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Porn Free: Attitudes to Pornography

 
  

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Ethan Hawke
16:00 / 16.05.02
If porn is less connected to sex than one would at first imagine, then what about masturbation? At first blush, disconnecting masturbation from sex seems ridiculous; however, I think a case could be made for masturbation as a qualitatively different act than sex with a partner(s). Specifically, masturbation can be construed as sort of a "hygenic" act, akin to blowing one's nose, shitting, or eating. Sexual orientation, w/r/t to an individuals choice of sex partners/acts, is almost besides the point when discussing masturbation, especially masturbation prompted by the visual stimuli of porn. One can get turned on by images of things one wouldn't necessarily have a sexual response to if confronted with in real life (e.g., ostensibly straight men experiencing arousal when confronted with the image of an erect penis in porn.) Porn used as an aid to masturbation is more akin to say, a fork or knife than it is to another human partner.

Obviously, there are a lot of ways to attack this thumbnail argument (which anyone may do; i'll try to fit objections into my thesis), but if we're to seperate what is seen as an aid to wanking from sex, which wanking is traditionally a part of, then maybe we can take wanking along with it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:20 / 16.05.02
Now you're just being silly.

Yeah, its the double negative that threw me. Plus I tend to think that arguable implies arguable for, but thats just me.

Ok. Your response tends to frame my analysis as an analysis of absolutes, when it certainly was not intended as one. My opening paragraph of that post was intended to offset that brand of criticism.

Your post plays with the concept that I confuse reality and representation. This leads you to make implications about softcore narratives and my supposed adoption of the values embodied in them. I'm left unsure as to whether you actually believe that to be my position or whether this is a rhetorical device intended to undermine my argument by misrepresentation.

I find it ironic that your response relies heavily on associating me with an unsophisticated consumer, whose opinions of women are sexist and simplistic. In essence, I am the dirty old man.

So for instance,

porn is about sex on one end and masturbation at the other

rather implies that I believe the model or author to be an active sexual participant. Perhaps I have implied this myself. I can't see where, but I'm happy to retract it if I have.

Also interesting is the theme in your posts is about the separation of pornography and sexuality. I'm using the word pornography to mean an image or story that is intended to cause sexual arousal. If one separates it from sex entirely, one is left with nudity and descriptions of nudity - perhaps not even that. I don't say that porn is sex, I simply say that porn is sexual. Its purpose, and its characterising feature, is an intended sexual response.

To say that objections to pornography are not based on sexuality is to seriously mislead. You don't quite say that, but your ungenerous interpretation of my argument can only be honestly made in this way. An objection to a pornographic potrayal is an objection to a sexual stereotype, for instance. This can be perfectly valid and may not involve some denigration of the male masturbator. I never said it did. Specific pieces of porn may well be distasteful, but to claim that this is divorced from sexual attitudes seems misguided.

So porn *is* sex? No. No more than masturbation *is* sex. But it is sexual. And I am as wary of someone dismissing, wholesale, the former as I am the latter.

I am, of course, taking pornography in its widest possible sense. You are not, and this may be causing some misunderstanding between us.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:13 / 16.05.02
Well, yes. Because "what is porn?" is a very big question, and one deserving its own thread. Which is why, in turn, the topic abstract specifies softcore het boy porn. Does nobody *ever* read those things. In answer to your happiness to retract....um...


I always feel that this sort of discussion is coloured by the notion that sexual acts are base and sordid.


That kind of identifies porn with sexual acts. Especially as later it transpires that sexually liberated women use porn, and thus by implication sexually non-liberated woem do not. The porn, the sex. The sex, the porn.

Which, again, is why softcore is more interesting, because it does not feature sexual acts, but something else - sexual metonyms, possibly, or coded sexual indicators.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:03 / 16.05.02
What is porn may be a big question but haven't I provided a definition? Argue with it if you will.

As to my happiness to retract. Well... if you want to flirt, then do so. If you want to tell me I am talking shit, then do that. Don't confuse my already dented self esteem by doing both and neither. It just isn't fair to a boy.

As to,

I always feel that this sort of discussion is coloured by the notion that sexual acts are base and sordid.

That kind of identifies porn with sexual acts

No it doesn't. It says that the discussion is coloured by the notion that sexual acts are sordid. I'm really not sure how to say that more clearly in a way that doesn't confuse porn and sexual acts. If you understand what I'm saying, then feel free to come up with your own wording. If you don't, then just speak up.

