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Gamer spam?

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ONLY NICE THINGS

10:15 / 03.05.02

Really not sure if this should be here, and really don't give a fuck.

A few questions.

1) Is Film, Theatre and TV the right place for a discussion of Role-Playing systems?

2) If not, are the gamers justified, having been "denied a homeland", to annex Film, Theatre and TV for conversations unrelated to film, theatre and TV?

3) Is there any strength in Trijhaos' opinion that Role-Playing Games are theatre? Or Zoom's that they are books (which makes more sense, since they kind of are, but less because they kind of aren't...).

4) If we don't give the gamers a forum soon, will their heads explode from the sheer pressure of desire to talk about gaming? Will there be an invasion? Civil strife?

5) What's wrong with the Conversation, anyway? One complaint was that it meant non-gamers (or "mundanes", as I believe they are charmingly known) would drop in on threads and take the piss, but..well...the Film, Theatre and TV bods seem not exactly to be creating a safe space for Elves.

I think this is a subject apart from Zoom's "spamming" of the fora, where the questions were relevant *to* the forum...

10:28 / 03.05.02

Well - one argument against putting RPG-related threads in the Conversation is that, where those threads have a lot of content and people have put a lot of energy into them, they might be unhappy with having them deleted after a month. This creates a bit of a problem for people who feel they have something serious to say about them... where do they go?

(Whether Potus's thread is fluff or spam I have no idea - I don't know the first thing about RPGs and other gaming systems)

I would think that RPGs might fit in more neatly in either a gaming forum (which would include other games as well, chess etc) in the Spectacle, or in Participation - as several people have pointed out in Potus's thread, they're more about participation than spectating. Would probably need a new forum for this though.

I certainly wouldn't be happy to have a great deal of RPG discussion in the Books forum (though the other moderators might differ here) - the thread that's there at the moment is fine because it seems to be concentrating on the merits of the writing in the games, but I think threads which veered from that path would be out of place.

On the other hand - it might be worth seeing whether the spate of RPG enthusiasm dies down after a week or so before we get too worried about it. I doubt anyone's head will explode if it turns out to be a temporary thing...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:29 / 03.05.02

What the hell is this? Now we have nouns describing disparate cultures within Barbelith? We have sides being drawn up? What the fuck are you all on? I'm the one who's just started a course of heavyweight mood altering body-chemistry balancing drugs, not you.

'Gamers' v the rest? Have you gone completely insane?

There's no need for this. The possibility of a Games (I loathe the term 'gaming') forum is under discussion. The one thing which is utterly pointless and unnecessary is for everyone to get all balkanised and shouty and planky about it.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:31 / 03.05.02

Said he in an angry, shouty voice.

Oh, well.

Look, ten seconds later, and with the massive benefit of hindsight and the wisdom of old age, the thing is this: no need for this to be a thing.

The Knowledge

10:39 / 03.05.02

I agree with Nick. Is Haus a troll or what?

To answer your initial questions Mr Haus (that luthor had shipped over to smallville):

1) Don't know. Don't ask me.

2) See answer 1.

3) Arguably yes.

4) Give the gamers their forum then!

5) Sorry, ignore me, I don't even really know what you are discussing.

I just wanted to pop in to this thread and say something to Haus. I've been here less than 48 hours and already I'm getting the impression that you like to set things on fire. No offence mate, but are you one of these internet nerds who thinks that people spend as much time reading your stuff as you spend writing it? I reiterate that this is not an insult – it is an honest criticism. I'm already getting pissed at the 'marvel at my indifference/verging on insulting' style that you post with. Maybe you might make a less concerted effort to patronise people? Honestly, you’re just making yourself look the wanker. (Also: I would have sent you this message privately but you failed to respond to my previous thread in the conversation, so……)

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:45 / 03.05.02

Umm...I didn't even know gamers were *called* gamers until Zoom used the term. I thought it was a self-chosen epithet to describe people who use role-playing games.

But...if we have threads about RPGs popping up all over the shop, it's just going to be confusing, and provide no clearer picture where RPG threads *should* go. Also, as K-C C alludes, it presents a challenge for moderators - move the thread, and if so where? Delete it? Modify it to be relevant to the forum? Steer it towards relevance to the forum? If threads proliferate, it's going to get confusing...

