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Wahoo ethics

 
 
SMS
02:31 / 27.05.02
How does ethical theory cater to the culture it is in? Does it actually help us become better people or simply act to justify what we already think? If I were to say that it is okay to beat your wives, or to kill Jews if you didn’t like them, or keep slaves, then there isn’t any way that you could prove me logically incorrect. In fact, if you were to gather all the events that have happened since the beginning of the universe, you could not prove that statement false. If I subscribe to an ethical theory, I’ll chose one that does not approve of wife beating, murder, or slavery. This decision is not based upon any theory, but upon the rules of my family, friends, and culture. I form my ethical theory to describe the rules I already believe to be true and try to remain consistent. The rules I already know do not require any theory and the consistency requirement is an aesthetic judgment.

It may be that the only real justification for building an ethical theory is that everyone else is doing it, and you had better be able to defend your views at the coffee table if you don’t want to be able to defend yourself at the coffee table.

Thoughts?
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:03 / 27.05.02
All that you say is true, SMS, but I'm not sure that the point of ethics is to construct a correct system of rules. One might be able to argue that a system of morality derives from sociological concerns, though that can seem harsh.

Actually, I tend to be surprised at the level of agreement that people claim to have with respect to morality. On the whole, this putative agreement isn't born out in practice but it is still there. For instance, consistency or lack of hypocrisy is professed by many.

Isn't the point to convince others that your ethics are "good"?
 
 
Grey Area
08:35 / 28.05.02
In a sense, trying to convince someone that your ethics are good and theirs are not could be seen as not being ethical. It all depends on your particular stance.
 
 
.
12:53 / 28.05.02
RE: there being no way to counter ethical positions opposed to one's own with logic...

This does not imply that there is no (logical) theory behind one's own ethical positions, or that the logic that there is is used merely to back up ethical theories formed by convention. Doesn't it seem more accurate to say that we all have some moral intuitions that are prior to the rules of our family/ friends/ culture, and we then use logic to build on and defend these intuitions? If all ethical points of view were based exclusively on one's cultural conditioning it fails to explain the persuasive nature of moral theories. By this I mean that one's moral opinions tend to have a certain epistemic force of "being right, and being good", that other opinions (based on cultural factors) do not have. People just don't seem to think that ethical opinions are arbitrary.

Obviously this could turn into an argument about epistemology... What do we make of things that we just have to believe are true? (Like believing one exists, believing that one has free will etc). Things that we can create metaphysical arguments as to their truth or falsity either way, but in everyday epistemic terms cannot help but believe. Are there statements of which we genuinely cannot believe the opposite to be (actually, not just possibly) true?
 
 
alas
01:06 / 29.05.02
I think I'm agreeing with LA's poiint; the idea of a "true" ethics strikes me as the problem: ethics aren't a matter of "truth" or "falsity" but of value, even, though this may sound crass, utility. What kind of culture do you want to create? What kind of ethics will foster that sort of culture?

(I'm not sure what "wahoo" means; it's not supposed to be "yahoo" as in gulliver's travels, is it?)
 
 
SMS
03:19 / 29.05.02
The title of this topic, “Wahoo ethics,” suggests a stronger point than one I am actually making. I probably do this more often than I should, but the idea of the title is that I present an ethical theory that says you can do {x, y, z} and that others cannot do {a, b, c}. So you cheer (and say Wahoo) because you’ve always wanted to do {x, y, z} and always wanted to tell others they cannot do {a, b, c}. The point that the topic title suggests is that we just choose the ethical theory that happens to fit our whim or our desires.

That is overly simplistic, of course, because there are any number of factors that contribute to what we feel ought to be encouraged, permitted, discouraged, or forbidden. Biological, personal, and cultural factors all contribute, but the basic idea is still the same. It can hardly be reduced to whim and desire.

iivix: This does not imply that there is no (logical) theory behind one's own ethical positions, or that the logic that there is is used merely to back up ethical theories formed by convention. Doesn't it seem more accurate to say that we all have some moral intuitions that are prior to the rules of our family/ friends/ culture, and we then use logic to build on and defend these intuitions?

I think that people do have logical ethical theories underlying their beliefs about what is good and right, but I don’t think we have any evidence suggesting that human beings have moral intuitions prior to the rules of those around us. It is difficult to test, given that we are exposed to these outside influences from our birth, but there are indications that we are not born with these intuitions. Children who have not been shown love and affection from very early ages can develop serious pathologies that often lead to violence well beyond the realm of anything you or I would consider reasonable. I don’t know whether the intuition underlying the rules (as opposed to the theory underlying the rules) preceded the rules themselves. I don’t even think that they can be easily distinguished. In fact, I’m not sure whether the question of causality between ethical intuition and rules can be made coherent. However, they both precede the ethical theorizing that goes on here.

