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Homosexuality and Pro Sports

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08:52 / 23.05.02

(NY Mets') "Mike Piazza denies rumor as gay player issue resurfaces "

excerpt:
There are still no homosexuals in baseball.

Not officially, anyway.

A gossip column in Monday's New York Post repeated what it called "a persistent rumor around town that one Mets star who spends a lot of time with pretty models in clubs is actually gay and has started to think about declaring his sexual orientation."

If so, the unnamed star apparently is still thinking about it.

Because the only Mets star who declared anything Tuesday was Mike Piazza, and he said, "I'm not gay. I'm heterosexual."

For a ballplayer to acknowledge otherwise, of course, would be committing professional suicide.

Last summer, the editor-in-chief of Out, the nation's largest-circulation gay magazine, claimed to be having an affair with a pro baseball player "from a major-league East Coast franchise" whose life would be improved considerably if he disclosed his homosexuality

"I have concluded," Brendan Lemon wrote, "that coming out would, on balance, lessen his psychic burden. Sure, he'd have to deal with the initial media avalanche and the verbal abuse of some bleacher bums, and there'd be a teammate or two who'd have an adolescent 'Oh, my God, he saw me naked in the showers' response. Not to mention a nervous front-office executive or two.

"But I'm pretty confident," the editor continued, "there'd be more support from the team than he imagines."

You have to wonder what planet Lemon is on. Much as we might like to think locker rooms have changed in these enlightened times, experience tells us otherwise.

Well, what do y'all think? If the player came out, would (as the Out editor put it) have his life improve considerably? Or would it not only be career suicide (the article states that the only out ballplayers were shortly blackballed after they came out)? Or worse, would they have to fear for their safety?

Here's another thing I'm wondering. Is there a difference coming out in an individual sport vs. a team sport? Of the gay athletes I can think of off hand (Greg Louganis, Marina Navitolova, Arthur Ashe), none of them are from team sports. Well unless you count doubles tennis. So why is it there's no gay athletes in Basketball or Hockey or Women's Soccer?

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:36 / 23.05.02

Arthur Ashe gay? Crikey.

I would offer - I can never remember his name, but he is an Australian Rugby international, who is out and has apparently had very few problems, since anyone on the oposition team trying homophobic abuse will immediately have over a dozen gigantic Wallabies descend like the wrath of god. Curious example of it being better to be on the inside of the rugby club pissing out...of course, the fact that the man is a man-monster probably helps.

Conversely, Justin Fashanu, who by all accounts was the more talented by some distance of the Fashanu brothers (the other of whom played at the highest level in English football for many years) came out, and was subsequently shuffled up to Scotland, sacked for attempting to sell a story about sleeping with Michael Portillo (?), and ended up hanging himself in a lock-up in London after being accused of molesting one of the boys he was coaching in America. I suspect that this was in part a result of very bad decisions on his part, but he seemed to suffer ostracism (does anyone have clearer memories of this?).

There is, certainly in football, a basic suspicion of all otherness, which is why Graeme le Saux (Guardian reader, collects antiques) is nicknamed "rent boy" and Pat Nevin was once fined for visiting an art gallery.

10:46 / 23.05.02

I'd say that the life of the player wouldn't be improved. To paraphrase the end of the article, much as we like to think we live in enlightened times, reality is often a different thing.

While I am at a loss to offer an explanation why, the masses have this perception of their (male) team players as a bunch of "good 'ol boys" who are clean-cut and reassuring in their masculinity. This is especially applied to those players engaged in team sports where you have to engage others, comparable to throwing gladiators into the arena. Here we have the image that only a "real" man would survive, and the masses still do not equate (and probably never really will)their mental image of homosexual males with those of "real" men. If one of these men, for instance the un-named baseball player in the article, decides to come out, the masses feel gypped, and their reaction is generally hostile. No-one likes having the wool pulled over their eyes, especially sports fans who worship their good 'ol boys and the values they have come to represent.

