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Don't touch this thread, you'll get it all fat...

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
08:16 / 02.05.02
Posted elsewhere by Thiazi:

I would say that the whole anti-obesity thing stems from our tribal history, when food was scarce. Back then, the fact that someone else was fat meant that he was using all of the resources, and you might have starved as a result. Of course, with the abundance of food today, this isn't a major issue.

Yes, I understand that in Afghanistan people are actually encouraged to overeat massively because otherwise the roads get clogged with all the brisket and chocolate cake that rains from the sky. I love Americans.

However, the assumption that just because *I* can eat my own weight in pork rinds that everyone else can notwithstanding, do you hate the fat, and, if so, why? Because, contra Thiazi, being obese is associated with being poor? Because it offends your aesthetic sense? Because it takes up space on public transport? Because it is a metaphor for the metastising consumption of the Western world?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
08:52 / 02.05.02
Once saw one of those Jerry Springer-a-like shows on obesity, and I remember one woman saying she could not get up off a couch unless her (equally substantial) daughter stuck a chair in front of her and sat on it so she could haul herself upright. That's a good example of the aspect of obesity that annoys me more than anything. If you choose to be obese (alright, it's not that simple, but I'm trying to exclude genetic obesity if such a thing exists) that's fine, but don't you dare expect me to support it.

Hadn't considered the 'unfair share of resources' angle, though for us First Worlders that extends to rather more than food...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:00 / 02.05.02
An alternative to Thiazi's argument might be: that, since food was scarce during 'our tribal history' (of course food is still scarce in many places - funnily enough the same places which are categorised as 'developing'...), being fat was actually a sign of prestige and power, because the man with the most was richest. This idea has been propounded by many people ('the sultan's wives were voluptuous because they dined on sweets and lived an indolent life in the harem...', common Victorian orientalist trope) but I am not sure what current thinking is on the subject.
 
 
Ganesh
10:32 / 02.05.02
I just love grand statements about "our tribal history"...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:58 / 02.05.02
.....when we all had face paint and New Zealand accents. Indeed.

But enough dogpiling on the simpleton. What about fatness? Ganesh, as I understand it your relationship wiht body fat is of another order again, f'rexample- how do you think that plays with received impressions?
 
 
The Monkey
11:21 / 02.05.02
Thanks for starting the topic, Haus...I was actually planning to initiate a thread on body image and fatness.

Forget going back to "tribal history" - portiliness was a sign of financial success less than a century ago...I can remember seeing those catalogue ads in the old Sears-Roebuck thingys for patent medicines guanranteed to make your children "fat as pigs." In a good way. The Victorian ideal for "healthy" men was paunchy and barrel-chested.

And there are still a lot of regions where largeness...relatively overweight rather than under...is considered attractive (in both genders), or at least a good thing. India in a vague fashion comes to mind for more rounded/curvey people, but South India, especially Karnataka, is definitely an exception to the standard Western body aesthetic. Samoa, too, as well as many other Polynesian cultures still consider a certain type of fatness attractive, although the specifics of the aesthetic escape me.

My personal theory on American attitudes towards fatness, and specifically obesity, are strongly codified with modern stereotypes of region and social class...although I wonder if such a codification would carry across racial tropes.... Anyway, my point would be almost a Mintzian-by-way-of-Marx analysis of how food consumption and resulting body image signifies identity.
First of all, fatness equals nonactivity in many people's eyes...not simply laziness, but mental inactivity, indolence, apathy. At the same time, it marks lack of thrift; over-consumption. In many ways, it's like an extension of the Protestant Ethic to the body image.

The easiest target of the mapping is the poor, but most particularly the Southern rural poor that are typically marked "welfare moms" and "white trash," a group also consistently stigmatized as stupid, indolent, etc. There is a leap to associate mental and physical inactivity, thus reinforcing an image of an irredeemable subset of the population. The Jerry-Springer watch-the-freakshow aspect of this is pretty strong, not to mention the whole self-esteem by contrast thing. Of course, all of this judgement tends to overlook the economic prefactors to consumption that leads to obesity, that obesity is more likely amongst the poor given the staple diet that they find affordable (high-starch, high sugar...what Sidney Mintz described aptly as "proletarian hunger killers"). In the realm of the "white collar" one finds specific professions associated with fatness, but by extension also with "fat" mental traits...a certain kind of not-achieving personality.

Leanness and fitness are signs of success, by contrast...the ability to have time to do exercise is a marker of financial success as measured by opportunity for leisure activity, as well as possession of the intelligence to care about physical health (because ego maintenance is one of the sacred virtues of the modern age).
 
