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Cat calling and street harassment

  
 
passer
16:46 / 03.05.02
This is a topic I, for whatever reason, have only discussed with feminist women, but I'm curious as to what a wider, perhaps less feminist focused, discussion of cat calling and street harassment would look like. So here goes.

Any thoughts?

Personally, I'm still particularly mystified as to why people do it. Particlary the more "harmless" type. Surely no one thinks yelling "hey baby" is the way to meet a mate and I'm loathe to think that everyone who does this is attempting to exert power over someone. Am I too optimistic about this?
 
 
passer
16:50 / 03.05.02
I knew I was forgetting something:
My perspective is distinctly American, so I feel I have to ask. Is this an American thing? A close friend of mine was Israeli and was always disappointed if she went running and was not cat called. However, she was the exception to most women I know who don't find it flattering in the least.
 
 
suds
17:12 / 03.05.02
why is it neccessary to not speak about this with non-feminist women? i am a feminist woman, does that make my opinion any less valid to you?


even though i'm not sure if you want to know my story or not, i don't really crae: being a feminist does not make my opinion any less important so here it fucking well is.
i get harrassed continually. i get yelled at and groped in the street. i have been raped before and i am scared of it happening again, so i hate it when it happens to me on the streets. it makes me feel very unsafe and very vulnerable.

of course this is not just a problem in the united states. i am from england, yet i have been harrassed here as well as america, india and most of europe.
is it just a problem because of MY body? i don't know. should i blame myself? hell no. i also have no problem with anyone who enjoys being yelled at in the street. i personally don't know anyone who digs it.
what should i do when i am harrassed? should i ignore it and risk more harrassment or should i hide away and risk being more frightened later?

i don't think anyone has the answers to these questions, but i sure wish they did.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:29 / 03.05.02
well the computer just ate everything i wrote: basically, i have never asked a cat caller why they do it. but i would like to. i find it horribly intrusive, at the very least, to have some man (never had a woman do it) come out with even 'harmless' stuff, like 'cheer up love, it might never happen'. such arrogance is breathtaking. like someone quite happily in their own thoughts or not actually wanting to 'pretty' the world up for the men needs someone to help them remember their place, or that an inane remark will make life better. where i am at the moment (cornwall) people chat to each other, complete strangers in the street do it, and it's actually really nice - genuine and friendly. so it's not that i don't like to communicate. cat calling seems to me to be a demand to be the centre of attention. i'm not sure anyone here will say it is is a good thing, so we'll not get the lowdown on why it's done. does anyone who does it NOT want to exert power? you push your way into someone else's space, what else are you doing?
 
 
grant
17:40 / 03.05.02
I don't think catcalling is always sexual. I mean, getting yelled at or "hooted" at by distant strangers is something that just seems to happen a lot around me. Maybe it's a Florida redneck thing.
I'll go sit down now.
 
 
passer
17:49 / 03.05.02
suds-
To answer quickly, it isn't and no.

You are, of course, free to have your say. I don't have problem with that nor am I going to disregard you post because you're a feminist.

I'm not sure how you got feminist perspective is "less valuable" out of "wider, perhaps less feminist focused," but it certainly wasn't meant to try to silence feminist comment.

sfd- I guess my next question is where do you draw the line between small talk and harassment? As I said, perhaps I'm too optimistic about people, but I really believe that a disturbing number of "cat callers" just have no idea where than line is. Just think of the number of young idiots, who haven't quite figured out that sex and porn bear little relation to each other.
 
 
Ierne
18:33 / 03.05.02
Is this an American thing? A close friend of mine was Israeli and was always disappointed if she went running and was not cat called. However, she was the exception to most women I know who don't find it flattering in the least. – passer

I think that it depends on which "American" culture you're talking about. In Hispanic/Latino culture here in NYC, cat-calling is not seen in as offensive a light, and my personal experience has shown that Latino men get very pissed off if a woman reacts negatively to their attention, or brusquely rebukes their behavior (as I have done many, many, many times in my adolescent and adult life). It's an unspoken expectation on their part that women either take it as a compliment or laugh it off.

This is certainly not to say that ALL Latino men act like this or feel this way! (So please, if there are any hombres out there, please don't feel dissed.) But from growing up with a Latino father, in various Latino communities (The Lower East Side, Jamaica (Queens), and the neighborhood I live in now) my experience has been that Latin American culture has a different perspective on agressively chatting up women in the street.

Also, this may be strictly a NuYorican thing – different Latin American communities may treat this behavior differently. I'd like to hear from Miami, Brazil or West Coast peeps on this.