Why does it seem to be different for solo players? Maybe because here we have the image of the loner, the person who is different from the outset for not "playing with the team". With this as a background, we can more easily accept the idea of this person having an alternative sexuality, because they were different to begin with. Then again, I remember the reaction of my parents when Martina Navratilova came out. It wasn't very positive, and remains so to this day. To be honest I don't think it is any easier for solo players to come out, in fact it may even be harder because of the fact that they do not have the potential support of a team behind them, as with the australian rugby player mentioned by Haus.

In the end, my view would be that popular sports cater to the masses, and the masses do not want to be confronted with controversial topics when they're out to enjoy themselves. Anything that can be seen as a threat to their enjoyment and the image of the sport they have decided to support will be cut down, either by themselves or the managers of the teams.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:22 / 23.05.02

Well...yes....except that (to stay on football, as it is not only the only sport I know but also the only competitive team experience I have ever accepted as being properly a sport) supporters cheer for players who have driven drunk, performed common assault in nightclubs, beaten their wives, punched their girlfriends in the face in bars...

Is it that homosexuality is less forgivable than criminality? Or that these are more identifiable with by the average member of "the mass"? And are we not back on "the mass/the herd/the common scum"? Is what matters how the fans react or how the player's teammates/sporting establishment react?

11:49 / 23.05.02

Unfortunately, homosexuality does seem to be less forgiveable than criminality. When players are caught driving drunk etc., the media and public cry "Shame!", the player is punished and promises never to do it again, very sorry, yadda-yadda etc...half a year later everything is forgotten unless the media has to pillory the player again. In a perverse way, any criminal behaviour on the player's part might even be seen to reinforce their maleness.

Homosexuality however, because it is ingrained into the person's psyche cannot be erased by a simple apology or a fine/prison sentence. Supporters are always ready to offer excuses for criminal behaviour (accompanied by a "but it's still wrong" of course), but the concept of homosexuality is so alien to the majority of heterosexual fans that the player is forever marked, no matter how good they would be on the field.

The way the fans react is of course key in this matter, as it is partly the fans who boost a players reputation and the player's reputation creates the club's reputation.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:53 / 23.05.02

I'm broadly in favour of homosexuality.

I'm still conflicted on the issue of pro-sports. I just don't know whether all this running around being energetic and healthy for money is the kind of example we should be setting the children.

I think these people should be asking themselves very serious questions about the morality of conflating 'sport' with the megabucks wage-slavery system.

More relevant, a huge effort has been made in the UK to 'clean up' pro football (soccer) - to take issue with racism and so on. A similar shunt is probably long overdue regarding homosexuality. On the other hand, I seem to remember an interview with one footballer who came out and was amazed to discover that no one cared.

12:14 / 23.05.02

This interview would make interesting reading. Any idea which player it was about or where it appeared?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:22 / 23.05.02

God, it was months ago. Sorry.

12:24 / 23.05.02

Arthur Ashe was straight.
Arthur Ashe died of AIDS contracted through a blood transfusion.

The error, however, is telling.

13:18 / 23.05.02

From the article:

The most encouraging thing about the whole episode is how little attention it's generated. Reporters who questioned Mets general manager Steve Phillips got this answer: "If statistics hold up, in every clubhouse there is somebody who is gay. So what? Who cares?"

...Piazza, like Phillips and Valentine, said he doesn't think a player acknowledging his homosexuality would find himself being ostracized.

"In this day and age it would be irrelevant," Piazza said. "If the guy is doing his job on the field ... I don't think there would be any problem at all."

Too bad "WHO CARES?" isn't on the back cover of every daily paper in NYC this morning, because it's closer to how most of us feel about it here. He's a really good player and very, very popular with New Yorkers (even Yankees fans have to give him props, however begrudgingly). As long as he keeps playing well, his sex life is his business.

The media, of course, disagree. I suspect Brendan Lemon is capitalizing on Piazza's popularity with NYC's gay population to sell issues. (The boys here *love* Mike – whenever a Mets game is televised at my local pub, the place is packed with men going on and on and on about how fine Piazza is

) The gay press here has a time-honored tradition of attempting to "out" celebrities, and this is just another example.

13:24 / 23.05.02

I would like to see The Sun's headline if Beckham or the likes turns out to be homosexual. It'd be interesting to see how the tabloids would react, seeing as they have a scaring control over a lot of peoples' attitudes.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:58 / 23.05.02

The way the fans react is of course key in this matter, as it is partly the fans who boost a players reputation and the player's reputation creates the club's reputation.