Question: Is there any correlation between sexually liberated women and those who masturbate? None at all, you say? I'm a cad for suggesting it? Oh I see.
 
 
Gibreel
03:08 / 17.05.02
Regarding the whole soft-porn-models-given-realworld-jobs thing. Doesn't this cut both ways?
1. It allows the porn user to construct the act of porn consumption and masturbation as normal (i.e. not sick/perverted/etc - not that I am suggesting that it is BTW). These are 'ordinary' girls behaving as 'sluts'.
2. It also allows the porn user to fantasise about the realworld in the same way - e.g. Jane the office secretary could be a 'dirty' porn model in her spare time - hey presto, instant wank fantasy.

Isn't this culturally specific? From what I understand, UK porn prefers the 'girl-next-door' image and low quality, 'dirty' hardcore films. Whereas the US prefers professional models and higher production values.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:21 / 17.05.02
Actually I don't know that we shouldn't be looking towards gay male porn as a test case here - a control group so to speak. Is gay porn degrading to men as a gender? If so then it's not so much a relationship of power that's the problem - because with men on both side of the equation there can be no gender that is oppressing. And what is the relationship between gay men and porn stars?

The question then seems to me to be more about the relationship between the genders generally rather than the relationship between consumers and stars of porn films. Is there a differential in power intrinsic to the medium or is it acting as a focus for societal anxieties and inequalities?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:10 / 17.05.02
Gib - agree completely.

Tom - very good question, and something I was thinking of moving the convo onto. Power relationships in porn, anyone?

Lurid - Your definition of "porn" is finely fine as far as it goes. As it says in the topic abstract, this is not a "what is porn?" discussion, as softcore het boy porn can very easily be located through its positioning at purchase points. Your association of "sexual liberation" is only tangentially with female masturbation (because this is also not a "do women wank? What, really?" thread, but a porn thread), but that association is explciitly, in terms of the thread, with the use of pornography. Or, to put it another way: You. Argue. That. The. Use. Of. Porn. Is. A. Signifier. Of. Female. Sexual. Liberation. And. By. Implication. That. Failure. To. Use. Porn. Makes. The. Ascription. Of. Sexual. Repression. Easier.

No it doesn't. It says that the discussion is coloured by the notion that sexual acts are sordid.

And if that does not associate porn with sexual acts, then why exactly is that an issue? Why should it matter if sexual acts are perceived as *anything*? One might suggest instead that the discussion is coloured by the notion that porn is sordid. Which it no doubt is.

For the record, I am neither flirting with you nor telling you that you are talking shit. I'm suggesting that you are failing to examine the concepts underpinning your statements, and am being interested by the correlation between your argumentation and the pornographic narrative.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:20 / 17.05.02
Tom: I agree about gay porn as forming an interesting test case. It doesn't usually get used because of homophobia and, IMO, the difficulty in claiming that porn is inherently sordid. I probably shouldn't talk too much about gay porn since, according to the abstract, I am off topic again.

haus: hehehe.

"You. Argue. That. The. Use. Of. Porn. Is. A. Signifier. Of. Female. Sexual. Liberation. And. By. Implication. That. Failure. To. Use. Porn. Makes. The. Ascription. Of. Sexual. Repression. Easier."

Yes, thats a bit fairer. I don't think that being more patronising really conceals the fact that you have taken a step back. A signifier is not an absolute guaranteed equivalence.

My point is simply that attitudes to sex affect the discussion of pornography. Many women are uncomfortable with their sexuality and have strong feelings of guilt associated to it. This is relevant when considering the debate.

Similarly, (het) men tend to objectify women. The roots of this are unclear, and may be to do with some sexual insecurity. They also tend to have a deep rooted shame of their own sexuality and often mask inadequacy with bravado.

I think that these feelings form a subtext to the debate about pornography. Listen carefully. I'm not saying that sex and porn are the same, but that the attitudes to the former affect the latter. Associating sex with porn, yes. Identifying them? no. The use of porn *is* a sexual act.

Put it another way. What is your sex free definition of porn?

But if that is off topic then fair enough. Motivations are beyond our scope? I didn't realise that this was intended to be a self satisfied bash at those het boys and their porn.

But this is interesting,
One might suggest instead that the discussion is coloured by the notion that porn is sordid. Which it no doubt is.

Porn is sordid? Yes, that has been your line. Your responses to me have been in the main an attempt at besmirching me with the image of a user of porn. The inevitability of objectification and sexism are a central theme. Is the fact that I don't see this causal link another attribute of my "failing to examine the concepts underpinning (my) statements".