(PS - just for clarity "Really not sure if this should be here, and really don't give a fuck" was a quote from one of the posters in the "Game Theory" thread, not my own editorialising)

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:47 / 03.05.02

Gosh. I missed the chance to be PMed by Andrew Callow. I would never have washed my messages again.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:02 / 03.05.02

Oh Christ. You're not serious? You're saying Mumra is the infant Andrew? Is that just because you don't like it? (Mind you, you were right about the last one.)

11:17 / 03.05.02

I posted once about games in the TV section, I thought it was the most suitable place at the time.

I think a games forum would be a good idea, but thats only because Final Fantasy X is out this month and I'll need somewhere to praise/moan about it ....

So much for leaving Barbelith - is my new name correct Haus what does it mean ?

11:18 / 03.05.02

Well, I've just posted on that thread regarding the "theatre/not theatre" issue; to paraphrase, I see intelligent gaming as something like a closed improvisational performance.

I suppose it all depends on how you want to define the contents of that forum. Does this mean it should really be in "Creation"? I'm not sure that RPG stuff really belongs there either, it's participatory but not purely creative.

In fact I don't think there is a proper place for it right now, and there should be, and something needs modifying. I think film, tv & theatre is as fair a location as any. Perhaps just rename it to "film tv, theatre, role-playing". Whatever, as long as it does actually have a designated place. There's always going to be a little overlap, like comics and TV spill over into Conversation, but a specific area would be useful.

It would also keep us sad spotty geeks away from all you well-adjusted hairy-chested Buffy-watchers.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:30 / 03.05.02

Huh?

The Eye of Haus is upon you, sir. Step wary. Don't get your bandages caught in the door of your pyramid hideout as you sneak into the darkness to do no good, lest your plans be, erm, unravelled.

I swear, they must have had soooo much fun writng that show.

I think a 'games' discussion would probably swamp the Creation - it's not a high intensity forum except when there's a superhot topic starting. But a new forum under 'participation' might not be a bad thing. But honestly - would it really have such a high uptake? I'm not sure.

Tom, how hard is forum creation? Could we just try some and see, or is it a major headache? And is it likely to have bandwidth consequences?

11:44 / 03.05.02

But honestly - would it really have such a high uptake? I'm not sure.

No, I don't think it would either, and I can see the point about swamping Creation. That's why I think it should be incorporated into an existing larger forum like filmtvtheatre, but explicitly incorporated, so things could be preserved and wouldn't be just lost in Conversation. It's a valid subject, it's just a bit homeless right now.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:44 / 03.05.02

You know, that persecution complex really needs some looking into.

Check here for a suggested way to give Role-Playing Games a logical niche.

Ursavus - I think it's ursavus elemensis, you old bear, you.

11:58 / 03.05.02

Thank you, in my world you will now been known as Latino Haus and have an Eddie Guerrero style mullet....

Wasn't Metal Gear 2 a disappointment though?

New Zealand Story was great though...

pointless and uncalled for

12:01 / 03.05.02

For clarification, I placed the thread in FTT forum for a couple of reasons.

Primarily because I knew that there would be objections to it being placed there and rightly so (arguments to the contrary were for example reasons and based in grey areas).

In due consideration gaming should not be discussed there because there is a complete absence of relevance to the majority perception of what FTT should contain and also because there is an absence of moderators familiar enough with the subject matter and at best, in any given forum there may be a total of one.

I also wanted to start a thread based on a topic that isn't just fanboy wanking or leet heavy cheats and warez links and could develop into something useful for those that are intrested in gaming. In this instance a discussion on game theories could prove beneficial and improve the value of playing to the gamers.

Looks like I was right and I claim my chiny nickle.

12:42 / 03.05.02

Potus argument is kind of flawed as because in many cases the orginal poster is making no effort to express *how* RPG is relevent to any of the given fora they could be posted in. (Possibly because said poster wants to create a self forfilling prophesy of how gaming doesn't fit and thus needs its own space)

take the books thread for example there are element of books involved in role playing - but the source books for many RPG's are simply manuals and as such not particular enjoyable to read.

However choose your own adventure books most certainly ARE relevant as they and some, such the grailquest series, were actually quite funny and fun.

I could have posted this in the books forum, but have no desire to, because I have no interest in gaming and equally no desire to see an entire forum created to service the whims of a vocal minority. This is not a stance to 'get at the gamers' or deprive them of a homeland. People may recall how i didn't think setting up the artforum waas a worthwhile enterprise. And look how frequently that is used these days...

Oh and If you want an example of how self consciously spam-happy the pro-game lobby have now become see
here.

