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Free speech is good?

 
 
SMS
05:08 / 05.05.02
Free speech, freedom of the press, freedom to assemble. We are taught that this gives the people a chance to create new ideas, to challenge the government policies, and to allow each person the opportunity to express his ideas. However, it also does something more. It forces memes to compete on a savage ground. They must now all fight for control, each against every other. Sometimes, extreme positions have a harder time finding large numbers of human hosts, and moderate positions will find the largest power base. Sometimes, in hard times, the opposite is the case, and moderate positions seem to lose most battles.

Free speech laws are free market laws for memes. The most successful idea is not any more likely to be the most moral idea than the most successful business is to be the most moral business. Maybe we cannot trust the government in power to decide what can and cannot be published, but is this landscape really ideal?

The United States and countries with similar policies have used these free market philosophies to spread their seed across the world. You can't stop us. You can't stop our businesses from invading your country. You can't stop our ideas from invading your country. They're too powerful. They've been growing in a more fertile environment and can crush the rest of the world under their powerful thumbs.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:25 / 05.05.02
But is free speech such a good thing really? It does allow bonehead things like racists to spread their hate around. And if anyone says 'I don't like what you say...' to me I'll stick a snooker cue up their arse.
 
 
m. anthony bro
01:57 / 06.05.02
There's two things here:

(1) why would the government have the right to tell you what you can or cannot say, think, feel or do? Only, if someone lets it. I never put my name to such an agreement. Any thing that controls free speech, from constitutional to broadcasting standards, or whatever, has to come from the Man. So, free speech is good, and constitutionally protected doubly so, because the Man is an asshole, and one less thing he can shaft you with is a fine thing.

(2) people say dumb shit, sure, but the thought processes that make you agree or disagree with it are all yours. There is no Jean-Marie-Le-Pen-o-tronic 3000 invading anyone's head and making them think anything.
 
 
Dao Jones
09:31 / 07.05.02
Do we still have my thread about this from long ago?
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
09:59 / 07.05.02
Nothing in itself seems to be good or bad, their all just tools, that can be used by different people in different ways.

its always the human actor that makes things appear good or bad from our point of view.
 
 
Ierne
12:52 / 07.05.02
Freedom of speech comes with responsibility; in order for the concept of free speech to work, one has to fully accept responsibility for what one says and how that speech affects one's situation or environment, including other people.

Not too many people think about that before they shoot their mouths off.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:05 / 07.05.02
I'm interested in restricting corporate speech somehow. I don't believe corporations should have the same rights as individuals w/r/t freedom of speech, right to assemble, etc.

An example of this, in the US, is advertising for prescription drugs. I think it's by and large abominable for companies to market products (especially those with potentially dangerous or unknown side effects) directly to the consumer, when the consumer hirself needs special dispensation from a trained professional to purchase the product legally. There's something quite fucked up about that. Zoloft ads on afternoon TV.

Granted corporations are made up of individuals (though which individuals constisute a corporations? Employees? Shareholders?) who have protected rights, but I think the legal status of a corporation should be LESS than that of a citizen.

Another example of dubious freedom of speech is the "speech" embodied in the spending of a dollar. In a current case, opponents of Campaign Finance Reform argue that limits on donations to politcal candidates, parties and PACs abridge the right of free speech, the donations supposedly embodying political speech. In a country where the "marketplace of ideas" has taken a scarily literal meaning, and consumer choice is equated all the time with democracy, people tend to buy this line of argument more than they should.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:10 / 07.05.02
I'm interested in restricting corporate speech somehow. I don't believe corporations should have the same rights as individuals w/r/t freedom of speech, right to assemble, etc.

I as well, but that comes more from me not liking any entity that has the benefits of being treated like an individual (can file lawsuits) but can't be punished like one (corporations don't go to jail).
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:03 / 08.05.02
If you stop corporations right to free spe3ech then all that happens is that the Chief Execs (or actors) speak out at length as 'concerned citizens'. Plus any rule would probably seriously ristrict the activities of the good guys like Greenpeace or Amnesty.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:30 / 08.05.02
Do people here distinguish between Free Speech and Freedom of Speech?
 