 
The Monkey
11:30 / 02.05.02
As for metaphors for the metasizing consumption of the Western World, I'd say people who spend hours at Bally's working on "perfect abs" are just as much a sign of decadence. One could, of course, get the same body by working all day in a sugar cane plantation...and drop dead at forty of old age.

Fatness means too much of the wrong types of food...which give the pricing system of foodstuffs in America, generally equals eating on the cheap. A gym body, on the other hand, represents leisure time and capital devoted simply to the aesthetic cultivation of muscle groups...just because it's not consumption in the sense of face-stuffing doesn't mean it isn't extravagant, silly, and representative of the West's overindulgences..
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:30 / 02.05.02
There's actually an article on this in the Guardian today - here -which pretty much says that it's down to the cheapness of (as Monkey says) high-starch, high-fat, highly processed food, and the lack of opportunity for walking around as part of daily routine (i.e. exercise which isn't class- or gym-based). Article left a rather bad taste though, as it displays the unfortunate and snotty attitude that 'Europeans' are somehow naturally more aware of healthy eating and exercise, and mysteriously naturally more slender than 'Americans' - very annoying.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:05 / 02.05.02
i though thiazi was fucking around with that post...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:26 / 02.05.02
I'm sure if Thiazi wishes to defend his position, he will. Meanwhile, Elijah, what do you think about attitudes to weight?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:40 / 02.05.02
Why?

Is it funny?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:21 / 02.05.02
well, growing up as "the fat kid" i was pretty sensitive about my weight, and still am for the most part, even though ive pretty much gotten really tall to compensate.
I tend not to make judgements about the overweight, however at times things mother me.
examples are "Guy who needs a forklift to get him out of his house through the gaping whole they made since he doesnt fit through doors"
This makes me pretty angry, i mean, come one guy, how do you NOT catch on to that before it gets that bad?

as far as the genetic obesity goes, i dont know if it exists but i doubt it personally.

Terminology---Fat-Beard--I dont find this to be an anti obese term, but an anti gamer/comic guy/geek term, not saying that being fat OR having a beard is wrong, but saying that a person fits into a stereotype. IE--someone is neither fat nor has a beard, yet you still call them Fat-beard.

Although smelling like milk is always bad, unless you are a breast
 
 
The knowledge
14:25 / 02.05.02
I used to be fat. Not over-the-top fat, but very, very plump. I lost a lot of it during one particularly energetic/mashed-up year and ever since I’ve been very conscientious about my weight. The thing about people who eat a lot of food has to do with happiness. In this case, to an overeater, food = happiness. Food is used as a ‘cheering-up device’ for people who lack that happiness which they want in other aspects of their lives. Feeling down? Have an ice cream/cake/pie/burger. It’s something to look forward to, and so it makes a fat person happy. Now, when I look at an overweight person (and I mean a largely overweight person when I write this) I do tend to think less of the person because of their size. I equate fat with greed, and by extension unhappiness and a lack of self-confidence. It’s self-destructive. I’m no doubt stating the obvious here, but if anyone wants to ask me questions, I can speak having been both fat and thin.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
15:20 / 02.05.02
Mumra, I'm speaking the same language. And having dropped a lot of weight in the last year, I can't help but notice how people treat me differently. They talk to me more often, and treat me as though I'm more intelligent, too. Strange, but true; it happens.

Here's the thing: I would have flown into a rage if someone had up and told me I was too fat, or I had to lose some weight, because that's a pretty tetchy subject. And it wasn't like I hadn't been trying ever since I could remember - I just didn't know how to do it. Then suddenly a change of habits started working, and kept working, and there I have it. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that no-one wants to be very overweight - even if they say they're comfortable and accepting of themselves, which I think is a big fat lie. But all these people telling me I look great obviously thought I didn't at one point. So why didn't they say anything? Also, given how fucking fantastic I feel about myself now, it's really tempting for me to talk to others about it. But that's just gauche. Not going there. Morbid obesity is another matter - if your best friend had cancer, you'd get help for them. Same thing.

Article left a rather bad taste though, as it displays the unfortunate and snotty attitude that 'Europeans' are somehow naturally more aware of healthy eating and exercise, and mysteriously naturally more slender than 'Americans' - very annoying.

