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Roy Keane and the world cup

 
  

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Fist Fun
17:00 / 28.05.02
Anyone interested in the whole Roy Keane and world cup saga? It is, obviously, a huge story and is taking up a fair portion of the back and front pages. Even if you don't like football you have to be at least a little intrigued by the politics, the emotional wrangling of it.
Here is one of the greatest footballers in the world, set to appear on the biggest global stage but he ends up walking out due to a personality clash with the manager and some of the other players. His world cup ends with the words "You were a crap player and you are a crap manager, stick it up your bollocks" and an angry exit.
The story itself isn't all that unusual Cruyff did much the same at the 78 finals and the troubled genius structure has been used many times in fiction. Think Keano a la Jake LaMotta, the source of his power inside the ring growing to become a crippling weakness outside it.
Anyone else interested in this?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:07 / 28.05.02
i'm interested in how anyone can stick anything up their bollocks!

and the whole 'english cunt' tirade is offensive. but really, all i hear so far of the pre-world cup build up is the drama queen antics of the players. don't tell me beckham was ever in doubt for the finals. it's all hollywood!
 
 
Fist Fun
17:18 / 28.05.02
Well I think it was intended to be offensive. The interesting thing watching someone lash out like that, then refus to stand down and knowing that they are hurting themself as much as anyone else. Human weakness.
The pre-world cup injury pantomime is kind of amusing, isn't it. Lots of anticipation but not much to write about...
 
 
uncle retrospective
17:18 / 28.05.02

BLURG!

I am so sick of this fucking topic and I'm going to vent all over your thread. (Sorryish).

I hate football at the best of times, I was braceing myself for a month of hell in June when people will be shiteing on and on and on about fucking football. Then this happened. It's been the top news story in Ireland from the second it broke. Not scince 9/11 has one topic dominated the whole country.

Even if you don't like football you have to be at least a little intrigued by the politics, the emotional wrangling of it.

No. Two Egos collided and there was a huge mess and really childish name calling. Mind you I was surprised that no one over here even mentioned the "English Cunt" thing, It was just laughed off for being a bit strong.
So heres to hoping the whole thing falls down the back of the sofa where it belongs.

[/vent]
 
 
Fist Fun
17:24 / 28.05.02
Yeah, unc, I can understand why you are sick of the coverage. There has been lots of it...but it is a compelling story. The man who has it all and fucks it up ... due to what? An inability to accept the mediocrity of others. There are also the personal problems side of it, things that are well known locally but which the lawyers are keeping out of the press, thankfully, Keane has his fair share of problems and he can crack just like the rest of us.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:49 / 28.05.02
unc - i've gone on and on here about how i hate the use of the word 'cunt' as an insult. thought it didn't need to be repeated.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:04 / 28.05.02
Well, he was quoting Roy Keane, who is a basically nasty piece of work...

I'm interested that a) the English press doesn't seem to have caught on to the "English ladypart" insult, and b) that the fallout has revealed levels of snarky bitchiness never before imagined in Jason McAteer.

"He came up to me and shouted 'you're going with the flow!'. I thought, all right then, and asked what else goes with the flow. 'Dead fish!' Well, P-R-O-F-O-U-N-D. The Messiah has spoken!"

I didn't even think McAeer could *spell* profound...

Also that all these parallels are being drawn between Keane as symbol of the Celtic tiger, for whom success is all, and the rest of the team as being happy-go-lucky, there for the craic old Ireland. Simplification much?
 
 
uncle retrospective
21:20 / 28.05.02

Also that all these parallels are being drawn between Keane as symbol of the Celtic tiger, for whom success is all, and the rest of the team as being happy-go-lucky, there for the craic old Ireland. Simplification much?

That's the message coming from the media here. Roy was For Real and the others were just out for a kick about.
Ho hum.