The thing you really take issue with is the association of liberation and use of pornography. The fact that pornography in the main is used to refer neccessarily sexist het images is telling in itself. I use the word as I've said I use the word.

Someone who will not consider looking at a image or reading a text that may induce sexual stimulation is likely to have feelings of guilt associated with sex. A bit of a generalisation, I know. But your characterisation of my opinion as a thoughtless piece of misogyny isn't designed to further debate. It is an attempt to demonise and hence silence me. Something you do very well, BTW. It is a pleasure to watch.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:37 / 17.05.02
I'm sorry, Lurid, but you don't actually seem to be able to read closely enough to have this discussion at a level which makes it profitable for us to waste our time dealing with your defensive personal digs.

For the record, however, I do not think you are a misogynist. Better now?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:19 / 17.05.02
Although, just to deal with a little "besmirching":


The thing you really take issue with is the association of liberation and use of pornography.


No.

I take issue with the fact that you are moving between "liberation" and "sexual liberation". And the fact that, as I have said consistently (while still, amazingly, taking a step back. Like Moonwalking), you apply this to *women*. The idea that use of pornography is also a signifier of male liberation is, if that is what you are trying to express above, a new one.

Therefore, female disapproval of porn can generally be attributed, as you so kindly state explicitly in your latest post, to women being "uncomfortable with their sexuality and having strong feelings of guilt associated with it". On account of their lack of liberation. And thus their repression.

Just out of interest, if any women, uncomfortable with their sexuality and having strong feelings of guilt associated with it or otherwise, care to share their feelings, I think it would be very interesting.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:54 / 17.05.02
haus: I guess I was taking exception at the notion that my opinions fit into a porn narrative. Those narratives contain some pretty sexist assumptions and so by implication I shared those. I assumed you set up this implication deliberately. Apologies if this was not the case.

I also don't think that disapproval of exploitative, stereotypical images is a sign of repression. I think that, say, refusal to read Anais Nin for reasons of distaste might be. Male repression tends to express itself differently.

If you don't feel its worth continuing, though, thats fair enough. I have been reading closely, I'm just obviously getting a different impression from the one you intended. My "defensive personal digs" were certainly not calculated to cause offence.
 
 
alas
03:28 / 22.05.02
I think Lurid's points are worth considering, and also, actually, that Haus's narrative of Lurid's stance (which is its own kind of creative(non)fiction) is also interesting. So, maybe by having a girl intervene in this playground fight, we can end it?

(But first, on a related note:
So, what is the relationship of porn and sex?
Something along the lines of the relationship between science and science fiction.
Wait: does that mean porn=science, and sex=science fiction? Judy Butler's got nuthin' on you, grant...)

Back to our regularly scheduled dog-fight: I'm interested in the relationship between "sexual liberation" and "liberation," and not sure what that relationship is. Could we have a side-bar discussion of that issue (perhaps it should be a new thread, but I'd like to discuss it here, because it clearly does have a bearing on this discussion. Larry Flynt, who publishes Hustler in the US certainly equates the two. I don't believe Lurid is doing so, pace Haus. But although I disagree that those terms are equivalent, I do think they are related. I'm thinking of Foucault's work, here: clearly there's an old story that says "Back in the bad old days women--and men--were repressed about their sexuality and discussion of sexuality was silenced." Clearly, part of Foucault's argument is that "things are much more complex than that repressive hypothesis would suggest." As I recall (and I may be far off the mark, here--corrections welcomed), he started thinking about this in Sweden, where sexual activity seemed to be more "open" more "liberated" but didn't seem actually to produce "more freedom." Clearly, just having more, and more open "discourse" about sexuality (whether in image or word) does not necessarily equate to a kind of liberation, for either sex. But ... thinking aloud here: 1) is there anything liberatory in talking about / imaging sex--per se--in Western culture? 2) I want to think more about Lurid's suggestion that there's a "contamination" / "impurity" associated with male sexuality, at least in the version of feminism that is most visible in mainstream-educated white Western circles, particularly those that reject "het boy porn" on grounds of taste and/or politics--which are difficult to separate, no? (Bourdieu, anyone?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:58 / 22.05.02
Actually, Lurid and I have made up offstage. In a sexy way. I was halfway through composing a response when Alas beat me to the punch. However, I think it may still be relevant, as it involves the "shamefulness" of het-boy porn...

Well, Lurid and I have huggled and made up now, so I'm going to try looking at
this in another way.

