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"This topic is stupid and of no interest to anyone."

  
  

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Murray Hamhandler
20:20 / 02.05.02
In another forum, Zoom dropped this tidbit for us to ponder:

If you can't stand fluffy threads, I don't know why you look at them. This is one thing I've never understood, actually. If there's a discussion going on that holds no interest for me, or that I think is a waste of time, I don't waste my time on it. What drives people to comment on things that they're not interested in?

...a question which I myself was going to ask today.

So. Why is it? Why do there seem to be so many posts saying, "This topic doesn't interest me. It's stupid. Please stop talking about it." I'm honestly curious about this, because I totally am in Zoom's zone on this one. I've never felt the need to post anything about how disinterested I am in the dozens of threads on the board that disinterest me. Maybe it's just because I have a limited amount of time that I can actually spend online and I would, therefore, rather post about things that I had an interest in. Maybe Zoom and I are nuts. Whaddaya say, 'Lithers? What's the frequency on this one?
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:25 / 02.05.02
Dunno about you, Arthur, but I'm definitely nuts.
Ask anyone.

Zoom.

p.s. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Ignore me, listen to Arthur.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:27 / 02.05.02
Simple: bad money drives out good.

It's a matter of attention conservation, and sorting out which threads, among the dozens in any forum, I wish to read and in which I wish to participate. The bright and shiny gems are there to be found, but it's a slog to sift through the mountains of horseshit in which they are lodged.

The more noise there is on a channel, the harder it is to hear the signal.

So in the immortal words of Baby Pepperspine aka John Odin:

HEY ASSHOLES STOP CLOGGING UP THE REVOLUTION WITH YOUR PSYCHIC WANKFEST
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:28 / 02.05.02
And in a more serious vein:

I think it has to do with someone perceiving a particular topic as detrimental to their perfect Barbelith. I don't understand it myself, as I'd love to see everyone have their perfect Barbelith. But, and I'm assuming here of course, when someone sees a topic that just doesn't fit with their vision of the board, rather than just ignore it they feel they have to speak out against it. Again, I can't understand it, but it happens. Or, at least, that's my theory. It may actually have something to do with ninjas. Or pirates. Or lizards. Or The Knowledge.

(Did I miss any scapegoats?)

Zoom.
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:34 / 02.05.02
Hmmm, fair point Jack. I hadn't thought of it that way. And I can certainly see your POV in regard to say, the Headshop, or the Laboratory. These are places where fluff should be minimized in the extreme. Hence the usefulness of the Conversation. But when someone thinks that a particular topic doesn't belong here, and not because it's fodder for other forums, but just because that person doesn't see it as valuable, why post anything in the thread. The Conversation is used for stuff that might not ever get a response. But if it does then surely it should be here, even if one or two people don't think so. And if a topic in conversation is going strong, or starting to, voicing your objection isn't going to stop it.

I'm not trying to silence voices here. I'm just genuinely curious why this happens. I mean, it's not like it's an IRL conversation where you'd be able to hear it even if you weren't a part of it. You can always choose to not be a part of anything here. I just wonder why people need to let everyone know that they're not going to be a part of something?

Zoom.
 
 
Utopia
20:36 / 02.05.02
you can always scapegoat me...

it's because people have a hard time being comfortable when their presence is unnecessary. they think, "ooh, i can't show off my wanky good brains here so no one will ever know how much they should love me." me? i'm comfortable being obsolete. in fact, i love it. it's my american zen.

and i'm not against intellectual threads. that would be fucking ridiculous. but let those who want to sow their wild oats do it. soon, i predict, most of us in conversation will stop goofing off and return to the rest of the board full time. but if you have no time to be hoity-toity intellectual and you still want to hear from your peeps on the board, yo, why not?...
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:41 / 02.05.02
A lot of the time, it seems almost like a value judgement. Like saying that one's disinterest in a topic invalidates said topic. Buuuut...what about everyone else? I've never felt so high and mighty as to say that a topic of no interest to me would, of course, have no interest to anyone else. I mean, people's interests and points of view are so varied here. I don't understand why we can't just accept that people are going to talk about things here that we ourselves may not be interested in, whether we like it or not.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:43 / 02.05.02
As a moderator, I express concern that anybody should feel excluded from discussion in Barbelith. While I acknowledge that many people here hold strong views, and that there should be a certain amount of give and take in the understanding that one's own ideas may prompt strong responses, I would certainly plead for tolerance and understanding wherever possible. Hey, just because we all share this world doesn't mean we all see it the same way.