12:46 / 03.05.02

Man, it was a joke. Maybe before we have a game forum, we should all get a sense of humour.

Zoom.

Matthew Fluxington

12:50 / 03.05.02

I have no interest in gaming and equally no desire to see an entire forum created to service the whims of a vocal minority. This is not a stance to 'get at the gamers' or deprive them of a homeland.

That's pretty much my position on this as well - it's not really anything against gamers, but more to do with there's very few people who seem to want to USE this forum. Simply acquiescing to creating one is not the same thing, and I think it takes a GIANT leap of faith to assume that since the overwhelming majority of people registered to Barbelith aren't already chatting up the topics suggested for a gaming/fun forum, that they simply do not because there is no dedicated forum.

I still think it's a lot more reasonable for the small number of people posting here who would like to talk about gaming in-depth to start up a small off-shoot community, like a small message board or email list.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:54 / 03.05.02

I don't know: I can see the spam argument, sure, but it's a little harsh to suggest that this is deliberate abuse of the board. I'm not that big of a gamer anymore (not for the last decade or so, really) so I don't think I'd have much use for the forum myself, but doesn't the prevalence of gaming threads indicate that ppl are serious about this? I've had a look at one or two of the threads in question and they seem to be pretty topic-driven and non-fluffy.

12:55 / 03.05.02

Ooh, self-referential jokes on Barbelith? Ban him! Ban him!

in many cases the orginal poster is making no effort to express *how* RPG is relevent to any of the given fora they could be posted in. (Possibly because said poster wants to create a self forfilling prophesy of how gaming doesn't fit and thus needs its own space)

The usual process of forum allocation I thought was meant to go like this:
1. poster tries to decide what forum is most appropriate for topic
2. poster starts thread in forum
3. moderator decides if thread is appropriate for forum, and, if not, where it should go if it is appropriate for the board at all

All that is really needed right now is a a decision on where gaming threads should go. Is it really such an ideological challenge to decide on somewhere? And if there's nowhere directly appropriate, to include it under something else for the time being, until there can be a decision on whether there's a need for a more general "Gaming" or "Fun" or whatever forum?

13:00 / 03.05.02

there's very few people who seem to want to USE this forum

Who are all these folk arguing about it, then? Just a small vocal minority with multiple logins?

I still think it's a lot more reasonable for the small number of people posting here who would like to talk about gaming in-depth to start up a small off-shoot community, like a small message board or email list.

Well gee. Why doesn't everyone with a minority interest just do that? Minority does not mean irrelevant. I'm sorry, but this is coming off as prejudice again.

13:09 / 03.05.02

My two cents: what the board needs right now is most defintiely not another Spectacle-style forum. Unless the Revolution was also expanded you could kiss goodbye to any balance.

A similar argument started up some time ago about the perceived need for a videogames forum. The general consensus then was that the topic is too damn narrow at this moment in time for it to be worth devoting an entire forum to. If that's the case with videogames then it's most certainly also true for RPGs, a form of entertainment catering for a far smaller audience.

Depending on what aspect of RPGs the discussion is focussing on, I see no reason why that discussion could not be held in one of the current fora. Creation, Head Shop and Conversation would seem to cover all the bases.

13:12 / 03.05.02

Oops. Meant to add this:

If that's the case with videogames then it's most certainly also true for RPGs, a form of entertainment catering for a far smaller audience...

..and one that's not undergoing the same kind of (r)evolution.

13:14 / 03.05.02

"Fiction, Interactive and Non-Interactive"?

13:17 / 03.05.02

Will you all bloody shut up and stop complaining? We'll have a vote and leave it at that. If everyone would just sit down and start thinking about the various options to choose between..

ie.

Not having a gaming forum
RPG and Computer Games forum in The Spectacle
or something in the participation
or make em use the Conversation
or extend a current forum to apply to them as well...

then we can have an initial vote between them to see where the main sympathies lie....

pointless and uncalled for

13:19 / 03.05.02

I still think it's a lot more reasonable for the small number of people posting here who would like to talk about gaming in-depth to start up a small off-shoot community, like a small message board or email list.

And while we're at it should we all go back to where we came from, cut our hair, stop listening to the bloody awful racket and straighten-up.

Sorry if topics that we want to discuss don't conform to what you're interested in but that still is shit reason to ask us to take our gaming discussions elsewhere. We have a message board where we would like to discuss these things and as yet not one credible reason has been provided as to why we shouldn't

There are two simple and reasonable requests being put forward here.