It would be interesting to hear how different geographical/cultural communities handle this – is it considered acceptable or not, how is it dealt with or not dealt with, and how are women who reject this behavior treated by those around them?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
20:36 / 03.05.02
I think men who do it honestly (in general) think the woman they're shouting at is "someone they'd like to do," but I also think cat-calling and street harrassment is a symptom of the fact that women are not fully valued as a whole human being. For what is cat-calling if not judging the appearances of the women on the street and rating them accordingly?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
20:49 / 03.05.02
the difference between harassment and small talk? hmm, i'd put it like this - if you're engaging someone else in some kind of conversation i.e. where the recipient of your unasked for remarks is allowed or spoken to in a way that requires a reply on something approaching an equal level, then it's small talk. if the recipient of an unasked for remark just has that remark/observation *directed at them* with no real engagement and even the possibility that it could be deemed hostile, then i would call that harassment.

and this isn't always sexual stuff at all. i've seen men driving around yelling stuff at just about anyone they pass by. so basically i find it at the very, very least incredibly rude and intrusive for anyone to get in my oranyone else's face without good reason. if someone on the bus or on the street wants a quick chat to pass the time or feel less lonely (i've done it myself) then that's good reason, as long as they're friendly and non-hostile. if someone wants directions, that is good reason - however bad a day i've had, i know what it's like to be lost so i make a real effort to help others. but if someone wants to yell something fucking inane at me, then that is not good reason to get into my space. and i credit people with enough intelligence to know where the line is.
 
 
SMS
03:02 / 04.05.02
It is a base, vulgar, tasteless, practice. I do not support it even for women who do. Women should not only not be treated as objects, but they should be discouraged from thinking of themselves in this way.

By the way, what does 'cheer up love, it might never happen,' mean? Is it something you would say to someone who is down? Does 'it' refer to something bad, because, if it doesn't, then why the devil should you cheer up?

I live in Colorado, a fairly conservative state. Cat-calling is not common in my social circles, nor do I often see it. I do not have a diverse cultural experience. I have some pretty conservative, non-feminist positions, sometimes.
 
 
Sleeperservice
08:17 / 04.05.02

I have much experience of this. I work in a garage in south London and lots of the guys I work with do this. It's almost always meant as a compliment.

I'm in two minds about it. While I would never (and have never) done it myself I can see how someone would be intimidated by it how ever it was meant. But why not let someone, who'll you probably never see again or even have the chance to talk to really, know that you like the way they look? To say it's objectifying women is true. And yet that is to deny a basic of human nature. We all do it all the time. Accept it. But I see people are doing their usual all-is-mind-we're-not-animals routine :P
 
 
The Knowledge
13:11 / 04.05.02
Quote:

“i have never asked a cat caller why they do it. but i would like to. i find it horribly intrusive, at the very least, to have some man (never had a woman do it) come out with even 'harmless' stuff, like 'cheer up love, it might never happen'. such arrogance is breathtaking. like someone quite happily in their own thoughts or not actually wanting to 'pretty' the world up for the men needs someone to help them remember their place, or that an inane remark will make life better”. (shortfatdyke) (?)

I think that if I said “cheer up love” to you in the street, It would be a good thing, and I wish more people did this.
 
 
suds
13:19 / 04.05.02
passer, sorry if i seemed cross in my reply. i had a very intense therapy session yesterday. i still don't understand why you want this debate less feminist focused, though.

sleeperservice -- "But why not let someone, who'll you probably never see again or even have the chance to talk to really, know that you like the way they look? To say it's objectifying women is true. And yet that is to deny a basic of human nature."
i might find a lady cute or dig the way a boy looks but i am not going to yell at them about it. the whole yelling thing is not something men have as a 'basic' of human nature. it's men exalting their power over the powerless and it's horrible, horrible. i don't agree with you excusing it at all.

sfd, you rock.
 
 
Ganesh
13:20 / 04.05.02
Given that one has absolutely no idea of the recent (and present) experiences of the "love" concerned, I'm really glad they don't.

My father died suddenly (some ten years ago now) when I was on a medical elective in Australia; it was Christmas Eve and I had to fly home surrounded by happy celebrants exhorting me to "cheer up, mate, it's Christmas". Okay, my being bereaved was hardly their problem but, oddly enough, I didn't cheer up.