I would, humbly, add that moderators have a valuable role in maintaining a degree of focus while at the same time allowing debates to grow organically.

As Haus, I would suggest that you grow the fuck up. Just as Special Boy Potus has yet to offer any evidence of a single serious thread ever, ever being derailed by non-het flirting, I am waiting for anybody to offer up a topic that has been disbarred from the Conversation for irrelevance, fluffiness or indeed any reason other than possibly Uncle Knodge expresing a desire to RAPE SOME DYKE UNTIL THEIR ARSE BEGS FOR MERCY.

The Head Shop, the Switchboard and the Laboratory have very specific remits. Tolerating the peaceful children demanding het rights through earfucking, or hearing interminable rants about how all women are evil bitches are neither integral to that remit. If they belong anywhere, they belong in the Conversation, where people are free to respond to them however they see fit. It being the Conversation. That is why threads which three moderators (ie almost all the moderators in any given area) feel are not appropriate to that area are generally moved to the Conversation.

The only objection raised to a thread in the Conversation recently was Mumrowledge speculating as to what sort of noises various Barbeloids make during sex. This was seen as invasive and unwelcome, and an attempt (I suspect, though I have no wish to put words in Nick's mouth) to put uppity women back in their place by locating them firmly and fairly in the arena of getting fucked by men.

If this is the source of your opprobrium, I suggest starting a thread in the Policy entitled "I demand the right to speculate as to how 'Irene' or Mordant Carnival or (insert uppity name here) would sound when reduced to mewling submission on the end of my veiny bangstick". If not kindly explain, with examples, what exactly you feel you are being oppressed by.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
23:53 / 02.05.02
Ummmmmm...

Actually not at all what I was talking about, Haus, but thanks for the attempt. I (and I think I speak for Zoom here as well) was referring to the threads which are (usually) fairly innocuous in nature yet make some people feel the need to chime in and let everyone else know how purposeless the topic of conversation is. Or boring. Or old. Or whatever. For instance, the "Fighting the Barbelith power?" thread was rebuffed by Tom on the grounds that the 'argument' (as it were) was old and pointless to him, so why even bring it up? My whole purpose in starting this thread was to try to figure out why anyone who writes a post such as this feels the need to write it. Okay. It's old and pointless to you. Is it a problem that we're discussing the issue? I mean, it almost seems like the fact that anyone's discussing the topic at hand is taken as a personal affront in these situations, and I see this happen fairly often here. I guess I'd like to figure out why that is. It's fine to disagree, positively integral to a healthy society in fact, but if you're going to disagree, tell us why you disagree! And don't act as if your disapproval should be taken as an implicit final word to the conversation!

No one said anything about oppression or suppression coming into play here. Mine is a stance of simple curiosity towards the matter at hand. The unsolicited antagonism really isn't appreciated.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
the Fool
00:31 / 03.05.02
I have a feeling the "Fight the Barbelith Power" thread was an embarrased apology of sorts by Rage. Without looking like she was apologising because, well that just wouldn't be Rage.

She posted something inappropriate in a serious thread, and then sort of said 'sorry for that, I didn't mean to be inappropriate... err but I am inappropriate blah blah blah...'

all without stepping outside the Rage fictionsuit.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:15 / 03.05.02
The great thing about a message board is that if you are uninterested in something, you can ignore it. Just like what we tellthe right wingers about sex and violence on TV, right?

There is a LOT of stuff here that I don't read about. Partly because of time and partly because I don't much care. I don't think ANY of them bring down the board to a different level (newsarama, anyone?) because we all try to bring the conversation up to a certain level.