Pornography in itself (and stop me if you want to challenge any of these steps)
is not necessarily offensive. Or, to put it another way, anything may have the
power to offend somebody. And, by the same token, pornography need not be
contextually sordid. F'r example, if I am in the right retail environment, then
I will presumably find nothing unduly strange or twitchworthy about buying,
say, "Doing it for Daddy", which is by Lurid's definition pornography (and I
would certainly say is potentially material secured for the purpose of self-
excitement). Curiously, once one is in a particular context there is no
necessary correlation between porn and sordor.

Hmmmm. What I mean is, take Femdom/BDSM. If you want decent Femdom BDSM porn, I
assume that you will have to seek out a specialist supplier, just as you would
have to seek out a specialist supplier if you wanted to buy decent BDSM gear
("decent" meaning "not tacky, overpriced Anne Summers-y crap", in this case).
Therefore, you will be in an environment where the fact that you are interested
in femdom BDSM is prettty much taken as read, and therefore, in a funny sort of
way, "denaughtified", if you get my meaning.

Conversely, in a newsagents, there is no implicit assumption that you are
interested in looking at women in stockings with their legs spread. Pornography
in this context is not a natural selection - it is divorced from the general
work of the newsagents, by its ritualised position (top shelf), and thus the fact that to look at it, interact with it, etc, you have to make a very conscious action to look at it or reach it - it involves a ritualised *physical* process as well.

So, why all these shameful rituals? If porn doesn't have to be shameful, why is there a conditioning to find the purchase and perhaps the use of het-boy newsstand softcore somehow contaminated?

Some possible sugegstions. That it has to be, either because the enjoyment of aforementioned porn is keyed totally to some feeling beyond sexual arousal at the pretty pictures and naughty stories - that self-revulsion is a part of the excitatory or masturbatory process (see under 'how are sex and porn connected'?), or that without the idea that pornographic materials of this kind are somehow shameful, the churning process of disposal and replacement that keeps the industry alive would cease.

Or, possibly, because (although this only works with the "Hope"-style conflicted middle-class user) the memetics of top-shelf het coftcore are in themselves, separate from any idea fo the sexual act, repulsive...David Baddiel says of hardcore porn that it is far more honest than softcore, as the apparent eye contact of the softcore model says "you can have me", while the message of hardcore is "you can't have me, because I'm already being had by somebody with a much bigger dick". I suspect this distinction is self-serving, but there is perhaps something in the idea that, to fill the space left by "sex" itself", softcore het porn has to develop the "porno narrative" into an entire worldview of sexy secretaries, horny bisexual flatmates, women who like to be forced, women who don't *need* to be forced, and so on, whereas other, "specialising" forms of sexually excitatory material have their own narratives already in place...

Or, to try it from a different angle (vicar), is the disgust of het-boy porn occasioned not because it represents heterosexual male sexual attitudes, but that it claims to?
 
 
Sebastian
13:19 / 22.05.02
Uhmmm, I really have to dig more in the writings above. For the moment, it would be interesting to say that I for censorship here in my country, I think pornography is a label used only for the exhibtion of male genitalia in erection, and thats it. Although a narrow defintion, at least you know what people is talking about when they say "porn", but not everybody knows about this definition. Everything else is not pornographic, which does not mean that any other material may not bear labels of "strong sexual content", which stimulate the potential spectator's apprehension a lot more.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:00 / 22.05.02
Its good to talk and make up.

I was probably using an overly general definition of porn above but it is interesting to ask exactly what we mean by porn - there are too many questions for one thread. Haus makes good points about the difference between het porn and more specialist flavours. Lets talk about the former.

Het porn certainly can be, and usually is, repulsive in the attitudes it exhibits toward women. The idea of a woman as an object with little volition of her own beyond an obsessive desire to sate male sexual needs. Robert Crumb, for instance, makes this explicit in some of his work - anyone remember the headless woman?

My feelings about this are tempered by my own opinions about the cause of the representation. However, this is garnered through little more than anecdotal observation and may be skewed.

Put simply, I think that (especially het) male feelings are of self disgust and shame of our own sexuality. And this is often accompanied by deep seated insecurities toward women.

If you accept this, though you may well not, het porn seems more about childish wish fulfillment than deliberate exploitation. Seen this way, het porn is a rather desperate and pitiable attempt to satisfy a need that is as much emotional as sexual - the depiction of a woman who absolutely will not reject or ridicule the male. Ironically, from this point of view, it is women who are sexually empowered and het porn is a compensation for this.