If all ethical points of view were based exclusively on one's cultural conditioning it fails to explain the persuasive nature of moral theories. By this, I mean that one's moral opinions tend to have a certain epistemic force of "being right, and being good", that other opinions (based on cultural factors) do not have. People just don't seem to think that ethical opinions are arbitrary.

These theories, I think, are persuasive because they seem to explain a reason for moral beliefs. They seem to. That’s not the same as actually doing so. If I believe in the set {x, y, z} above, for whatever reason, then a theory that implies these beliefs will, to me, seem to confirm them. But I could come up with a theory to imply nearly any set of beliefs. It seems to confirm them, but in fact, does nothing.
 
 
the Fool
06:30 / 29.05.02
I tend to think ethics, in regard to how your actions relate to others, has a lot to do with empathy. Or, the ability to percieve how a particular action effects another.

Thus ethics could be seen to have a logical basis. The basis being a knowledge of how particular actions effect others and how they affect you. Whether actions bring others pleasure or pain, and your ability to percieve this pleasure or pain in others and your own experience of these feelings.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:59 / 29.05.02
Aren't ethics about our interactions with others? So that trying to separate ethics from society is a tricky business.

One way to look at ethics is from a sociological, utilitarian, evolutionary perspective. There is an argument that whatever common morality we may have derives from a species wide "desire" for some sort of common good. That is very badly expressed, since I don't want to imply any intelligent mechanism that steers morality or decides what is good for us as a species. I'm thinking more along the lines that, evolutionarily speaking, a species whose members fuck themselves over the whole time isn't going to be very successful. Hence, successful species develop rudimentary ethics.

I'm not sure how powerful that argument really is - I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. However, I've read about experiments that demonstrate a consistent and very strong feeling against "liars" and "cheaters". Loads of you will also have seen those tests which probe our understanding of logic - people are much more successful at them if the question is phrased in terms of some social gain or loss.

If this model is correct - and it can only provide a simple basis for common morality - then you might ask why any of us steal, cheat, kill etc. Interestingly, IIRC there are game theory analyses that try to model interactions of a large number of "players" that make up "teams". The questions I'm thinking of, look at getting individual players strategies for maximising gain while at the same time having a feedback for team success. Ie. each player tries to maximise gain, but if the team does shit then so do all the players.

One of the naturally occurring strategies is for everyone to play fair and cooperate with other players, unless screwed first, with the exception of a few individuals who regularly screw everyone.
 
 
SMS
23:29 / 29.05.02
But where does this leave ethical theory? Does that have a legitimate purpose?
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:31 / 30.05.02
What does 'legitimate' mean? It's as legitimate as any theory - nice to talk about if you're into that sort of thing; if it improves your life, great; otherwise, whatever.
 
 
.
20:58 / 30.05.02
Well I won't deny that convention often does have an effect on one's beliefs, and I'm sure that includes ethical beliefs. But that does not mean that there can be no moral intuitions prior to that process. After all, there are some things that we do seem to have intuitions about, so why not morality too?

Perhaps it is convention that has meant that certain people in society (ie. philosophers) "unlearn" moral intuitions, through the culture of questioning. Much as I love philosophy, sometimes I wonder how healthy the constant questioning is... There comes a point where I can undermine the foundations of virtually everything I once believed to be true, but the question is- were my original intuitions invalid, or have pushed logic too far and destroyed valid intuitions?
 
 
SMS
03:13 / 31.05.02
When I talk about ethical theory, I'm thinking about the kind of philosophy that requires higher thinking. When I talk about ethics themselves, I'm probably thinking about the rules that make up ethics, although I might be talking about behaviour.

What does 'legitimate' mean?

Beyond a fun game we play. I'm not saying games aren't legitimate, but I think ethical theory usually claims to be more than this. It claims to be a determining factor between right and wrong.

I'm beginning to tbink that it has no claim to this at all.

It may be, as Lurid Archive suggested, that the whole point is just to convince others; that we use it as a means of spreading our rules across the land (by putting them in a nice, convenient package). alas suggested that ethics were, in part, a matter of utility. Now, I'm not sure whether he meant the behaviour or the framework for the rules of behaviour. It certainly is true that people need to avoid certain things if we're going to survive. That would be behaviour.

But I'm interested in the idea that we theorize for the sake of usefulness. I can think of two functions. One is to speed up individual decision making. The other is to build a more uniform culture by spreading one set of right and wrong values to all the people we want to think of as "us."
 
 
Saveloy
12:11 / 31.05.02
Dunno if this is what you're after but - isn't pain the one universal here, the fundamental starting point for most moral/ethical structures, because our actions can cause or relieve pain? Gets a bit complicated with mental or emotional pain, but physical pain is universally experienced and universally considered bad (except under certain very specific conditions), yeah?
 
  
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