In my oh-so-limited experience, people in North America drive everywhere. They drive around the corner. Next door. Upstairs. My dad came to visit me last year and we simply walked from my house to the library (10 minutes), from there to the Museum (10 minutes), and he asked in the middle of it all if I usually walked so much all the time. I couldn't believe it. Whenever I've been in Europe, I've noticed people walk a lot more in smaller towns, and generally drive less (petrol being a bitch in the wallet pocket). Granted, I did nothing but gain weight in London, likely because of the public transit and pesto-avocado wraps at Pret. Driving is the only aspect I can think of that would put North Americans in the "habitually lazier and fatter" camp. There's plenty of crap food in Europe, too.

Ooh, and the one more point: I posted awhile back in this thread about the book "Harmful to Minors." An excerpt of the book reveals the western tendency to paedophilia, and to the glorification of the 17-year-old body as a thing of beauty. Might this have something to do with our attitudes towards fat? Boys and girls without big muscles, heavy frames or wide hips on every billboard?
 
 
grant
19:42 / 02.05.02
Wow. Thin as nymphs (as opposed to adults). Never thought of that before....

Sugar is a drug, even if it's not consciously treated as such, and you'll find some of the same attitudes to the overeater as you will for other "soft, weak" types like, oh, heroin addicts and Prozac-users. The same sorts of stereotypes. The easy high. The quick fix. It might not be altogether accurate, but it's there.

(Although there might be an actual relationship in the case of Prozac & other SSRIs. I think overeating and depression are both linked to the same neurochemical process.)

I'm not sure about genetic obesity, but I know body types are definitely genetically determined, and I've observed that metabolism rates seem to run in families (with skinny friends who need to eat every three hours or they get cranky interacting with their equally skinny, equally snack-intensive parents).
 
 
w1rebaby
20:10 / 02.05.02
(Although there might be an actual relationship in the case of Prozac & other SSRIs. I think overeating and depression are both linked to the same neurochemical process.)

Yeah, but you want to be careful in that area. Almost any conscious activity can be linked to your brain chemistry - gambling, drug-taking, sex... after a while it starts to lose meaning.

I'm not sure about genetic obesity, but I know body types are definitely genetically determined, and I've observed that metabolism rates seem to run in families

I wonder how much of this is down to learned behaviour. I would suggest quite a lot. Body shape is a different matter from the amount of fat on you.

Personal example: My dad is quite portly, and also hairy. Myself and my sister have lived in a (single-parent) household with him for some time, eaten large meals, snacked from the fridge, and we were both pretty plump ourselves. (My mum is not quite of his build but is not slim.) But now we've moved out we have both noticeably slimmed down. I don't consider this coincidence.

I've never met an overweight person who, when you actually consider what they eat/drink and what exercise they do, couldn't have that explained by their lifestyle. Metabolism rates do run in families but they also come from lifestyle, and that I believe is why they run in families. If you could point to a line of fat or thin people stretching back generations, I'd accept that, but in general the number of people whose body shape is determined by their genes is very small.

Not that that means there's anything intrinsically wrong with that. I smoke - I don't have any moral high ground on personal health.
 
 
Annunnaki-9
20:11 / 02.05.02
Personally, I don't think I need to berate the obese for their lifestyle. They should be doing that for themselves. No really- obesity- technical obesity, is a great danger to the organism. High blood pressure, heart disease, adult onset diabetes... these folks generally don't live long.
A healthy physicality is not only essential to the organism, it has great mental and spiritual benefits. When your blood flows well, so do your thoughts and senses. Anti-oxidents like Vitamin C and E are also key ingredients to so-called smart drugs.
And as JFK said, 'Physical discipline the key to all other forms of discipline.'
 
 
Thjatsi
21:03 / 02.05.02
I just love grand statements about "our tribal history"...

...when we all had face paint and New Zealand accents. Indeed. But enough dogpiling on the simpleton.

I don't see how it is unsound to speculate a bit about the effects of a very long time period which quite possibly had a significant impact on our evolution. If you have a problem with this, then why aren't you chastising the paleolithic diet crowd? After all, instead of using the same thought process to throw out a few ideas, they're maintaining that one should base nutrition upon it.

I think that the main reason why I'm being rebuked here is not because of my logic, but the assumption that I'm stating that because an opinion may have a biological basis it is a perfectly good and natural opinion. In fact, I completely disagree with this, and I expect myself and others to rise above any such mental predispositions. As far as my own attitudes regarding obesity, I could care less about what other people choose to do with their bodies, and I don't look down on others for being overweight.

I'm sure if Thiazi wishes to defend his position, he will.