And yeah, when it's a male-to-female thing, the dynamic is different.
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:48 / 04.05.02
may be wrong but I think sfd meant "be glad anyones noticing you at all". which is downright insulting - as if someone screaming at you about your ass should have you swooning in delight.

that shit isnt about how attractive we are or how attractive someone thinks we are, its about someone thinking that they are owed something because they bestowed a compliment on us.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:07 / 04.05.02
I wonder how much of it is a social thing, showing off to other men in the group. Obviously not all, since it does happen individually, but being in a crowd of like-behaving men will give individuals licence.

There are some people who think that the fact they think something gives them the right to be a public arsehole because, hey, they're only stating their opinion, it's you who have a problem with it. It strikes me that the sort of guy who would say "nice jugs" to a random woman in public probably enjoys interposing their opinions into someone else's life. I suppose it's a sort of forced intimacy, which is a power game.
 
 
Ganesh
22:24 / 04.05.02
In some ways, it's the Real Life version of "it was a JOKE! Grow a fucking SENSE OF HUMOUR, you FACIST!!!"...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:03 / 05.05.02
bk was right in what i was trying to get at - first of all, your day is supposed to be made because someone has barged their way into it with a stupid 'friendly' comment. which isn't friendly at all, when you get down to it: i think a lot of (straight) men *do* think women are there to make the place look nice, and if one isn't then there's sometimes a feeling of betrayal. i'm often lost in my own thoughts in public and i think i should have the right to be that way. and ganesh's experience shows how thoughtless people can be - if someone's really that bothered about 'cheering a person up' then they could politely ask if there's something wrong and LISTEN to them if there is. or would that be too much like hard work? it's like people who start a comment with the disclaimer, "no offense, but...." - and then you can be dead sure they're going to say something utterly offensive.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:06 / 05.05.02
i should add (or repeat what i've said a while back) that obviously i'm not over the moon or grateful when a man notices me. but i would also not be leaping with joy if a woman came out with the same thing.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
13:06 / 05.05.02
Wow. This is something with which I've had a good amount of experience. Things called out to me range from a somewhat shy "Excuse me. I just wanted to tell you that you are beautiful," to a somewhat intimidating "Love, love, love, hey sweet love, make sweet love," or "Mm, mm, mm--you fine" and still to a threatening, "Put some GODDAMNED clothes on!" or "Run bitch, run bitch, run!" [I had plenty of clothes on; I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt.]

I will admit to being flattered by comments like the first--ones that are just a very general almost sterilized appreciation of appearance.

I'm made very uncomfortable by any "compliment," no matter the tone, that focuses on any one part of my appearance that is more sexualized than my face ("ass," "tits," "legs"). The calls that could be compared to the middle one ("make sweet love"), which is most of them, make me extremely uncomfortable and very self-conscious of my body. The ones like the last, maybe it's the tone with which they are said, have frightened me so much that I cried. It's not just the things that are said; it's the whole effect of body language, tone of voice, proximity, time of day and other things in conjunction with the actual words that provoke my different reactions. For example: "Put some GODDAMNED clothes on!" was shouted angrily at me at night, out of a car, and the driver slammed on the breaks.

I'm not sure what their motivation is--in every case but the first, I refuse to accept that the comments are meant just as a compliment. I'm not sure if I should talk back to them or not; whether or not I should, I'm too scared to do that, and so I just continue on walking, running, whatever, pretending to ignore them.

Something else to note: I've very rarely received the intimidating cat-calls in the suburbs. When I lived in the suburbs and someone would yell at me (shoot, it must have only happened 4 or 5 times [from strangers] in the entire 21 years that I lived in the suburbs), I would be really confused; it was so unfamiliar. The times when it did happen, the power dynamic wasn't just from them being men, and me being a girl; there was often a pretty large age discrepency.

When I moved into a city, I almost never had a day without at least one cat call. It has changed how I dress; I dress to make myself unnoticeable.

I don't believe that comments meant solely as compliments would have this result.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:19 / 05.05.02
Alas, people do respond to this sometimes. From the casual flash at cat-callers in the street to an acquaintance of mine who picked up a bloke off a building site and shagged him in the taxi on the way to a party, to the lass I met the other day who was bubbling with glee at having taken her taxidriver to bed.

Go figure.
 
 
suds
11:09 / 06.05.02
today someone shouted at me 'change your glasses!' out of a car.
part of me was pleased that i hadn't been called a bitch and he hadn't commmented on my boobs.
how fucked up is that?
(and i would like to point out that my glasses are gorge and i'm not changing them)
(i would also like to point out that as the pikey bastard was in a car, i felt brave and bitchiekittie enough to shout at him to fuck off! hooray!)
 
  
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