But this navel gazing we are all going through lately is a bit silly. It's Tom's house. We are just invited to sit on the couch and chat.
 
 
Captain Zoom
02:11 / 03.05.02
I really get the odd feeling that this'll all come to naught.

Haus, sorry you felt we needed that vitriolic little display, but you absolutely misunderstood. Though if we'd actually meant what you thought, it was perfectly understandable. Here's the thing. Imagine for a second that I hadn't already posted in this thread, and then I came along and said "This conversation is pointless. I don't know why you people are even here." And that was it. I'm trying to figure out the impetus for such an action. As is Arthur, I believe. I unfortunately cannot come up with a concrete example, though when I do come across one I'll post it. If a conversation is indeed so repulsive or infuriating to an individual, why bother adding to it?

That's it. That's my last reiteration of this point. I apologize if I was at all unclear. Or if I still am.

Zoom.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
02:28 / 03.05.02
Well, then, okay. To make it slightly less navel-gazey. Imagine it in real life. You're having a conversation w/someone in a semi-public place. A party perhaps. It may be a serious conversation, it may not be. It really doesn't matter. Suddenly, someone nearby who has been eavesdropping interrupts, telling you that the topic of your conversation is boring him, w/o adding anything else to the conversation. You'd be all like, "What the...?", and justifiably so, it would seem. There just doesn't seem to be much point to it. The person who interrupted may have been more than welcome to join in on the conversation or ignore it completely, but he or she chose the course of action that he/she did for some reason. I wanna know what that reason might be!

And another thing (while I'm at it)... What is w/the whole "novelty=validity" argument that comes up all the time? Like, if something has been discussed to death in one person's circle, it lacks validity as a topic of conversation in other circles.

Again, I don't think that this is Barbe-specific. These are communicative barriers that pop up in real-world interactions. At least they are in my world.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:55 / 03.05.02
In terms of Rage's thread, or threads about The Knowledge; I think it's less to do with silencing those who have yet to chime in with their highly original thoughts and opinions on the matter, and more to do with those people on the board who have been here a bit longer knowing well enough that these are dead-end discussions which are repetitive and from which little is gained.

As for the types of conversations which pop up to be met with "ah, we've talked about this before, there's another thread for that", I think that those people who start them are made to look a bit lazy, since we have archives of all old threads dating back to nearly a year ago. There's no good reason why more people don't go back and read old threads, or revive old ones rather than start new ones.

I tend to think that many of the assumptions/accusations being made in this thread may have a lot more to do with some posters' insecurity than any de facto practice in this community.

I do find it troubling that there seems to be a growing number of posters who are voicing feelings of inadequecy and insecurity in how they relate to the more 'intellectual' elements of Barbelith, and seem to be making some effort to push the community in an anti-intellectual direction for the sake of their own comfort.
 
 
Captain Zoom
03:20 / 03.05.02
people on the board who have been here a bit longer knowing well enough that these are dead-end discussions which are repetitive and from which little is gained

revive old ones rather than start new ones

But how can you ever be sure? Granted with discussions about Knowledge it's really a moot point. Tom won't let him back on, so regardless of whether you thing he's funny or obnoxious, he's gone. (or so we think....) But with other topics, a "Who Are You Really" thread, for example, which pops up every four or six months, how can you be sure that the thread will just repeat it's previous incarnation? You'll have completely different people participating, so the thread by its very nature will be different.

I think the trouble with reviving old threads is that they're sometimes overwhelmingly large. The vast majority of people seem to post from work, or have limited time, so re-reading a 7 or 8 page topic is not a high priority. Granted, it is a bit lazy, but for those with no choice in how long or how much internet time they have, the wiser course of action is to start a new thread that's a little more manageable.

have a lot more to do with some posters' insecurity

I'd be interested in your justification for that. I think maybe when someone chimes in a tells a group that their conversation is not worth having, it may well produce a little insecurity. But it also shows a real lack of respect for our fellow Barbelithers. If a thread isn't disrespectful or insulting, what makes it any less relevant than any other thread? If a sufficient amount of people are interested in a topic, regardless of how mundane, why should anyone else speak up and say it's a waste of time and not even back it up.

