree that the series should have ended after 5. Let Angel do his thing in peace.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:38 / 01.06.02
Do you remember that bit in The Sandman were Morpheus sends Cain to the devil, because he knows the devil won't dare hurt him, and Cain comes back and says something like; "He didn't care about my mark, it amused him." All Buffy's baddies in season 7 should by like that about her being the Slayer.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:47 / 03.06.02
Blake's 7 fan here seeing no excuse for bringing the title character back after ze quits...

yes, I agree that the last episode resolved all the character stuff that had been set up; the problem is that it was set up clunkily, badly, sentimentally, and very transparently in order to lead to said 'resolution'. Emotional pornography (or 'dawson's creek with vampires'). After the death of Joyce, it is frankly fucking stupid to resort to this lame drugs/magick metaphor for grief.

Though Willow and Giles fighting was *brilliant* and Spike getting his soul back is going to bring me back to S7 for more (God help me). I just have to remember not to expect too much from Buffy; its emotional accuracy and artistic merit is pretty patchy, but it consistently delivers pretty shiny pictures and cool (on its own terms) scenarios. And Willow.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:57 / 03.06.02
There's a few things I expect from the Buffy people for next season. I expect them to keep the fun in - the angsty problems regarding paying the gas bills must be in the past now. I expect a dose of reality to creep back in again. We need some goddam context around the place, we need some recurring characters who are in the background rather than the foreground, we need some problems in their lives that are identifiable with and aren't soul-destroyingly real or soul-stealingly fantastic. Most importantly, their roles must now be secure for a while. It's important that they skip past a good deal of the bollocks regarding this and get down to brass tacks again. And this brings us to the most important aspect - pro-activeness. It's time for Buffy and her crew to stop being reactive and start being pro-active.

So my suggestions - get them working together in a more adult democratic way, get Willow to be away for the first half of the first episode with Giles at the Watcher's Council. Play up Willow's relationship with Giles, the fact that he used to abuse dark magic as well, and explore the reasons that he doesn't do it any more - a sixties episode might be quite cool here. And then have Willow start training as a Watcher in addition to her college stuff. Good opportunity for the working her to death stuff that kept Buffy and Giles' relationship so tense early on.

Dawn is a decent age now and certainly comparable to how old Buffy was in early episodes, so she should now start acting like Buffy did in those episodes. Like she's actually having fun and making friends with a sister who's the coolest fucking kiss-ass vampire killing bitch in the world. An episode concentrating on her and a relationship with a boy would NOT be a bad thing if it was done right.

Xander and Anya are tricky now. Probably trickier than they've been for a while. Marriages don't make for exciting drama. But Anya's a vengeance demon again so she's now suddenly actually useful. So you can undermine the difficulties of showing the relationship all the time by sending her off on a mission.

Which brings me back to the essence of what this series should be about. It should be about everyone's efforts to turn their lives around - to really commit to positive change. And to be prepared to work. And simultaneously to be about not being hit-at any more, but to actively try and take back their town (MOO style) from the creatures of the night.

This is Buffy getting Anya to scout around for news of the demon realm, while Xander worries. This is Willow being trained on the job by Giles researching potential threats in a pre-emptive fashion. This is detective work, research, self-discovery etc. And most importantly, it's everyone walking out of step with Spike, who should return suddenly overwhelmed by what he's done in his part, completely confused about what it means to be a vampire with a soul again, needy and desperate, while everyone around him is getting on with shit....

That's my two cents anyway...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:21 / 03.06.02
Yeah, what Tom said.
 
 
Saint Keggers
18:33 / 03.06.02
Yeah, I like those Tom ideas.

And the ending to this seasons Angel sucked compared to Buffy.
 
 
Tamayyurt
20:11 / 04.06.02
Hey Tom, is there anyway to send that post the the people (cause now it's more than one) in charge of Buffy?
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:53 / 04.06.02
Uh, is Giles actually back in the series now or what? I understood that he was to be in his own show in the BBC.

Zoom.
 
 
Trijhaos
21:36 / 04.06.02
Ripper has been put on hold while work on Firefly is being done. According to rumor, Head has been contracted for, I believe, 15 episodes. Same deal with Benson.
 
 
paw
23:09 / 04.06.02
has spike got a soul now? i don't watch buffy that much anymore
 
 
Trijhaos
23:34 / 04.06.02
Yes, Spike has a soul. There's no indication of what kind of soul though. He could be Spike the human, or Spike the souled vampire.
 
 
paw
00:12 / 05.06.02
if you don't mind me asking, how did he get it?
 
 
Trijhaos
00:19 / 05.06.02
He went to Africa and met with this demon or something along those lines. All I remember seeing is glowing green eyes. Spike said, "I want you to make me the way I was" or something like that. The demon agreed, but said that the process would be long and painful. Spike was basically like "Bring it on, if it lets me give that bitch what she deserves". The demon agreed and said Spike needed to be tested.

Spike basically went through a trial through combat. His first opponent was a guy with flaming hands. Spike killed him and had to face another opponent. The last trial was being covered in maggots(?). Spike survived all that and said to the demon, "Are you satisfied, I've passed your bloody trials, now give me what I've come for". The demon's all "As we agreed, I now return your soul to you". Cut to the credits.