To briefly (well, I'll try to be brief) explain how I come to these attitudes about male sexuality:

I am often shocked in conversations with men about sex. There is a desperate need for validation that is often divorced from sexual satisfaction - this seems as external as it is internal. The asymmetrical sexual interactions with women are described with as much fear as excitement - chatup lines are a ridiculous idea that are again a symptom of insecurity. (Het) Male sexual satisfaction is a non-topic, as evidenced by statements like, "Men are always satisfied sexually" or "(Het) Women cannot be sexually unskilled". This is the idea that ejaculation and satisfaction are the same, doubtless informed by the neglect of female orgasms, yet still inadequate in my view. And I haven't even mentioned male attitudes and language in reference to the penis - Ganesh's thread makes an interesting read and is atypical in its celebratory tone.

No doubt I am speaking to particular men and indulging in self analysis that is in no way representative. How do I know? Its perplexing, because the sort of private sentiments I've heard are never expressed in public. In fact, a good deal of bravado effectively disguises them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 22.05.02
And I haven't even mentioned male attitudes and language in reference to the penis

Oooh! Thought, thought!

Softcore het porn (and actually, when I say "het" porn, I am increasingly aware that often I am eliding the idea with "straight" porn) cannot, as we know, show the penis, except in a fluffy (or rather, sans fluffer) cute gerbil way (at least in the UK).

So, since the sex-porn connection requires penetration (as het porn girls need penetration - the insertion fills and fulfils them), you are either presented with an exchange - a chairleg, dildo, vibrator, banana or whatever - or *you* are given the role of phallus, with the model's presentation of open, waiting eyes acting as a substitute channel for penetration. Except that you are not yourself a phallus, nor is your own phallic symbol, the penis, in any way in a position to penetrate a woman (which is, within the structure of the porn, its purpose), and the image subjects you to twofold inadequacy.

So, porn, sex, hets and revulsion:

1) The constant presence in porno of the indefatigable, pleasure-giving phallus makes the bendy, pleasure-seeking penis look a bit shit.

2) The constant desire of porno woman to be penetrated throws the situational impossibility of penetrating her in any meaningful way with the porno reader's own penis, inadequate as it is compared to the indefatigable etc phallus, into sharp relief.

So, straight porn is not just anti-woman, but also profoundly anti-man.

Thoughts?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:13 / 23.05.02
I agree with your conclusion Haus, but is it too general as it relies on a discussion of penetration and penis that seems inevitable for straight porn? Put it another way, I might agree that to exploit another is to debase yourself (wow, that sounds like a "Monkey" quote), but can't we imagine a straight porn that isn't exploitative? One that is neither anti women, nor anti men?

I think it would be depressing to conclude that no such thing is possible. That would mean that gender roles and sexual stereotypes are so twisted that we can only think in terms of exploitation and the portrayal of negative sexual images.

alas: I think the notion "that there's a "contamination" / "impurity" associated with male sexuality" has little to do with feminism. IMO it is part of traditional gender sterotypes. Feminism perhaps throws it into relief by focusing on gender roles regarding women rather than men? Hmmmm. Or maybe, by attempting to change the rules feminism highlights the inadequacy of traditional male behaviour?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:23 / 23.05.02
I think we'd need a terminological examination of the difference between heterosexuality and "straightness"...
 
 
some guy
15:24 / 23.05.02
"So, straight porn is not just anti-woman, but also profoundly anti-man."

Perhaps a more accurate description would be "some straight porn..." I don't think the case has been made yet that male-oriented heterosexual porn is inherently or even overwhelmingly anti-woman. It's interesting too that "soft het porn" is being bandied about with an unspoken male tilt, as thought the many het women who enjoy soft porn don't count.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:47 / 23.05.02
Not that they don't count, just that they aren't the market. If you have statistics on what percentage of the readership of, say, Club International are female, then I'd be fascinated - I know that there is apparently a small but statistically noticable minority of female readership. Also, the readership of things like Playgirl and For Women is presumably largely female.

It is however, the case that for every soft porn magazine aimed at heterosexual women released, at least in the UK, perhaps a hundred are released aimed at heterosexual men.
 
 
some guy
17:12 / 23.05.02
"Not that they don't count, just that they aren't the market."

That's fascinating in itself - what are we defining as the market? If the discussion is about "softcore het porn aimed at het male consumers" that's fine, but it seems that it's being taken for granted that "softcore het porn" is necessarily aimed at male consumers, and I'm sure we've all got anecdotal evidence from friends, sisters, girlfriends etc. to suggest that that's not always the case.