Is there much in the news outside Ireland?
 
 
sleazenation
21:31 / 28.05.02
News from rest of the world: India and Pakistan are on the brink of nuclear war! - still, don't let a little thing like that detract from a minor clash of egos.
 
 
uncle retrospective
21:49 / 28.05.02

I hate to sound like an idiot, but is it that bad. There is almost nothing else in the Irish news and the India and Pakistan thing is being played as look at this lot bicker. 6 Stories down the running list.
 
 
sleazenation
21:59 / 28.05.02
In the past 30 years India and Pakistan have been in a declared state of war 3 times - the issue of Kashmir has never been settled in the two states 50 year histories - and now they both have nuclear capabilities... I think a nuclear exchange is more likely than it *ever* was during the cold war... Of course many won't agree that it is that serious until the moment the bombs go off....
 
 
uncle retrospective
22:03 / 28.05.02
Great. Got to love sports coverage.
Isn't it great?
 
 
Fist Fun
06:36 / 29.05.02
the English press doesn't seem to have caught on to the "English ladypart" insult

How should the press have reacted? I understand why the remark would be considered offensive, but to be honest I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in it. That is the way people speak on the terraces and in locker rooms (ok, only got five-a-side experience to speak of, but work with me). You would be completely in the right to take issue with it but at the same time you would be alienating people who might otherwise be on your side.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:32 / 29.05.02
It is, of course, possible to pay attention simultaneously to the World Cup and world politics, in the same way that it is possible to pay attention simultaneously to the week's comics or the new Sebadoh album and world politics...the idea that everyone has to be nice to each other just because the world is about to end is-

Actually a very good one. Love you guys!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:46 / 29.05.02
"everyone has to be nice to each other just because the world is about to end"

excuse the threadrot, but yeah i would hope it would put life into perspective. and i'm really glad i've been spending my 'divorce' settlement money on travelling to see friends and family than investing it in a pension.
 
 
sleazenation
08:20 / 29.05.02
Haus, I'd love to believe that world cup coverage wasn't providing a welcome screen for some people and many news broadcasters to avoid thinking/engaging with world politics, but that just doesn't ring true.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:23 / 29.05.02
Tell you what. Let's stick to talking about Roy Keane here, and if the impending end of the world in fire and tumult is SO BLOODY IMPORTANT, let's give it its own thread.

Honestly, some people....no sense of perspective....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:54 / 29.05.02
Sleaze: Nonetheless, that attitude smacks of elitism and contempt. Fine, the fact that we are in the run-up to a World Cup is a distraction to some people. But I don't see anyone cancelling their plans for the weekend to sit down and have a really serious think about Kashmir...simple fact is, some people don't *need* an excuse not to think about world politics, and some people are able to think both about world politics and football. Unless you intend to hijack the PA system at Comicon whatsitsface at the weekend and yell "Stop kvetching about Legend of the Rangers, you FUCKS, and focus on the Kashmir crisis!" then I can't quite see how this is not just a handy bit if prole-bashing.
 
 
sleazenation
08:59 / 29.05.02
equally this charge of elitism probably belongs in the switchboard thread india, Pakistan and nuclear war?" about both the conflict and if its even relevant to relatively privilidged westerners anayway.
 
 
captain piss
09:52 / 29.05.02
SFD:
don't tell me beckham was ever in doubt for the finals. it's all hollywood!

I hadn't really cottoned on to this, but it does seem rather suspicious - the mysterious healing power of hands on newsprint, as I heard someone say.
Must admit, the whole affair has been occupying more of my time and emotion than the Kashmir crisis, rather damningly. Not that worrying about it is really going to help anyone- it's not as if we'll all be chuckling at a dodgy Ferdinand passback as the subcontinent disappears in a ball of light
 
 
Shortfatdyke
09:58 / 29.05.02
one could also be extremely cynical and say that if england stuff up, then there are ready made excuses....
 
