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Roy Keane and the world cup

 
  

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Dao Jones
14:28 / 29.05.02
Wow. This really is a blind spot, isn't it? How weird. Haus, in what other arena would you accept a blanket distinction between 'hoolies' and the rest of the world?

Are you saying that Corporation Football Ltd. is trying hard to find a sustainable middle ground of jingoism and nationalism, which will sell t-shirts and advertising slots but not erupt into actual violence? And you're okay with that, yes?

Shall we talk about my other baseless allegations? We could start with sexism, if you like. Or you could sit down with some cocoa and consider the possibility that you might be thinking with your heart this time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:25 / 29.05.02
Quite possibly. But I am also probably more experienced and knowledgable about football than you. And that is, I hasten to add, only a guess.

As for hoolies - I'm a liberal, but I'm a very hardcore liberal. I agree entirely that violent behaviour at or outside football grounds is not acceptable and must be quashed, and there are clubs I would not go to either to avoid thew aggro or because I disagree with their policies on dealing with unacceptable behaviour among the fans. It just so happens that I am not ready to write off football in its entirety, and the World Cup specifically because there is the possibility of violent behaviour around it. By that logic I would presumably have to start questioning the validity of popular protests, especially against WTO meetings, as the press have told me all about the hardcore of violent types just looking for a ruck.

As I say, I can understand feeling alienated from football. Whether that makes it worthwhile to claim it as a pure social evil is another matter.
 
 
captain piss
15:40 / 29.05.02
For some reason I read your last post with the voice of Mr Bronson from Grange Hill in my head, Haus. But I kind of agree that the whole undertaking shouldn't be written off because off a few unpleasant things that come with it.
Hell, in Scotland the sorry spectacle of the team's exit in the opening stages is almost a formality before getting down to the serious business of willing Enland to lose. Maybe not appealing to the more vaunted sensibilities in us all, but it's still amusing in it's own way.
Just as an aside- I'm quite looking forward to the whole event, even though I'm not really a hardcore football guy. Having read and listened to lots of opinions in the last couple of weeks, have come away with the impression that France are most likely to steam through.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:19 / 29.05.02
Not necessarily - they should head their group but will miss Zidane if his injury keeps him out longer than that, and the occasional moments of madness from Barthez in goal may be a problem, especially if they persist in playing creaky old Frank Leboeuf in front of him...
 
 
Dao Jones
20:50 / 29.05.02
Haus - advantages of a multiple personality, I guess. Football, Skydiving, French Film Noir...all the same to me.

I'm not claiming football as an evil. I just won't accept it as unsullied by the things you seem to want to separate from it - I don't think that football in its current incarnation could survive without the things I mistrust - sports clubs generally seem to be a haven for outmoded behaviours. But since I also don't believe in killing illusions stone dead, I think I'll leave it there.

Incidentally, there's nothing I enjoy more than watching an outsider nation like Cameroon kick butt.

On the way home from work this evening, I kept hearing a MacDonald's ad which I still don't know how to read. It was a bunch of Brits singing 'Deutschland Uber Alles' because they'd backed Germany to win in a competition and were going on holiday. Maybe corporate greed is good for something.

Go figure.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:29 / 30.05.02
But since I also don't believe in killing illusions stone dead, I think I'll leave it there.

Because you could kill me. You could kill me stone dead with one hand. You just don't.....want to.

Round of grown-up juice for the multiple suit in the corner, barman.
 
 
Rev. Orr
07:55 / 30.05.02
Said ze didn't want to. Didn't say ze wouldn't... [/buffy mode]
 
 
Dao Jones
08:21 / 30.05.02
Haus, you're building your castle on sand. Your defenses thus far have been "It's not like that in my pub"; "You don't really know football"; and "Well, maybe it is like that, but that's not really football's fault". You're way below your usual level of argument on this one, and it's quite clearly something you care about and don't need fucked around with. Since I've repeatedly argued that there is a moment at which theory should piss off and let the lifeworld get on with business, that's what I'm going to do. Think what you like.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:36 / 30.05.02
And when you've finished scoring glorious victory after glorious victory against the straw men XI...