Or more interestingly, how accurate are porn statistics? Of the men who buy porn, how many do so knowing their het other will be using it? Doesn't that skew the stats? If Playboy subscribers are 90% male but two-thirds of those subscribers' girlfriends read each issue, doesn't that screw up our assumptions? I'd bet the stats show most vibrators are purchased by men, but it would be wrong to therefore assume the "vibrator market" is het men, for example.

Porn is so under-researched. I don't know these stats by the way - I'm genuinely interested.

"the readership of things like Playgirl and For Women is presumably largely female"

Don't those count as "softcore het porn," though? Are they anti-women? Are they anti-male? Isn't it much more accurate and fair to frame the argument as "some het porn is anti-women" rather than make a blanket statement? Especially when "degrading to women" does not necessarily equate to "anti-woman" and is one of those things that can only be "true" or "false" depending on the specific cultural baggage projected onto the porn in question by the observer?
 
 
the Fool
02:26 / 24.05.02
That's fascinating in itself - what are we defining as the market? If the discussion is about "softcore het porn aimed at het male consumers" that's fine, but it seems that it's being taken for granted that "softcore het porn" is necessarily aimed at male consumers,

Most of the market, I think we can safely assume, is. Not all, but most. This, I think, is Haus' point. There are always exceptions, but they don't help in examinations of the rule.

Or more interestingly, how accurate are porn statistics? Of the men who buy porn, how many do so knowing their het other will be using it? Doesn't that skew the stats? If Playboy subscribers are 90% male but two-thirds of those subscribers' girlfriends read each issue, doesn't that screw up our assumptions?

These are all maybes. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. If so many 'girlfriends' read playboy as well, why don't they pick up a scubscription? This suggestion still assumes the male to be the primary consumer of the porn, with the girlfriend consuming porn because of the influence of the male.

Don't those count as "softcore het porn," though? Are they anti-women? Are they anti-male? Isn't it much more accurate and fair to frame the argument as "some het porn is anti-women" rather than make a blanket statement?

Does female het porn work the same way as male het porn?

Especially when "degrading to women" does not necessarily equate to "anti-woman" and is one of those things that can only be "true" or "false" depending on the specific cultural baggage projected onto the porn in question by the observer?

Isn't this "specific cultural baggage" what we are trying to explore here?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:17 / 24.05.02
I'm fascinated to know how something can be "degrading to women" but not "anti-woman"...not denying for a second that it could happen, but am interested in the hydraulics...

However, I'm afraid "anecdotal evidence from friends, sisters, girlfriends etc" is no more likely to convince than the supposition that the fact that a minority of women encounter softcore heterosexual porn (SHP for short form now on) argues against the idea that it is aimed at men, any more than Cosmopolitan's devoted minority male readership stops it being a magazine aimed at women.

And, as I believe I just said, Playgirl and For Women do appear to be constructed as softcore porn mags for het women, but the fact that a) I canot think of a third title and b) Playgirl's circulation in the UK apparently hovers somewhere around 60,000 suggests that this is a tiny niche market. Plus, how would the revelation that some of those readers were men, or that women's boyfriends read them also, have? Your argument seems a bit muddled...
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:11 / 24.05.02
There are lots of strong opinions floating round and I'll freely confess that much of my "information" is little more than personal observation. For instance, I find it hard to believe that a significant number of women read Playboy, either alone or with a partner. But its not like I've conducted a large scale survey on it.

On the other hand, Haus point about the intended audience for Softcore het porn being overwhelmingly male seems indisputable.

I'm still interested in the question of whether softcore het porn neccessarily has to be either degarding to women or anti women.
What would a non degrading version of SHP look like? Is it, in fact, an impossibility?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:48 / 24.05.02
I think that's a key question. If we assume (and I'm not saying this is inarguable here) that the tropes of newsstand porn in general *are* degrading to women, then how would we envisage non-degrading straight soft porn? Is it possible.

I'm thinking about slash here (it happens. A lot. Live with it). Deva (I think) once offered a tentative definition of slash as the "eroticisation of equality" - is this a useful concept here? How would one go about it? I'm thinking it would have to be structural as well as representation-based...

OK, case in point. As far as I understand it Suicide Girls fits the pathology of portraying women in various states of undress, alone and with other women, for the male gaze. However, the "girls" have complete editorial control over the material that is published, and can choose how much to reveal or not reveal. Instead of a heavy editorial presence, the "girls" are given weblogs, again with editorial control. I don't know how the payscheme works, but I think again that might be significant.