 
SMS
22:43 / 08.05.02
Not as far as I know.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:31 / 09.05.02
You define 'em, I'll decide whether I'm differentiatin' 'em.
 
 
SMS
23:55 / 09.05.02
It seems the main argument presented for protecting free speech are that we cannot trust "the Man" to do anything else.

Still, most of us support the Man in at least some areas of power. I support refulations that keep my food relatively safe from poisons; I support anti-trust laws; I support traffic laws. I may disagree with the details of how they are written or how they are enforced, but, in principle, I support them. I do not support repealing them just to take power away from the government.

Altering the "right" of freedom of speech would not necessarily need to be an outright ban on certain statements. We could consider passing laws that might change the landscape of discourse, so that some ideas have an advantage over others.

Maybe the new free speech right could read, "no person shall be imprisoned or fined excessively for speaking or printing any words except those...." like screaming theatre in a crowded fire, and so forth.
 
 
cusm
01:12 / 10.05.02
Free speech allows for memes to develop through the process of evolution. Nature tries every possibility, expanding in all directions chaoticly, until she finds something that works. Freedom of expression allows this same process for memes.

As for shouting fire in theatres and such, I see a priority of laws here, an order of operations. Before freedom of expression, freedom of existence. That is, if what you do causes harm to others, it must be restricted. It seems sensible that this would supercede a freedom of expression, as one must exist before one can express.
 
 
SMS
02:02 / 10.05.02
Nature tries every possibility, expanding in all directions chaoticly, until she finds something that works.

Again, she finds something that works, yes. But something that works to what end? It isn't to make us happier, healthier, wiser, more intelligent, reasonable, moral, honorable, or even selfish, mean, or angy. The successful memes might have these characteristics incidentally, but the "something that works" is something that works to propogate itself across the land. Why do I want that?
 
 
cusm
02:57 / 10.05.02
Ultimately, the most sucessful meme would not only spread, but be satisfying for its hosts as well, beneficial to the entire system. Your agreeing with the meme is a force of natural selection in action. There has to be a selection process to trim out the ones that are not desirable. Its interesting in this case as we are that selection process.
 
 
YNH
06:07 / 10.05.02
Do we still have my thread about this from long ago? - Dao

No. Nothing on Censorship or Free Speech.

Score one for Repetition. Wanna get into it again?
 
 
Lurid Archive
06:23 / 10.05.02
the most sucessful meme would not only spread, but be satisfying for its hosts as well, beneficial to the entire system.

It doesn't work that way in biology, as far as I'm aware, so I don't see why it should work for memes. Doesn't Dawkins spend a lot of time arguing that, in fact, memes can self propogate to the detriment of the host? Its true that he goes a touch overboard with his anti religious stance, but his reasoning seems quite sound in the abstract.
 
 
Dao Jones
13:28 / 10.05.02
No. Nothing on Censorship or Free Speech.

Score one for Repetition. Wanna get into it again?


I'm not sure. Would it still be funny the second time round? You know, I had the whole thing and I binned it the other day. Gah.

Okay...quicktime:

Free Speech is bad. It assumes we live in a perfect world. It assumes political education and motivation in the populace, and that people will act in their own interests. This is abundantly obviously not the case. As a society, we drink bleach on a regular basis.

Democracy is not the winner in the grand memetic struggle - the other memes are still on the battlefield, and democracy is handicapped by its own inability to destroy them owing to an allegiance to free speech.

There are points of view which are simply vile and are of no benefit to the populace. Naked racism, with its lies and convenient targets, corporate propaganda, and short-termist environment-bashing nation-bribing, all these are Bads, yet we afford them column inches which, at least in the case of rightist politics, they would never afford us, positions reversed. It's a memetic knife-fight, and we drop the knife before it begins if we hew to free speech.