 
Fist Fun
10:27 / 29.05.02
I hadn't really cottoned on to this, but it does seem rather suspicious
Yeah, a cunning ploy that, missing the European Cup semis, potential final and the vital championship run in. So erm no, it hasn't been staged. The media did, of course, latch on to the pantomime potential of the story.
So anyway, take your eyes of world affairs for a moment, and answer me this Barbelith. Who else is looking forward to the world cup? Who d'ya reckon will win it? (look this is the conversation, ok, these are the kind of things I idly chat about)
 
 
Dao Jones
11:24 / 29.05.02
The promoters will win. The players will get paid huge salaries. Coke will make a fortune. So will beer companies. Football will continue to drift into the realm of the corporate. It will continue to be a release from wage-drudgery for a few, an opiate fantasy for many. It will spark jingoism in the UK and elsewhere, so the right will win. It will provide a venue for racism, homophobia and sexism.

Yay. In-ger-lund.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:31 / 29.05.02
you know, i can't help hoping in-ger-land will go out sooner rather than later. it might keep the trashing of towns here and in japan to a minimum.....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:50 / 29.05.02
Actually, the best thing I have seen so far was the japanese riot police, who are equipped with some truly vicious and some deeply cool weapons (I so want a webgun), but are also planning to deploy movable signs with a scrolling marquee saying "stop that immediately" and other hoolie-calming devices.

Meanwhile, to address Dao's comments: how about the French team's display as a focus for racial integration within France, and their threat to resign en masse if le Pen became president? Or the jingoism sparked by England's 1966 win, which swept the fascist Wilson government to control of parliament? Or the fact that the World Cup is one of the few arenas where poor countries have a chance to compete on equal terms with rich countries, as the clubs of those rich countries often do the players the favour of taking over the developement of their talent for them? Where else in sport do you get that level of communitarianism?

Personally I am excited about the World Cup, although a little distracted by events elsewhere. Because it will provide countries who are normally only allowed sidebars on the latest natural or economic disaster to develop a bit of profile. Because, despite the horror of FIFA and the nightmare sponsorship, there is still some element of global friendship and global levelling (rememnber USA-Iran? Fucking classic!) in amongst the nonsense. Because the cash from the cup will help, among other things, to develop women's football, although I certainly believe more should be done on this. But mainly because it will have some quality matches.
 
 
Dao Jones
12:16 / 29.05.02
Yes, Haus, those are good things. Now piss off down the pub when England are playing Germany and absorb some sad reality.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:21 / 29.05.02
Ah, Dao. An ill-informed proposition, followed by abuse. How predictable your many users are.

I very much suspect unlike you, I have actually watched England-Germany in a pub. It was extremely exciting, monstrously tense, and ultimately very depressing. There was no violence in the pub and no violent behaviour afterwards that we saw - everyone just wanted to go home and sob. Elsewhere in the town there were incidents, most of them involving pissed-up squaddies from the barracks.

Is that the case against football, or the case against squaddies?
 
 
w1rebaby
12:32 / 29.05.02
The football experience - at its peak, either dull or involving violent squaddies.

You're not selling this to me really.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:32 / 29.05.02
for "dull", of course, read "depressing"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:43 / 29.05.02
Well, of course I'm not. If you were shit at football at school, you're not going to get into it now. It's clearly not *meant* for you. It's like being bullied at school by giant stupid people tends to put small clever people off becoming games teachers or taking CDT A-levels. Just one of those things.

World football will just have to struggle on without you.
 
 
Dao Jones
13:00 / 29.05.02
[expletive deleted]

Good article in the Indian Express: “What makes football interesting is that it provides one of the few spheres in which ideas about identity, ethnicity and race can be expressed, embodied and performed.” The outcome, the authors maintain could either be the representation of nationhood as ‘a grotesque pageant of fixed archetypes’ or as a ‘carnival’ in which old divisions are breached.