I think this discussion is far too BArbelith-centered. I've had similar things happen to me in meat space, and I wonder what the impetus is. Does anyone do stuff like that IRL, or is it just easier to do it virtually, where you don't have to deal with reactions if you don't want to?

push the community in an anti-intellectual direction

I don't think anyone's doing any such thing. But there has to be room for not-so-high brow conversation. Revolution and sub-culture are not just about high ideals. A spiritual, intellectual or political revolution cannot function if it doesn't address, for lack of a better word, base issues. I can't create a brand new concept in creativity if I don't have a place to sleep and enough to eat. The revolution has to happen on all levels, and it is counter-productive to try to separate the base from the ideals.

Which is so not what this thread is about. Sorry for the rot.

Zoom.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
03:28 / 03.05.02
Talking neither about taboo subjects or archived threads here. I'm talking about people who think they've got it all figured out when it comes to a particular topic and bring conversation to a halt w/something akin to, "Don't you have anything new to say?/It's all been said before." As in, the knowledge you seek exists somewhere in the world... Why don't you already know the answer to your question?

I have rarely felt inadequate or insecure in regards to the more 'intellectual' elements of Barbelith. I am not making an effort to "push the community in an anti-intellectual direction for the sake of (my) own comfort". I do, however, see intellectualism as its own kind of crutch and, as such, do not fully trust it. Many many many 'intellectuals' that I've known find it almost impossible to admit when they're wrong and will go to great and sometimes unsavory lengths to prove that they're 'right', or at least more 'right' than the pleb they're arguing with, because that ultimately matters more to them than conceding that someone who disagrees w/them might have a point. As long as this isn't the case, intellectualism is all well and good in my book. I don't know if I was among the throng being referred to here, but I thought I'd cover my bases w/my take on it, for what it's worth.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:07 / 03.05.02
In a lot of ways, I tend to view the Conversation as like R'n'R- when you're done making your serious points, and wrestling with weighty topics, you can take a breather, and indulge in fluff without taking it back into the middle of someone's heartfelt discussion. The noise/bandwidth issue is, of course, true.
I mean, I guess if something HAS been done to death, and not just years ago once, but all the time, then there may be a reason for pointing this out. Otherwise, registering disinterest strikes me as being somewhat like the people who phone the "Don't know" number on TV polls.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:34 / 03.05.02
You know, every time you scarequote "intellectual", an angel dies.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:39 / 03.05.02
P.S. "Disinterested" means you have no interest, in the sense of investment on either side, and can thus be relied upon not to act in a self-interested manner.

"Uninterested" means you do not find (say) a topic interesting.

P.P.S So, with the exception of Tom pointing out that "I like to squitter nonsense on serious threads because I'm a rebel, me" is a pretty old song, we have yet to establish a single demonstration of this tendency. Not exactly Gojira vs. Mothra, so far...
 
 
Dao Jones
08:07 / 03.05.02
True that some people use intellectual frameworks as a way of insisting that the world should or does function in a way it patently does not. That's bad practice, not a reason to mistrust 'intellectualism'.

Good God, that there should be such a word.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:11 / 03.05.02
My two cents... a lot of people on the board love the sound of their own 'voice' far too much. They also truly believe that their own 'voice' carries more weight than others, largely because of the large volume of posting time they've accumulated, even if they'd never dream of admitting to themselves or anyone else.

I've seen soooo many people posting 'with the voice of authority' for no large or impressive reason. The "This topic is pointless and uninteresting" bollocks is just another example. Rather than leave the topic and go and find another they find more stimulating (fluff or otherwise), they feel the overweaning need to let everyone know that They Don't Appreciate It. And, bearing in mind that everything, even fluff, has an internal logic and context, they end up being the noise clogging the signal of everyone else's posts.

People on a board like this believing that their own opinion is sufficient to decide what falls into signal and what falls into noise... words fucking fail me. Consensus opinion is one thing - assuming that your voice IS consensus opinion is another.