Are these moves towards a non-exploitative straight porn, or just ways to leverage the value of the "authenticity" quotient? Is it also significant that it is aiming at a specialist (raver, goth, punk, "alternative") market?
 
 
some guy
12:33 / 24.05.02
"If so many 'girlfriends' read playboy as well, why don't they pick up a scubscription? This suggestion still assumes the male to be the primary consumer of the porn, with the girlfriend consuming porn because of the influence of the male."

Yes, but the causal relationship being read into this analysis hasn't been demonstrated. "The influence of the male" sounds very negative, when in fact I've known women to read their boyfriends' copies of Playboy alone. Lots of women enjoy watching porn films, but I imagine few actually buy them. I think this may be one of the ingrained gender roles that affects so much of sexuality. The point is that if women are enjoying porn ostensibly aimed at men, then we're not getting very far discussing the porn in question solely in the context of men. I'd argue that men may be the "primary purchaser" of softcore het porn by a large margin, but the "primary consumer" by quite a slim one - at least past the age of 16 or so.

Or to put it another way, who's left consuming softcore porn when the freaky people evolve toward the extremes of hardcore?

"Does female het porn work the same way as male het porn?"

Good question.

"I'm fascinated to know how something can be 'degrading to women' but not 'anti-woman'"

We need to define what exactly is "degrading" about softcore het porn, because it's a matter of perception rather than fact. Is merely appearing in softcore het porn degrading? Or are specific types of the porn degrading? But to answer your question, specific acts can be degrading to the participants and not reflect a larger anti-woman or anti-male sentiment. BSDM for example is all about the willingness to accept a fantasy degredation. This doesn't mean it's necessarily anti-woman or anti-male or anti-whoever is dominated.

"However, I'm afraid "anecdotal evidence from friends, sisters, girlfriends etc" is no more likely to convince than ... stops it being a magazine aimed at women."

Absolutely. I think the troubling thing about debating porn is the lack of good statistics and neutral analysis. It's also important to separate our definitions of "purchaser" and "consumer," as the vibrator example demonstrates.

"Playgirl and For Women do appear to be constructed as softcore porn mags for het women"

It's interesting that in many cases the content is nearly interchangeable with the "scenario" shoots used in "het men" mags such as Playboy and Penthouse. Are the women in the latter exploited, and the men in the former? Does the degredation come about because of the intended consumer? Is this why you are opposed to het men watching lesbian porn?

"Plus, how would the revelation that some of those readers were men, or that women's boyfriends read them also, have? Your argument seems a bit muddled... "

My argument is actually strengthened if we discovered men read their others' magazines, because my point is that talk of "intended audiences" is meaningless when it comes to softcore porn because the "purchaser" all to often does not equate to the sole "consumer." I think men tend to buy the "household porn" but that women frequently use it with them. I don't think that applies to hardcore porn, however.

Re: Lurid's question of "non-degrading softcare het porn." How is crap like Red Shoe Diaries "degrading?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:50 / 24.05.02
I think The Red Shoe Diaries degrades us all....

I also think that supporting one unsupported claim (that SHP porn may be bought overwhelmingly by men, but is enjoyed equally by women) with another totally unsupported claim (that vibrators may be bought overwhelmingly by men but are used primarily by women) is to strengthen fog with a fog weave.
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:16 / 24.05.02
a small interjection: I purchased subscriptions of two magazines (one was playgirl, one quite a bit more turned towards certain kinks) for my ex and kept them up for a while after wed broken up. I read them. not as porn, but as an fairly interesting diversion beyond the local paper (my personal opinion is that the models in playgirl are so pitifully touched up that to me its like watching a cartoon, and many of the scenarios that tended to be portrayed in the other one werent really of any sexual interest to me)

Im not trying to claim that my interest in them was in any way educational or even simple idle boredom. rather more similar to reading that novel that makes you squirm when considering the embarrassingly cliche characters yet still manages to capture your attention long enough to carry you to the end.
 
 
some guy
15:59 / 24.05.02
"I think The Red Shoe Diaries degrades us all...."

That's a glib non-response. Obviously TRD isn't high art or anything, but are shows of its ilk "degrading" or "anti-woman?" And why? Those are the kinds of films that spring to mind when "softcore het porn" is mentioned, although we could probably safely include the top shelf magazines and Sex and the City as well...