I think that's incomplete, or more precisely naive. Fan reaction to a player can affect a) morale of the team dressing room and b) mental state of the player, and thus team and individual performances. It can also sway c) boadroom opinion and bring d) presure on the manager. A fan boycott will increase that pressure - for example, when Aston Villa's gates last year dipped partly because they were playing grindingly awful football but partly because that had inspired a stay-away campaign against their grindingly awful football. Where a gay player might harm a team is merchandise sales.

However, I think e) pressure from the players and f) the preexistent attitude of the manager would be more important - few boardrooms would risk a "I walked because they told me to accept 3m bid for QUEER-on Dyer" scandal, especially as a PLC team would then be absolutely in the shit with its stockholders, who expect investment in the playing staff to be rewarded either with value-added selling-on or on-field delivery....

I think the main question in most cases would be the sponsors, not the fans, although the two are connected in the complete ecosphere.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:07 / 23.05.02

Arthur Ashe was straight.
Arthur Ashe died of AIDS contracted through a blood transfusion.

The error, however, is telling.

This was precisely what I was trying to nudge Margin Walker politely about.

14:52 / 23.05.02

Damn - I *know* I researched up a couple gay-and-out pro football players (American) a couple years back, but can't even remember the teams.

Individual sports, overall, seem to be less agressive - they involve less physical contact (at least the ones you describe: tennis, diving, swimming), and so less opportunity for the swift caress.

15:20 / 23.05.02

Who is and who isn't? Is Justin Fashanu the only gay or bisexual player to have come out? Their are lots of rumours surrounding the current Arsenal team, Sol Campbell especially, but I can't think of any others who are out.

The short career span starting off and pretty much finishing at a young age probably has something to do with it. Tony Adams is an interesting case. Started off a loutish young footballer. Throughout his twenties money, women, infidelity, alcohol abuse, prison sentence now at 36 he is an ex-alcoholic, ex-husband, likes poetry and long walks in the country.

01

15:39 / 23.05.02

I can't stand Piazza to begin with, so initially when I heard this story on the radio the other night I started laughing hysterically. Mr. Big Bad New York Met: Outed. Ha! However, the whole thing does raise some prety important questions. On the radio the commentator asked the question, "Is Major League Baseball ready for a gay player? Call in."

My answer is definitely yes. Of course there would be a media circus, and probably some sound bites of John Rockerness from some other players but overall the hype would eventually die down. However, a superstar coming out of the closet would have to take place in baseball first before any other sport. I can't see football, hockey or soccer being as open minded.
Although hold on, wait a second. Wasn't Wendell Clark of the Toronto Maple Leafs openly gay? Or was that just an urban myth?

17:53 / 23.05.02

Haus: I picked up on that, yes. But it seemed to me that subtlety was not what was called for. Big fucking hammers. That's the kind of mood I'm in today. Big fucking hammers.

06:39 / 24.05.02

This is the man that the boys love?!

13:12 / 24.05.02

%I cannot be held responsible for the sexual tastes of my fellow Park Slope queers.%

19:51 / 24.05.02

Haus wrote: I think the main question in most cases would be the sponsors, not the fans, although the two are connected in the complete ecosphere.

I think Haus (an the rest of you) made a lot of good points, but I think this is what it really comes down to. After mulling it over, I realized that most of the athletes with big endorsement contracts are from team sports. A player might choose to stay in the closet just to keep the sponsors happy & the checks rolling in. Which is why I think it'd be easier to come out if your sport was something with money involved like, say, discus throwing versus some big-money team sports like basketball. The athlete wouldn't have to worry about being beholdened to anybody about their "image".

Speaking of image, here's another thing I've been wondering: would it be easier to come out as a lesbian than as a gay man? I'm willing to say yes because of the notion that "lesbian=butch" or aggressive--something of an asset in sports. In which case, who's going to complain? Most women couldn't give a shit about sports in the first place. As for the men, well a stroll to the adult video store will quickly dispell the idea that lesbians are somehow unpopular with hetero men. Conversly, the hetero notion of "gay=femme" undermines the male athletes street cred and would be less accepted in the largely hetero world of sports.