And it does happen, all the time, so please don't be so disingenuous as to demand examples of a phenomenon that's continually repeated in varying forms on a regular basis, here and in the real world. When you do that, you sound like Tony fucking Blair.
 
 
The Knowledge
10:17 / 03.05.02
There speaks the voice of authority.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:19 / 03.05.02
You mean like yardie-style violence? Happens all the time, and the fact that you can't come up with any examples has no bearing on that? My aunt's cousin got mugged by a yardie in broad daylight, you know.

Asking for an example of something being compalined about is not "disingenuous". It's pretty standard practice.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:21 / 03.05.02
No, there speaks the voice of narky rantiness. I reserve the right to go BLAH BLAH BLAH on occasion and be indiscriminate with the shitty stick, especially with {Babylon 5} What's Been Going On Recently {Babylon 5}...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:23 / 03.05.02
Haus, me old muffin, are you seriously saying that you've never (e-e-e-e-ever) come across an example of this yourself, in the time you've been here? I mean, really? Because I've come across a fuckload, and it's usually the same people pronouncing Thready Death Sentences. I shall mention no names. already I hear sirens in the street outside. I must flee...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:33 / 03.05.02
Well, seeing as I already apparently grabbed the wrong end of the stick once (albeit in a way that FELT SO RIGHT), I'd just like to know the sort of thing we're supposed to be dealing with here.

Just blame my larger-than-life personality...

I WAS THE FIRST EVER UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPION AND YOU'LL NEVER, E-E-E-E-E-E-E-VER TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME!
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:40 / 03.05.02
I shall scour the 'Lith. Leave no scone unbuttered. Until I have found the example that you so desperately seek. Hardcore 24-hour rules... first egg to find one gets to be an omlette...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:43 / 03.05.02
Check my posts. I do it a lot.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:46 / 03.05.02
Personally I find intellectual discussion referred to as: "hoity toity," the desire for more (please god, not more!) "Not-so-highbrow conversation," and arthur's comment about "intellectuallism as a crutch" (which he actually has a point with) kind of disturbing here on Barbelith.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about hair and whatnot just as much if not more than the next gal, but I think intellectual analysis and debate is at the core of Barbelith. I do personally think the intellectual quality of the conversation has gone down, and while I think there's definitely a place for fluff, one of the things on Barbelith that I have enjoyed is the possibility for "brainy fluff."

Even though I've been here a long time, you will never catch me saying "We've been here before, " even if we have. Mainly because for the most part, if it's a bunch of new folks discussing an idea that's all ready been discussed new ideas will still be generated. But really what ARE we going to learn by yet another personality quiz? BORING.

Still as far as I'm concerned barring the offensive d whatever you want to discuss, go to it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:04 / 03.05.02
We're going to learn what sort of legos we are, of course.

I dunno... I don't like the whole "what a stupid topic" thing. At least people could explain why the topic is so stupid- ie, it's been done before on many occasions, it's based on a fallacy, etc, etc.

On the other hand, sometimes a topic is genuinely inimical or tends towards encouraging dangerous behaviour, and this needs to be pointed out.
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:31 / 03.05.02
as far as the tired "ooh, thats been done before": with new members coming and old members going, peoples ideas being consistently alter, this is an ever-evolving community. just because somethings been discussed at one point doesnt negate the need or desire to discuss it again, with the potential for fresh perspectives
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:54 / 03.05.02
Methinks we need a whole new forum for discussing the semantics and intricae of this board because there seems that there is nothing that the posters love more than the sound of their own voice espousing their own theories on that this board is, should be and has become.

*places bucket of salt on the table that you all might take a handful with this post*

Meanwhile I'm fairly convinced that Mr. Coates is busy in the basement of his immense Pimlico georgian town house pondering whether or not to sell his work with this board to the corporation responsible for all of those Sim games.