My defences thus far have been that you have not managed to produce any actual support for your thesis that the interests of the corporations who profit from the game are in any way advanced by the violence connected with it, barring some flimflammery about "raising the tension". As a result of this, your contention that the violence, sexism, racism and homophobia you atrribute to "football" is in any way specific to and caused by football itself, and not that football matches provide a convenient locus for large groups of pissed, stupid men to congregate and behave like...large groups of pissed, stupid men. If your complaint is simpoly that football events provide a "venue" for sexism, racism and homophobia then a) don't want to break your multiple heart, but *the world* provides a venue for sexism, racism and homophobia, and one that is used with gusto and b) why should we not also be campaigning for the abolition of nightclubs, bars and Balearic resorts, all venues for jingoism, racism, sexism, homophobia, violent behaviour kai ta loipa.

You have failed totally to address any of my comments (and still waiting to hear how Wilson in 1966 was a victory of the jingoistic right, or how the Front Nationale is served by one of the embodiments of Frenchness being of Algerian descent, whose iconic status comes from his successful interaction with a racially mixed group of teammates), instead merely choosing to cry "yes, but go see England-Germany in a pub!" - which, as I say, I have - and then trotting out a specious comparison to institutional racism - as it is clearly *not* in the best interests of clubs or sponsors to have their brand associated with racism, violence or other nasties which are likely to alienate high-value middle-class consumers, and as clubs such as Millwall and Cardiff who fail to control their fans lose money through FA fines, higher policing costs, repair bills...the best you can offer is that they raise the "frenzy" or the "tension", and as such are naturally complicit in inciting racism and violent behaviour. Obviously. Like chess.

There are many things wrong with football, or arising from the popularity and self-construction of football. One of those things is hooliganism, another is the feeling of separation between clubs and local communities at the top end of the game, another is the spiralling wage bills and transfer fees creating an artificial and unsustainable drain on resources, another is the cooption of the flsg by the right (not a problem solely of football, of course), another is the difficulty of cracking down completely on unacceptable behaviour in crowds of 60,000, and the inefficiency of international customs in identifying and excluding hooligans more effectively. All of these must be addressed if football is not to implode or drive away its supporters, leaving only eejits looking for a ruck (many of whom are likely to turn up in Japan without any tickets to see a match, btw, much as Dutch hoolies now arrange to meet for fights at landmarks away from the actual ground and its concomitant policing, thus giving up completelky on the idea of actually watching or supporting the footballers they claim to love). It is possible that football will not be able to adapt, and as such I heartily agree that the current situation may well lead to a bust, some clubs going to the wall, others having to throw themselves on the mercy of precisely the local fanbase they have been neglecting (and which is driven away by, amongh other things, crappy behaviour at and around the ground) and hope there is enough cash and enough goodwill to keep them afloat.

However, your comments so far are built not so much on sand as on flannel (what is football in its current incarnation? Do you mean with a ball not made of leather, or with high wage levels and high sponsorship fees? Is the collapse of the German sports licensing agency and ITVDigital the death knell for this "incarnation" of football - without some idea of what you mean by this term, this comment is meaningless). You have now gone through the classic Dao paradigm - sweeping proposition followed by abuse followed by condescension and withdrawal when the tiny ones under your care do not fall to their knees before your vague and cloudy argument. Which is a shame, because I think we probably broadly agree on much about football, but your terminology is so wooly and your argumentation so lazy and so founded on the presumption of rectitude that the pitch is, in effect, unplayable.

Right. I am now back to lovely warm schnoogles.
 
 
Dao Jones
11:10 / 30.05.02
Okay.

Football is not just the game played between the two teams. It's also the economics surrounding the game, and the attitudes and publicity. Without these things, there is no football as we know it. When I talk about football in its present incarnation, I mean the professional game, the sponsorship deals, the high salaries and a sport so thoroughly enmeshed in business that EU employment law can be in conflict with the transfer system. This situation is not inherent in the basic rules; it's the melding of money and sport. It's not unique to football, but it's a major aspect of football.

I did not say that the interests of the corporations who are part of football (not 'connected with it' - there is no magic separation) are served by violence, but rather that they are served by greater tension between teams; in this case national teams. It is possible that violence is actually to their disadvantage. What I suggested, however, was that for the promoters of football, the ideal situation is a massive commitment to the national team, to the point of rabid nationalism which does not lead to actual violence. Almost all the advertising by the sponsors of the World Cup is nationalistic in flavour, and even the MacDonald's ad I mentioned in my previous post recognises the nationalism in the World Cup whilst playing with it. It is, of course, inevitable. What's not inevitable is the tone of advertising - which has in the past indisputably been 'smash the bosch'. Whether that will be the overall message this time around is an open question.