And speaking of repercussions, I don't think most players would have too much problem coming out. That is to say, nothing compared to guys like Jackie Robinson (the first black dude to play pro baseball) or Hank Aaron (who got death threats when it looked like he was going to break Babe Ruth's home run record). But the cynic in me is still sceptical. I can't imagine an out running back in football is going to get the best blocking in the world or that a hockey player isn't going to get checked harder or more often than another player.

A

06:27 / 25.05.02

The Australian football player is Ian Roberts, who came out publically about 5 years ago, or so, and did so by appearing naked in the first issue of a gay magazine. (incedentally, he plays Rugby League, not Rugby Union, so that would make him a Kangaroo, rather than a Wallaby).

I don't follow the football at all, really, but I'm pretty sure that his coming out had no negative effect on his career at all, and actually turned him into a bit of a media personality. As far as i know he's still playing, but some folks here would probably know more about the current state of football than I do.

A

06:29 / 25.05.02

there's an Ian Roberts website -
here

07:17 / 25.05.02

More Piazza Pics Here

13:10 / 25.05.02

part of the reason i stopped going to see (men's) football was the appalling homophobia. i didn't see justin fashanu play but i do clearly remember his brother john suffering verbal abuse by arsenal fans - guilt by association - during a game. it stopped when he bent over and waved his arse at them. taking the piss out of his own brother, it appeared (who he'd disowned by then). it was horrible.

the atmosphere at games - i recall spurs fans making a *massive* song and dance about a 'poof' in the qpr terrace. they knew he was a poof because he was wearing a pink jacket - makes it clear to me that no one in their right mind would come out if they played football in england. i can't say for other sports, but i suspect it would be a bad deal too. remember the treatment navratilova got when she came out/was outed?

14:19 / 25.05.02

they knew he was a poof because he was wearing a pink jacket

Man, that's nuts. Speaking of which, it reminds me of the time Homer Simpson is judged insane because he showed up at work wearing a pink shirt.

makes it clear to me that no one in their right mind would come out if they played football in england.

I take it soccer riots aren't enough of a deterrent?

SFD, can you elaborat on Navrotilova's outing? The way you put it, it sounds like she was pushed out of the closet rather than came out on her own accord. As you can tell by the Arthur Ashe misunderstanding, I'm not exacly in the loop where tennis is concerned....

14:33 / 25.05.02

for the life of me, i can't remember if navratilova came out or was pushed out of the closet. i don't think she made a big effort to conceal her sexuality and there was a court case involving a former g/f which of course made big news. i do remember though, the talk - both in the media and in tennis circles - that she should not be allowed to play tennis with women, that she should be playing with the men instead.

which brings to mind the match billie jean king played - and won - against a male player who sneered at female players. go billie!

14:44 / 25.05.02

Well, I go to football every week and I have never seen any huge amount of homophobia in the terraces. Part of the fun is taking the piss out of players and opposing fans, and if someone sticks out a bit ... haircut, nationality, habit of diving, been in the paper for drugs then they are going to get some comments shouted out, but most people are just interested in the football. What team do you support SFD?

14:58 / 25.05.02

unfortunately, my family have always supported queens park rangers, so i am rather stuck with them! but i spent a lot of time at arsenal matches, and at non-league games (wealdstone and harrow borough mainly). basically i found homophobic references usually thrown at anyone who was considered 'weak', or else they had 'she fell over' chanted at them. nothing more pathetic than a woman, huh? there were certain regulars who spent every saturday afternoon screaming that everyone in the opposing team was a poof, seriously, almost non-stop. i think beckham's a refreshing character - he appears to be very non-macho, doesn't give a shit if gay men fancy him. the press loves him too, perhaps it's easier because of his 'hetero' credentials; if he'd worn a sarong while being openly gay, what would the reaction be then?

15:30 / 25.05.02

Beckham is a really good example. I know a lot of people who think he is a great player but really aren't interested in all the showbiz hype. Now he gets some stick for his taste in clothes, glam lifestyle, etc and it fills up the tabloids but no football fan really cares. If a player did come out it would probably be the same. They would get some stick form opposing fans, but that happens anyway it just means they have something else to latch on to rather than nationality or haircut or whatever...and then things would carry on, they would be judged on their playing ability.