Simbarbelith - for the measly sum of a shiny nickel and your sanity.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:45 / 03.05.02
I guess what this all comes down to in the end (for me, anyway) is an examination of a Barbe-specific instance of a larger issue of problematic communication. If, as has been stated on numerous occasions, Barbelith is seen by its members as a true community of sorts (or at least on its way towards that goal), I think that it's helpful to examine these issues of problematic communication in order to improve communication w/in the community. Especially seeing as how the written word is essentially our only form of communication here (meaning that we have nothing like body language, for instance, to play off of here). I would like to examine these instances of problematic communication in an attempt to get at their root causes and also to (hopefully) suggest that there might be another way for people to say what they're trying to say (or consider whether what they're trying to say is beneficial to the conversation in the first place).

And for the record, I in no way see an anti-intellectual slant as necessarily devoid of intelligence. Someone (I wonder who...?) will surely pick me apart on semantic grounds here, but when I take an anti-intellectual stance (which, when I do, is rarely very severely anti), I'm thinking more in terms of intellectual stuffiness vs. playfulness and a (non-condescending) sense of humor, or intellectual rigidity vs. a more Zen-like surrender to feeling and instinct, than I am in terms of intellectualism vs. blatant ignorance. I think that this is often a valuable stance to take, IMHO.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
Ganesh
10:56 / 04.05.02
I find the "what a stupid topic" and the "what a stupidly intellectual topic" approaches equally irritating. I think it's important to take examples on a case-by-case basis, though, as it's difficult to generalise about what's, say, 'too trivial for the Headshop'.

As far as the "voice of authority" stuff goes, I think it's important to acknowledge that this is often a two-way process rather than simply X assuming they're in a position to pass Absolute Judgment. An example: threads on depression and antidepressants appear every few months; I really am in a position to discuss these with a fair degree of (medical/psychiatric) authority, and I'm frequently called upon to do so. I don't particularly find that "boring" but it can be repetitive to explain for the ninth or tenth time the difference between unhappiness and depression or the side-effects of Prozac. In general, I don't mind it too much - and I recognise that what's retreading old ground to me is often vital/necessary for the poster concerned - but on days when I don't feel like posting, I can be a little cranky about it.

Point being, some individuals here are better equipped to discuss certain issues (other examples include Rosa, Ria, Crunchy on trans issues, Cameron Stewart on comic artists, etc.) but, like me, may feel a certain amount of ennui on entering discussion. I think it's important to forgive a little "we've talked about this before" grumbling and understand it's generally not aimed personally.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:48 / 04.05.02
Ok. Some of the comments... Firstly - fighting the barbelith power. This thread is not about expressing a viewpoint, it's about describing a form of behaviour on the board. It's simply not ok for people to just wander around the place trying to fuck up other people's conversations with no objective in mind. And not only is it not ok, it's also really really not subversive or interesting. The point I was making is that the person concerned thought they were being all cool and interesting, and actually they're not - when they behave in that way, they're just annoying. Nothing more than that. And it's boring. It's really really boring. And those of us who've been around a while know it's boring, because it's happened loads of times before. And every time, we've been bored by it. And every time nothing interesting has come from it except a general raising of the grumpy level around the board.

Perhaps I'm being overly savage on that thread. Actually I almost certainly am. I'm sorry, everyone. Really. But I think my point remains intact nonetheless - there's behaviour on the board (and advocating behaviour on the board) and there's content ON the board. Really dumb behaviour should be encouraged not to happen - and what that rough code of conduct should be is something that we work out between us.

Perhaps content is a more difficult arena...

The thing with the posts that you make is that every post that anyone writes on the board is one extra post that EVERYONE else has to plough through when looking for the stuff that they individually are interested in... And it can be time consuming - particularly when (like me) your exposure to the board might be limited to two or three relatively short-occasions during the day.

So if there are nine hundred people on the board, then for each piece of posting effort YOU are making, there is nine hundred individual reading or filtering efforts that have to be made by other people on the board. And if each of THOSE post once, then you'll be exposed to nine hundred new posts over the day. It's a hell of a lot of content to sift through. And if you're not going to read everything then you have to have mechanisms in place which help direct you to where you want to go...