1) That there be a forum that is suitable for gaming threads. I'm sure that there will be little objection if it is a shared forum or even an addition to an existing forum, provided that threads are not met with a barrage of posts stating that the thread doesn't belong there or excessive non-interest noise.

2) That it not be the Conversation for the following reasons. The Conversation is likely to attract a significant amount of non-interest noise which interferes with the progress and direction of a thread. Threads will not last for more than a month.

Perhaps people might care to explain why this is considered asking too much.

13:39 / 03.05.02

ERD has a point. The board shouldn't tilt towards spectacle or revolution, but be a balanced synthesis of both. I think if the general consensus and feeling of the board is that games (of any kind) don't deserve a forum of their own, then comics be expanded to Comics and Games. The two attract a similar enough audience that it should work alright. And if none of the moderators in Comics are familiar enough with RPGs or video games, I'll volunteer to moderate. There, that's my vote. I promise not to spam anymore, even if I was unaware that I was. And for the record, there are, at the very least, 13 people, including myself, actively participating in the RPG threads. Apart from Conversation, where the numbers are always higher, that's a significant percentage of the regular-posting populace.

Zoom.

14:06 / 03.05.02

I think a new forum in Participation is the best idea. It could have as wide a subject base as possible, and it wouldn't 'off-balance' the current Revolution/Spectacle status-quo, it would simply budge Participation up a bit..

..my, that was poorly phrased, but hopefully you gety my point..

And if nobody posts in it, then we can it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

It's not like everyone went into such dense speculation when the Art & Design forum was proposed .. do I detct a bit of cultural elitism?

"Art & Design? Recognised and important aspect of culture, let's have a forum right away!"*

"Gaming .. not really very important is it? .. wouldn't be enough interest .. just wanted by a minority .. not the direction we should be heading in.."

Personally, I can't think of a concept that's more 'quintessentially barbelith' than a bunch of people sitting around generating a series of narratives, characters and ideas for their own entertainment and amusement. A Barbelith games forum could be a great oppurtunity to remove this fine activity from the rubbish imagination-less fatbeard-ism that always eems to accompany it.

*and rightly so - I'm not having a go at the Art forum

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:08 / 03.05.02

Perhaps people might care to explain why this is considered asking too much.

I agree! And I hope for the same generous support from the "Gamers" (old buddies, old pals) in the establishment of my "sneering" forum, my "racketball" forum and my "transvestite ice hockey forum".

Onward to true democracy!

14:10 / 03.05.02

Should that be the "Sneering And Double Posting" forum?

14:14 / 03.05.02

Actually I DID argue that the ART forum would get very little traffic and - guess what? It doesn't.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:24 / 03.05.02

But is it worth having anyway? There is clearly a desire for an RPG forum, and even if it is mainly Invisible_Al, Zoom and Special Boy Potus talking about Call of Cthulhu I don't see the harm in particular.

The main argument against (apart from issues of destabilising the balance of creationand revolution) is, as I just suggested (twice), after that why should we not give a forum to anybody who decides to start shoving inappropriate threads into the permanent fora to show how much ze wants one...

14:38 / 03.05.02

I don't think it needs to be seen as setting a precedent.

pointless and uncalled for

14:52 / 03.05.02

Wow, who would have thought that Haus would get political about starting a new forum.

I admit that my methods were somewhat crude and I apologise for that. I certainly wouldn't support it as common practice, but people should bear in mind this example when the possibility of a new forum is being discussed.

I'll take my French Government impersonators prize now.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:03 / 03.05.02

Don't tell me, "political" is as bad as "intellectual"?

So, Potus thinks this *is* a precedent - people should bear in mind this example when the possibility of a new forum is being discussed. But a precedent involving what?

An interest group has decided to make their point by discarding the "New Topics" forum, and posting a whole bunch of threads.

Once more, I don't think that in general Zoom was "spamming"- his topics were relevant to the fora he posted in, and I was happy to participate in the "gamer mentality one", which I think is in itself quite interesting and would like to revisit later - until his Switchboard post, which was I fear a very Zoom "I drink the Potion of Nuance Invulnerability" moment. I do think Potus was spamming because, unless the mods decide to move it, there is currently a discussion in Film, TV and Theatre which has the square root of dick to do with Film, TV and Theatre.

Regardless of the virtues of any particular new forum or area, is this the way to go about persuading the world that one is a) an ornament to Barbelith and b) prime moderator material?

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