05:05 / 26.05.02

Let's take any old sporting competition, say the super 12, because the maths is easier. With fifteen a side, that makes one hundred and eighty strapping young men taking the field every week.
The ten percent rule means that eighteen of them have another ball sport they also enjoy, besides the one that they get paid for.
And, where are they? Forced into a closet, yes. But, the question is, by who? Themselves. Nobody is making them stay there but them. You can say "opressive heterocentric system" till you're blue in the face, and you know what? I don't care for it. It's a convenient excuse for
(1) fags to remain too scared to act
(2) the teams to change their politics.

Q- what do you call a rubgy player with no balls?
A- this name cannot be supplied at this time, pending the outcome of a libel trial.

So, I don't feel sorry for the fags in sport who don't come out. I mean, yeah, HELL YEAH it's going to be tough, but maybe not as much as you think. And, hell yeah, it might mean you lose your job, standing or whatever.
But, you get to be the "Poitier", the one who starts the ball rolling, the one who changes things, so that it doesn't have to be that way. Right now, it's like this because it's like this, because it's like this.
Fuck this. Fuck making excuses for the gutless.

05:06 / 26.05.02

Let's take any old sporting competition, say the super 12, because the maths is easier. With fifteen a side, that makes one hundred and eighty strapping young men taking the field every week.
The ten percent rule means that eighteen of them have another ball sport they also enjoy, besides the one that they get paid for.
And, where are they? Forced into a closet, yes. But, the question is, by who? Themselves. Nobody is making them stay there but them. You can say "opressive heterocentric system" till you're blue in the face, and you know what? I don't care for it. It's a convenient excuse for
(1) fags to remain too scared to act
(2) the teams to change their politics.

Q- what do you call a rubgy player with no balls?
A- this name cannot be supplied at this time, pending the outcome of a libel trial.

So, I don't feel sorry for the fags in sport who don't come out. I mean, yeah, HELL YEAH it's going to be tough, but maybe not as much as you think. And, hell yeah, it might mean you lose your job, standing or whatever.
But, you get to be the "Poitier", the one who starts the ball rolling, the one who changes things, so that it doesn't have to be that way. Right now, it's like this because it's like this, because it's like this.
Fuck this. Fuck making excuses for the gutless.

05:25 / 26.05.02

Im so glad that was posted twice. I couldn't believe I was reading it the first time.

None of us can possibly imagine what Jackie Robinson went through when he broke the color barrier. Every time he took the field he was booed. By the home fans. His own teammates signed a petition to keep him out of the league for christs sake. The guy that came over and shook his hand in the middle of the infield? He had signed the petition too.

Just based on the way my co workers talk I can imagine a gay man facing many of the same things.

And yeah, you might get to be the one that breaks the barrier. History books and a spot in a museum. Yay. How does that compensate for death threats, name calling and people spitting in you face? It can't. And its made worse by the fact that whoever the gay player is, he is probably going to be outed by others rather than on his own terms.

Excuses for the gutless? Thats just fucking ignorant, Bro.

05:52 / 26.05.02

not even.
How would we be better off if Jackie Robinson had said "it's too tough?", that's my point. We're in a better position because he wasn't gutless. And, now it's time for gay men to do it too. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying that by thinking all the bad things that'll happen and not doing it, there is a kind of gutlessness that eats away at you. Did you come out? Do you remember what you put yourself through? I do. Are we all better off for it? Yes, we sure are.

07:10 / 26.05.02

Sure, were all better off when someone comes along and breaks down barriers. I just think its crap to call someone "gutless" because they are unable or unwilling to take that hit for the rest of us. I imagine coming out is a very personal decision and it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing you should chastise someone for doing (or not doing).

Im sure that when you came out it wasn't to 5 million drunk Mets fans.

09:06 / 26.05.02

mikebro> Yeah, anyone that gutless would have to be some kinda HOMO wouldn't they, sport? You ARE parodying the macho, judgmental attitudes that cause people to keep quiet in the first place, aren't you?

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