Is that about the way it went before?
 
 
cusm
13:38 / 10.05.02
That's just the difference that makes this so interesting. In biology, the process is unconscious. The only factor for success is survival. But with memes, the system is aware of itself, and can make changes to itself. Its sentient evolution. It doesn't work the same way, its an order of magnitude more complicated as now one of the factors that can cause a meme to not survive is how the system perceives it.

Take this example: In an unconscious system, uncontrolled growth of an organism will eventually destroy the system, as cancer cells in an organic host. In a sentient system, the host perceives the cancerous growth, realizes the danger to itself, and removes the tumor. The system makes corrections to itself, rather than letting it run freely.

What this means to a free market or free speech, is what while freedom of expression allows for new memes to propigate and develope, the system it lies within must act as the force of natural selection to limit memes which are perceived as dangerous to the system through normal meanes of innoculation or vaccination of "dangerous" memes. It seems a tricky balance, as one does not want to destroy these memes completely as they may still be useful for their genetic material. However, one has to control their impact and growth. You end up with a system that is not truely free or controlled, but some balance between for optimal growth. It is detrimental to the system for any one meme to dominate the entire system, so the system itself acts as the resistive force that would otherwise be represented in biology as the struggle to survive in a hostile environment.
 
 
cusm
13:45 / 10.05.02
There are points of view which are simply vile and are of no benefit to the populace

Sure, if left wild. If tamed, they can be quite useful. Vile memes can be used as vaccinations to prevent similarly vile memes from appearing. As an example, the meme Genocide is vaccinated against by the meme "Memory of the Holocost". The Isrealies, in their rampant PR campaign to prevent a genocide against their people from repeating, have succeded in vaccinating most of the world against the idea of genocide at all, least they be linked to another vile meme, Nazism.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:36 / 11.05.02
cusm, I wish I shared your optimism. I just don't think that it is warranted in the world today. I don't think we have been "vaccinated" from the idea of genocide, and there are plenty of atrocities present in the world. What about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the (US backed) Indonesian Death sqauds deployed against the East Timorese? What about Rwanda? As far as I'm aware these are all classed as genocides - see for an ok resource. There is lots more out there, I've just picked a couple of examples.

Ultimately, although I hope I'm wrong, I think that the sort of self awareness and self correction that you are talking about are memes in themselves. They are shared by a few people but not by the general populace. We have the possibility of feeding the world, yet we don't. There is awareness of environmental issues, which we ignore. Inequity grows year on year and democracy retreats. You could claim that these are new challenges that we face, I don't think we face them at all well. I see no evidence of our consciousness, as a species, developing.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:38 / 11.05.02
That link should have been to the Web Genocide Documentation Centre
here.
 
 
cusm
19:35 / 13.05.02
It may seem like optimism Lurid, but really I just don't believe absolutes have a place in a world of constant change and evolution. Sure, these ideas have not stopped genocide completely. But one thing you can be sure of, is that it'll be damn unlikely for any "1st world" country to participate in one any time soon. That's a measurable effect of an innoculation at work. No, its not perfect, but it did have an effect, and will continue to have one in the future. That is really the best we can hope for in a chaotic system like life.

You implement levels of control and influence, but the system remains inherently open ended to some extent. Should it ever cease to be, it will loose the ability to evolve, and in time, die. So, I see free speech as necessary to survival of society as a whole, with the given that the ideas it generates must be dealt with if they are dangerous. There is no freedom without responsibility.
 
 
SMS
20:33 / 13.05.02
Why don't we use the law to help us innoculate?
 
 
muse
00:38 / 14.05.02
*reply deleted: contained text found unpleasant by governing body*
 
 
YNH
06:07 / 14.05.02
But one thing you can be sure of, is that it'll be damn unlikely for any "1st world" country to participate in one any time soon.

We must be viewing different news... without further rotting the thread, it looks like it could/is happening right now.

Okay, Dao. It might not be funny the second time around, but...