War Minus the Shooting: Just about the only violence which did occur followed the defeat of the English side in their semi-final match against Germany - who eventually beat the Czech Republic to win the tournament. Following the exit from the competition of the England team some clashes occurred in various towns and cities across the country. In Trafalgar Square, where the media reports suggest the worst of the violence happened, German-made cars were attacked and other property identified as German was targeted. It was reported that a Russian man was seriously assaulted by an English crowd who, not minded to distinguish between foreigners, mistook him for a German.

From The Boot Room: In the Low Countries this summer we have had to squirm our way through the unedifying spectacle of badly disciplined young Englishmen, drifting aimlessly and aggressively from match to match, kicking the life out of wary foreigners - all in the name of football.

And that's just the players !

The fans too, at least an uncomfortably large portion of them, have reinforced the negative views the rest of Europe holds against us. So, no change there then.


From Footie 51: The Sun ran a story on 24th June urging the national side to “Blitz Fritz.” Whilst not to be outdone the Mirror’s front page featured the headline, “ACHTUNG! SURRENDER.”

It goes on and on and on. Some people blame the tabloids, others the fans, others the 'patriotism' which surrounds the game. You can't separate them. It's in the interest of those who make money from the game to keep the frenzy high. You can't blame it all on the newspapers, nor does can they evade responsibility entirely.

So no, I'm not dumping on football or 'squaddies' (do feel free to expand on that word, by the way). I'm registering a little skepticism at your unusually uncritical portrait. Have we finally found something you care about? Well, you won't make it better if you sit there and claim everything's fine when it patently isn't.
 
 
Bear
13:21 / 29.05.02
I didn't realise who mad the English went for the world cup, canteen at work has been covered in England flags and they have a wide screen TV now so people can watch the games over lunch, people are making "meeting arrangments" so they can go to the pub to watch.

I'm just looking forward to England getting stuffed
 
 
Fist Fun
13:45 / 29.05.02
Corporate control of entertainment. Violence among young men. Jingoism. They are all problems but they certainly aren't restricted to, or caused by, the beautiful game. Football is a leisure pursuit. A pleasant, trivial pastime.
I remember watching the Scotland v England game in the QM in Glasgow. We were all looking forward to it, but the sheer bile that was thrown at the screen from drunk young people was kind of depressing. Is that football or is that people? For that matter I'm not a complete stranger to bile myself. Who isn't?
 
 
Dao Jones
14:09 / 29.05.02
Corporate control of entertainment. Violence among young men. Jingoism. They are all problems but they certainly aren't restricted to, or caused by, the beautiful game.

You can't separate football from the industries and attitudes which sustain it and proceed from it. In this case, the corporate agenda is served by raising the level of tension regarding the game. That is, in the case of the World Cup, always going to carry and element of nationalism. In the case of the local game (and this is increasingly devoid of any genuine roots in the community - see Wimbledon's move to Milton Keynes) this means fostering an Us vs. Them mentality. The clubs rely on this for funding, the fans require their clubs to do well and hence to hire more expensive players. They players insist on their value. The game itself is not, apparently, enough. Everyone perpetuates the system. In another context - such as the Metropolitan Police - we'd call that institutional racism. In football, apparently, it's good clean fun.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:16 / 29.05.02
Oh, I admit that there are problems, merely that they are not susceptible to a simple sushi-flavoured "o tempura, o morays" cry to the heavens. Especially as, IIRC, there was an admission by the editors of the Sun and the Mirror that they misjudged the public mood badly...

Simply put, what you are objecting to is hoolies. Hoolies are a very, very bad thing. They are violent, they are stupid, and if it were not for football they would find some other reason to be Hoolies. To blame football is a bit like blaming Oakenfold for drunken Brit violence in Ibiza. Football at least is atttempting to keep its house in order because although frenzy is good for corporate interests, violence and hate are not. They devalue the brand and make potentially far more profitable customers turn away in disgust.
 
  

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