For example - we have the title of the thread. It would be considerably easier for people to not get annoyed by threads about subjects that didn't interest them if they could see immediately what they were and could remember exactly what they were between visits to the board. If you saw a thread in Film called 'Ominous Electric Breathing' you probably wouldn't immediately guess that it was about Star Wars. And if you hated Star Wars then you'd have to open that page up. And then you'd be frustrated. And then you'd get narked. And worse, two hundred threads later you might return to that page. And see 'Ominous Electric Breathing' and have forgotten what was in it. And then have to click on it. And then get narked again.

In addition we have the forums and their names. These didn't arrive by accident. We've had years of changes and adaptations - the latest one being the subsumation of the help forum into the policy. But there have been many other organisational structures... The ones we've got at the moment seem to most adequately reflect the range of interests and fascinations on Barbelith. For the most part they work. But there are inevitably discussions which cause problems. Would the person who is interested in film and only really spends time in the film forum be interested in the graphic design of Metropolis. Probably yes! But would one of the devotees of Art and Design be? Yes. Very definitely. So the process of which forum things go into has a direct relationship to which audience is going to be most interested in it.

And there's a corollary to that. There's a type of person that makes Barbelith a particularly good place to hang out. This type may be intellectual, they may not be intellectual - but it's a type that's engaged and fascinated and excited by stuff. They'll get involved in debates and they'll allow themselves to be challenged. This type of people are what make barbelith so interesting and so different from so many other web communities. And if that type leaves, then Barbelith will be substantially the poorer. And should they leave then everyone else will leave shortly afterwards, because it will no longer be an interesting place to hang out...

So what I'm saying is basically:

1) IN THE MAIN FORA: Every post you make, every thread you start, is an invitation to conversation but it's also a burden of time on everyone else who uses that fora. If it doesn't interest or engage with a decent amount of people then it's more burden than boon. So try and keep on topic when you can. Try not to spam the boards. If you don't agree with a point of view, say so - but try not to waste your post. You're not only wasting your time, you're wasting everyone elses...

a) SO WRITE IN THE RIGHT FORUM
b) THINK BEFORE YOU POST - ARE YOU TALKING TO PEOPLE OR ARE YOU JUST ACTING OUT?
c) REMEMBER A POST IS A BOON - IT'S ALSO A BURDEN!

2) IN THE CONVERSATION: We made a place which can be treated like a chatroom - fast and fluid - spontaneous and wilful - precisely because people need a place to vent, express themselves, get to know each other and crack bad jokes. All communities need a space like it. But it's precisely designed to make sure that when people post on the rest of the board they do so because they feel they have something to contribute or they want to disagree.

3) THREAD TITLES & ABSTRACTS: If everyone on the board was careful about writing clear titles to their threads (or just a little bit clearer than they are at the moment) then these frustrations would be less obvious. We can't institute a library categorisation scheme of course, but summarising what you actually want to talk about in your title will help people skip things that they're not interested in, help you figure out if it's in the right forum and brings the people who want to talk about that stuff directly to your thread....

And abstracts, although they might not seem crucial at the moment WILL BECOME MORE SO. Use them. They're important!

4) USE THE SEARCH FACILITY

If you have a question you want answering or a topic that you think should be addressed, then it can't do any harm to check the search facility first! I know it's not brilliant, but we ARE going to be working on that. Bring an old thread back to life if you want to add something. It's not hard. And it might save people getting frustrated with you for doing it...

I hope that's answered your questions. I think people get frustrated and snappy when they're asked to do more intellectual work finding what they want to talk about than talking about it, when they spend more time explaining why something shouldn't be in the forum it's in than talking about the subject itself.

Think about your own topics! ARE they stupid?! Do you REALLY expect people to be interested in them? Are you honestly looking for a conversation, or are you looking to make a point? Post well and this problem shouldn't arise.

In return I think you'll find that people take EVERYTHING that one posts more seriously. Or at least they'll listen carefully. And yes, we'll have topics repeating. But let's let them be actual topics and not another conversation started about the way this place is run...
 
  

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