Depending on how one, or one society, defines, legislates, and protects or guarantees free and equal speech, the concept can either be used to silence portions of the population or engage civil society in the most vigorous political discussion.

People do act in their own interests, and in fact often do so with some knowledge (however obtained) of what the best of those interests are. Individual actors are neither entirely self-interested nor predominantly altruistic, but they intend in most cases to survive. If we drink bleech, then in most cases we do so because we trust it to facilitate reaching some desired goal.

Democracy in and of itself owes no allegiance to free speech or freedom, however one defines them. The progenitors of democracy denied citizenship to upwards of 80% of their populations. Political systems and particular rights are separate competing memes. Especially in a thread like this one, we'd do well to remember that.

As it stands, different democracies address free speech, and the survival of democracy, in various ways. The US, for example, pays lip service to free speech while effectively guaranteeing it (through liberal interpretation of the "Freedom of the Press" clause) to only a few multinational media conglomerates.

Another way free speech might be conceived would include equal airtime, equally funded, on all available media for multiple diverse voices: the fuckwit skinheads get equal time with Edward Said and Ted Turner. In this case it would be very easy to simply change the channel or turn off the /(medium)/. I suspect the counterargument here is that expecting a vibrant political culture to emerge is a bit optimistic given poor voter turnouts nad the common folks' need to put food on the table versus watching, listening to, or reading manifestos and platforms. One response, then, is to remind the reader of specific examples of vigorous public involvement in politics: in this case I'll trot out the Lincoln-era US. Literacy was at a high point, voter turnout was admirable. And the average citizen could follow a three hour speech and respond with pertinent inquiries about small details of an individual's platform. I reckon I could demonstrate that as media narrowed the number of available voices (see Gore Vidal's "one political party with two right wings" statement), interest and involvement in the public sphere diminished. Claiming that today's voter basically justifies closing down free speech is teleology of the worst order.

Naked racism, corporate propaganda, &c. are indeed afforded column-inches. It is the alternatives that are rarely provided the same courtesy. Guaranteeing equal representation would not only allow a population to make informed decisions, it would allow the more adaptable, long-term meams to compete with their sickly brethren.

Actually I think it went differently last time. Score one for specific dependence on initial conditions as well.

SMS, I hope some of the above addresses your intial post regarding moderate and extreme positions/memes. It was intended, in general terms, to address a free playing field that unfortunately doesn't exist.

Free speech laws are free market laws for memes. The most successful idea is not any more likely to be the most moral idea than the most successful business is to be the most moral business. Maybe we cannot trust the government in power to decide what can and cannot be published, but is this landscape really ideal?

Your analogy is very telling. The economic free market is as much a fantasy as the free memetic market. Unless of course one claims that the restricted versions of both are the most powerful meme because, well, look at them: they've won. They haven't. News makers work their asses off every day to (re)fix the idea that things are best the way they are now. For example, with every protest they must tirelessly work to discredit tens of thousands of individuals willing to risk their very lives to say "this must end."

Dao's alternative, a radical restriction of reactionary voices, appears to be nothing more than a reversal of fortunes. We certainly cannot trust the government we have now, though.

And, um, depending on whether one decides to believe memetics pretty much follows the same logic as genetics or that the two are merely analogous, adding concepts like "survival of the fittest" damges the credibility of the thesis. Nature will let just about anything slink by as long as it doesn't catastrophically autoimmolate itself before breeding. Presumably, memes are the same way. There are no more Shakers.
 
 
Krister Kjellin
12:36 / 19.05.02
Memes an all that aside -- there are two kinds of restrictions to free speech. One kind is there to protect the individual, e.g. laws against slander, harassment and lying commercials.

The intent of the other kind is to suppress expression of opinions that threatens the current government or system of government, e.g. the laws in Turkey that forbid the use of "w", since it's a Kurdish letter (don't ask me how they use the www in Turkey...)

The first is akin to laws that stop us from punching each other in the face, the other is similar to laws that allows "some physical coercion" when interrogating Palestinians.

No?
 
  
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