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Empire

 
 
YNH
07:56 / 10.05.02
I notice some of y'all have read it and since I can occasionally afford to buy a book again, I might, too.

What should I expect?
 
 
Cat Chant
08:32 / 10.05.02
I thought it was fantastic, from my admittedly very academicized perspective. It's a sort of weird hybrid of Marxism and Deleuze-Guattari stuff (they say the two books you should probably have read in order to understand where they're coming from are 'Capital' and '1000 Plateaux'), in an attempt to come up with a new way of thinking about and doing global politics. They use 'Empire' as a key concept to demonstrate the similarities and differences between American hegemony and older European imperialisms, and they write very clearly (to my mind, Lyra thought they were incomprehensible: I think they're way easier than Marx) about the new, "smooth", networks of power.

They're very fond of Foucault, less so of Derrida & postmodern theorists.

The main criticism I've heard levelled at them is that "they misread Carl Schmitt" (who is a German political theorist who focussed on the irreducible antagonisms within politics).

I would love to discuss the book here.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:34 / 10.05.02
oh - incidentally I've read about 2 chapters of 'Capital' and a bit of the Grundrisse, and about 20 pages of 1000 Plateaux, and I followed it nicely. I don't think you have to be a big Marxist/D&Gean to understand it, though it might help when they start going into raptures about Spinoza (I understand this is a Guattari thing).
 
 
YNH
21:33 / 10.05.02
Thanks. Think I even have a decent background for it. Deva, you're the best.
 
 
johnnymonolith
22:19 / 10.05.02
i have just started reading it-you can download it 4 free from an Antonio Negri site and it's actually very good i think.(POSH rambling alert ON It is always so cool to see D&G put to good use. It reminds me in place of the spirit of Bey's T.A.Z. and Immediocracy but far surpasses it in terms of actually dissecting the ways in which society is now experiencing social&political&economical changes and how one can actually go about living one's life in a world that is anything but "pure" and clear-cut but instead a hybrid and constantling miscenegating one (POSH rambling alert off).

Anyway, i like it.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:21 / 11.05.02
I think it has nice moments, but is basically shit. Okay, I haven't read it all, but the writing just struck me as completely insipid - way too many long words (not against long words, just their pointless over-use). It is a second-rate introduction to Italian Marxism; you'd do better with, say, the collection 'radical thought in italy' co-edited by Hardt and Paolo Virno, or Negri and Hardt's earlier collaboration, Labour of Dionysus.

I think Negri is very good at analysing the class dynamics of specific incidents. But trying, like he does in Empire, to give a much more sweeping historical analysis just doesn't work.

Incidentally, the Spinoza thing is much more Deleuze (who wrote two books on Spinoza) than Guattari (who didn't write specifically on Spinoza at all, that I know of). Negri also wrote a book on Spinoza, heavily influenced by Deleuze's work, called The Savage Anamoly.

Would definitely recommend Labour of Dyonisus over Empire in terms of everything except trend-value.
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:46 / 06.02.03
Thought I would revive this thread in light of this review of criticisms Empire has received. Partly because I thought it was pretty hilarious to read - a list of everything anyone thinks is wrong with Empire, none of them even minimally substantiated, from completely incompatible theoretical perspectives. Not to mention the strained translation (personal favourite: Michael Hardt made himself recently publish a strange article in the British Guardian in which he more or less asked the world elite to accept that a decentralised Empire/ ruling system would be better as an Imperialistic war would be funny.

What do youse reckon?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
03:22 / 06.02.03
A link to the Pdf Copy so that everyone taking part can at least have access.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:22 / 28.02.04
I'm rereading this at the moment, and wanted to revive this thread to ask about this quote (p.181). They've claimed elsewhere that one of the defining characteristics of Empire is that it is called into being, and here they say:

In all the regional conflicts of the late twentieth century, from Haiti to the Persian Gulf and Somalia to Bosnia, the United States is called to intervene militarily - and these calls are real and substantial, not merely publicity stunts to quell US public dissent. Even if it were reluctant, the US military would have to answer the call in the name of peace and order.

Now my question is: in what sense, if any, is that not just bollocks?

Thanking you, Deva xxx
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:22 / 29.02.04
Well, the first thing to note here is that the book is distinctly pre-911 - this claim would be obviously very difficult to justify following the significant international dissent to wars on Afghanistan and Iraq. Second, it ignores the vast number of US military interventions 'at one remove', where the US supplies and trains local militias to intervene where it would be unnecessarily costly for the US to wage war directly (i.e., many interventions throughout Latin America, the contras against the Sandinistas, etc.) Third, the US frequently, and again especially in Latin America, uses supposedly civil rationales to conceal military interventions, as when it sprays toxins over crops in Marxist-controlled areas under the aegis of the drug war. Finally, there is absolutely no evidence the US feels obliged to offer military backing where doing so would not directly support its interests, and indeed frequently supports terroristic aggression (i.e., by Saddam before he split from US backers, for colonial aggression by the state of Israel, etc.)

Those are a few obvious points off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more...

Incidentally, I have just been reading Immanuel Wallerstein's Historical Capitalism, which is a much shorter, more lucid, convincing, and engaging account of contemporary capital than Hardt and Negri's, for mine.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:39 / 01.03.04
So no sense in which it is not bollocks, then. That was my feeling.
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:36 / 02.03.04
I haven't read the book but to answer Deva's question one should probably bear in mind that both Kosovo and the Gulf Wars are considered by many to be prime examples of altruistic intervention. Here, one could also take as read that any UN or NATO action is only possible with the participation of the US.
 
  
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