Breaking for lunch. More later.
 
 
Rev. Orr
11:42 / 30.05.02
I agree that football at the highest level has been absorbed by business (cf. Nike's deal with Brazil or the sale of Wimbledon which looks like taking the club to Milton Keynes) but how is that in any way exclusive to one sport? We now have a situation where athletes are choosing sponsored meets over the Olympics, fixture congestion is ruining professional rugby union (and the health of their players) and the financial rewards of success are leading to increasing levels and sophistication of drug use in all sports. Why single out football?

And, if business interests had such an all-pervading control over the game and all those who watch it, violence and the attendant negative associations and publicity would be eliminated as running counter to 'good business' and the image they need to portray. The fact that they can't get rid of it entirely surely implies that it is a societal problem, or at the very least an issue for sport as a whole. It seems that football is an easy target due to a superior attitude towards its popularity.
 
 
Fist Fun
12:19 / 30.05.02
It's also the economics surrounding the game, and the attitudes and publicity. Without these things, there is no football as we know it.
Perhaps the game as you know it, but not as I and most other football followers do. If you don't go to matches, watch games, etc then you probably do have a very superficial idea of what the game is about. It isn't suprising that your view is limited to the sensational stories that creep throught to the front pages. The corporate takeover of sport is very unpleasant indeed but it doesn't really have that much to do with the enjoyment of the sport. In fact, as far as football in the UK is concerned it is a relatively recent invention and the people it affects most of all are the grassroots supporters. Having said that it isn't all bad. You can choose to partake of the increased coverage without spending money on tacky merchandise, you can enjoy a bit of healthy competition without it turning into jingoism and aggression, you can applaud a highly tuned performance on the field and not be blind to the faults of the person behind it.
 
 
Dao Jones
12:32 / 30.05.02
[shrug] This topic's about football, so that's what we're talking about.

Why is everyone so confident that violence is bad business? Many many more people watch football at home than go to matches, so violence isn't so much of an issue for them. If violence represents the extreme end of a spectrum of devotion to a team, perhaps it's better business to brush up against violence than it is to miss the top end of the non-violent segment. And it's not as if companies act for the best of their customers. Ciggie, anyone? There's also a world of difference between not wanting a brand associated with issues like racism and acting to prevent it or avoid coddling it.

I never claimed that football was the origin point of nationalism, I said that it would 'spark jingiosm' and 'provide a venue' for sexism, racism and homphobia. It's been claimed that the remarkable nationalism displayed during Euro '96 was the product of tabloid journalism, but this claim is rejected in the War Minus The Shooting article I linked to earlier. Even if this were the case, the notion that Tabloid culture can be wholely dissociated from football is ludicrous. The tabloids feed on football, the teams needs the advertising revenue they receive because companies know their logos will be on the front or back pages of the Sun every other week. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

I notice you haven't taken a crack at sexism and homophobia yet.

Yes, there's a lot of effort made in football to oust some of these nasties. No, it's not enough, and the football associations don't come close to acting firmly enough when such things rear up. Yes, football itself, in its better moments, is a force to bring people together. But that does not offset the moments of extraordinary badness which also accompany it. Again, some of these result from social issues - but I've never denied that. It's also the case that these issues are now circular - football-related violence feeds social problems feeds violence...

Since we're discussing debating techniques, Haus, I might as well repeat that I'm fascinated by what you're not bringing to this discussion. Usually, I'd expect you to chase every relationship, insist on a web of interaction around an issue, and require every party involved to accept their share of responsibility. But there's an island around football, apparently. The things which happen around it are not 'the game', they're just baggage.

As I said. Weird.
 
 
Dao Jones
12:36 / 30.05.02
Buk: If you don't got to matches, watch games, etc then you probably do have a very superficial idea of what the game is about.

I do got to matches, though not, apparently, as often as you. But perhaps you have a narrower impression of the game because you're part of the culture. You have an experiential knowledge I can't equal, but perhaps that makes you unable or unwilling to appreciate a broader picture.

As to 'what the game is about'...that depends who you are and where you're standing, doesn't it? Football, like any other text, can be read in a number of ways.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:46 / 30.05.02
I notice you haven't taken a crack at sexism and homophobia yet.

Well, I'm not quite sure where to start on those. Is the contention that football encourages sexism and homophobia, or that footballers *are* sexist and homophobic? The first seems a slightly odd statement except possibly in the case of the second, where the players may be seen to be role models for the fans...
 
  

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