That's it basically. I'm sure someone will be able to fill in any gaps I may have left unfilled. Note, most of my quotes are not dead on accurate, but are basically correct.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:50 / 05.06.02
The big stumbling block WRT Ripper seems to be that, being an American network, whichever company involved wants the BBC to make a full years worth of episodes off the bat. The BBC won't (and probably can't afford to). I doubt it's going to be made now that Joss is into Firefly.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:59 / 05.06.02
Lada: just read yr thing about how Buffy should've ended w/ S5. No, no, no. Unless you assume that the series begins and ends w/ Gellar and everyone else's subplots/process can just be piddled away w/ a few shots of them crying and one of a grave. It had to carry on, Buffy clearly wasn't going to remain dead - there were too many threads hanging, esp Dawn. T'was obvious she was set to be a replacement Slayer/whatever, right from the start.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:32 / 05.06.02
so, is giles john constantine?
thats what i want to know
the idea tom mentioned about a 60s episode brought an instant flash of "Love Street" the mini series about JCs youth
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:35 / 05.06.02
also, "make me the way i was" would smack of humanity, not vamp with a soul, as spike was never a vamp with a soul, he would have been :made the way he was" IE human right?
 
 
Trijhaos
12:39 / 05.06.02
Right, he was never a vampire with a soul. But, the both the demon's and Spike's words are vague. "Make me the way I was" can have a number of meanings.

1. Somebody who can feel guilt, remorse, love, all those human things which means
a. A human
b. A vampire with a soul.

2. He could have meant the way he was before the chip was shoved in his head. That would mean a big badass vampire who can cause terror and all that good stuff.

We're just going to have to wait until this fall to find out what really happens, other than the obvious Willow becomes Watcher, Dawn becomes Slayer stuff.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:45 / 05.06.02
Hindermate tentatively predicted the last ep would end w/ Spike emerging from the cave and strolling into the Dawn. Would've been much more effective. Now, either they didn't think of that'n or Spike's a souled vamp. I'm curious, but Joss did point out that they've already got one vampire w/ a soul and they wouldn't be going that route again. Could've been being sarky, tho' - couldn't work him out.
 
 
Trijhaos
13:00 / 05.06.02
Not to get technical, but if Spike did become a vampire with a soul, he wouldn't be quite like Angel. See, Angel's soul started out as a curse and there's that whole moment of true happiness deal. Spike asked for a soul. His soul probably doesn't have any of those strings attached.

If Spike did become human, Buffy still won't accept him. She's not going to be able to be happy with a normal human as a partner. Remember Riley? After he stopped taking his supersoldier vitamins, he couldn't keep up with her.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:18 / 05.06.02
Not sure about that. I don't think they'd give Spikey his soul back just so's he could mope over Buffy - no...they're going somewhere w/ this and Buffy hasn't had a boyfriend in ages....

Not sure Spike'll survive the series, however.
 
 
Trijhaos
13:29 / 05.06.02
The only thing I don't want to see is Spike moping over all the bad shit he did. "Oh god, I killed all those people, how can I live with myself".

You know, this would be the perfect time to have a Buffy/Angel crossover. Spike could speak with Angel (after he's rescued of course) about what its like to have a soul and how to deal with the hundreds of years of guilt.
 
 
A Bigger Boat
16:54 / 05.06.02
no, No, NO!

Leave Angel out of this. That poor fucking series has been slaving away under the shadow of big sis for far too long. It's got it's own legs, its own heart and its own ethos. It's fine as it is, don't start trying to inject some interest back into Buffy by bringing down a far superior series by association.

For the record, I've watched Buffy since ep1 and I don't want it to return to its perky high school tone (if it ever really had one). I lament the passing of engaging dialogue, exciting scripts and rollocking good entertainment. Buffy (& Joss Whedon?) is a series (man?) that takes itself far too seriously nowadays. That is not me dissing dark themes and depressing tone, its just me suggesting that Buffy has lost sight of the prize.

Angel, meanwhile, still has the mission. It's all about the mission.

Can I *please* get an Amen?
 
 
Trijhaos
17:07 / 05.06.02
Angel's superior to Buffy? Maybe season 2 was, but season 1 was basically Forever Knight with more supernatural elements tossed in and season three was completely ruined by that damned kid. Angel cooing over a baby was bad enough, but when they brought teenager Connor back, well all I can say is ick.

I think Angel needs to get back to the basics. No Touched by An Angel, White-lighter Cordelia, no goddamned idiot teenager, and for the love of god, get rid of Fred and Gunn.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:15 / 05.06.02
2. He could have meant the way he was before the chip was shoved in his head. That would mean a big badass vampire who can cause terror and all that good stuff.
spike obviously meant be a bad ass vampire, however deals with demons are complex things

If Spike did become human, Buffy still won't accept him. She's not going to be able to be happy with a normal human as a partner. Remember Riley? After he stopped taking his supersoldier vitamins, he couldn't keep up with her.
perhaps thats the point, spike is now human, he feels sick over what he has done, and wants to be accepted now that he has grown past all that, but buffy does not want him since he is wasty
 
  

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