"I also think that supporting one unsupported claim (that SHP porn may be bought overwhelmingly by men, but is enjoyed equally by women) with another totally unsupported claim (that vibrators may be bought overwhelmingly by men but are used primarily by women) is to strengthen fog with a fog weave."

Except that I wasn't supporting a claim, but rather raising questions that have never been sufficiently answered through factual research. It just seems to me that an awful lot of this discussion is based on assumption rather than fact, with a bent toward "women's interest = erotica = good" and "men's interest = porn = bad."

Or to put it another way - what's the difference between "softcore het porn" and "softcore het erotica?" I'm hugely interested in some of the questions that have been raised here. Are depictions of sex always degrading? What does that imply about the psyche of the people who claim that versus the "objective neutrality" of sex?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 24.05.02
Um....have you read the thread so far? Did you follow it at all? Did you notice the "this is not a discussion about what is erotica and which is porn, as that requires its own thread" *right at the start of the thread*?

More responsey response later, when and if I have the energy.
 
 
some guy
19:16 / 24.05.02
"have you read the thread so far? Did you follow it at all? Did you notice the "this is not a discussion about what is erotica and which is porn, as that requires its own thread" *right at the start of the thread*?"

Yep. But in my opinion the thread has degenerated into a morass that can only be navigated by explicitly defining those two terms. Otherwise everyone is talking at cross purposes. We're all making assumptions without pointing to statistics or other evidence from agreed-upon sources, we're making assumptions about terminology and so forth.

I guess my point is that this thread necessarily requires the "discussion about what is erotica and which is porn," because otherwise it becomes meaningless.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:13 / 26.05.02
Ivery much doubt that introducing two terminological boxes as subjective as "erotica" and "porn" is going to *demorass* anything...

However.

One might say that "The Red Shoe Diaries" degrades its participants and its viewers because it forces the actors to go through a ludicrous dumbshow of something almosty utterly unrelated to human sexuality and indeed the kind fo sex that humans have, and it forces its viewer to accept as meaningful points of sexual reference the same nonsensical parasexual non sequiturs. It forces precisely the wedge between pornography (or "erotica" - and already we ae in trouble) and sex that turns the idea fo sex into the practice of pantomime.

Where "women's interest=erotica=good" came from I'm unsure, but actually one of the most interesting things in this thread so far is the tendency of respondents to draw no distinction between the words on the page and the voices in their heads...
 
 
some guy
22:23 / 26.05.02
[i]I very much doubt that introducing two terminological boxes as subjective as "erotica" and "porn" is going to *demorass* anything...[/i]

Agreed. But how much more confusing will it be without an attempt? Because of our own personal definitions of porn and the value judgements we individually bring to it, any discussion without some attempt at laying "ground rules" won't be of much value. This thread is a case in point, I would suggest.

[i]One might say that "The Red Shoe Diaries" degrades its participants and its viewers because it forces the actors to go through a ludicrous dumbshow of something almosty utterly unrelated to human sexuality and indeed the kind fo sex that humans have, and it forces its viewer to accept as meaningful points of sexual reference the same nonsensical parasexual non sequiturs.[/i]

Ah, but isn't this unreality one of the prime attractors to porn? Isn't porn by its very nature defined by its fantasy aspect?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:38 / 27.05.02
I think Alki's point is that it isn't "fantasy", it's just stupidity. Fantasy without characterisation, credible motivation, believable dialogue or any causal relationship between actions (so, the guy places an advert asking for sexy stories. And people send them to him. And he reads them aloud. While walking his dog) is not to be criticised for being fantasy, but for being fantastically *bad*.

Which brings us back to the gap between sex and porn...is it a gap for creative inscription, or just an absence? Is this one of the differences between "porn" and "erotica", if one really *must* go there? And my suggestion would be that it might make a lot more sense to distinguish between narratives with a primarily erotic capitalising motive (things *sold as* erotica/porn, in effect - magazines, Black Lace novels, Shannon Tweed movies) and everything else.
 
 
some guy
12:57 / 27.05.02
"I think Alki's point is that it isn't "fantasy", it's just stupidity. Fantasy without characterisation, credible motivation, believable dialogue or any causal relationship between actions (so, the guy places an advert asking for sexy stories. And people send them to him. And he reads them aloud. While walking his dog) is not to be criticised for being fantasy, but for being fantastically *bad*."

Oh, it's absolutely bad fiction - it's the "Full House" of softcore porn. But is it degrading, and why?
 
  

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