Actually I don't. Monkey gave enough historical counterexamples that I am forced to reject it.
 
 
netbanshee
21:08 / 02.05.02
...very much in line with fridgemagnet with eating behavior and availability of food having a major impact on health and body size. Being poorer and away from my parent's stockpile of generally unhealthy foods has had an impact on my health over the last few years. Also since I commute from suburbs more than walk about the city when I had an apartment there has had some effect. My girlfriend has commented to me on the size difference between now and when I was growing up.

It seems that genetics have an impact on how big/small/thin/fat one will be without over or underdoing it. It's seems to be a predisposition towards a most likely figure but I don't think it's the reason why some people have difficulty in reaching a particular weight. That seems to be an awareness and control issue overall. There aren't many people who have extra weight that workout/exercise regularly and watch their intake.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:05 / 02.05.02
Wow. Thin as nymphs (as opposed to adults). Never thought of that before...

Very interesting point. While researching for a study project on pornography (long story), I discovered that it is not uncommon for images on the Interwebnet to be stretched before presentation to the public, to make the models (pornographic and otherwise) look thinner and more juvenile. You can tell because they have weirdly long wrists...

Which is a factor. To what extent is our idea of the body artificially mediated. And, for that matter, how much of our ide of the body is vonditioned by what we want to have sex with, and where does that conditioning come from?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:05 / 02.05.02
Wow. Thin as nymphs (as opposed to adults). Never thought of that before...

Very interesting point. While researching for a study project on pornography (long story), I discovered that it is not uncommon for images on the Interwebnet to be stretched before presentation to the public, to make the models (pornographic and otherwise) look thinner and more juvenile. You can tell because they have strangely long wrists...

Which is a factor. To what extent is our idea of the body artificially mediated. And, for that matter, how much of our idea of the body is conditioned by what we want to have sex with, and where does that conditioning come from?
 
 
the Fool
22:41 / 02.05.02
There is also the opposite in effect. As a kid I grew up bone thin and lanky. I was bullied because of it and was the geek that was last to be picked for any sport team (Australians being VERY big on their sport, especially in Melbourne). I hated it. I couldn't stand being so thin. It made me feel weak. For years I tried 'anti-diets', as in I would take a fad diet and reverse all the rules to try and gain weight. All of which failed.

It probably is quite similar to someone who is overweight. I worried that I was too thin. That being thin made me ugly, weak and unpopular. And that I had to change myself to be happy. I tried to forcefeed myself, eat complete junk all the time, nothing worked.

Until beer, and then the weight just went to my belly and nowhere else. A thin guy with a pot belly is a very unattractive sight...

As a result of all this I don't find 'thinness' attractive at all. Its not something I aspire too and its not something I admire in other people. It means unhappiness to me.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:09 / 03.05.02
While researching for a study project on pornography (long story)

Wa ha hah.

You can tell because they have strangely long wrists...

Which is a factor. To what extent is our idea of the body artificially mediated. And, for that matter, how much of our idea of the body is conditioned by what we want to have sex with, and where does that conditioning come from?


This is worth going into to a great extent. To me, anyway, and here's why:

I have, at all times of my life, been slight of frame. Not neccessarily skinny, as years of exercising have left me with a wiry musculature that I enjoy. My dad and my brother, who were the same way until reaching their late teens, all said "yeah, you'll grow out of it." Which was reasonable to assume, as my father did in fact grow out of it, and my brother as well. I, however, remain thin, and am running out of time. I have the weird elongated wrists. My fingers and toes are pretty damn long, and were even noted as such when I was born. I have reason to think that I will remain this way until I die. See, at first I thought it was just my incredibly fast metabolism, but I remained the same shape when I was on medication and my eating habits changed dramatically, slowing my metabolism.

So here's the deal: this is how I prefer my mates. They've almost always been lithe, skinny girls; dancers and the like. I'm not sure why this is, but that's the deal anyway. It's not that I don't find other body shapes attractive. I do. I just seem to prefer body shapes similar to my own. I'd like to hear some reasons why this may be, as I can't figure it out, and most of you are smarter than I am.

Thaizi: Not to fan any potential flames, but I believe any comments directed at your post was more for the "Our Tribal History" comment. Frankly speaking, there's no such thing, and it's not a good idea to lump thousands of years of development, both physical and cultural, all into one grand history that everyone shares. To broad a view. I'm sure someone has explained that to you...I just wanted to clear that up.

Of course, there's the "simpleton" bit, but that's just Haus being Haus.
 
 
Thjatsi
00:47 / 03.05.02
Perhaps "tribal" was a bad choice of words. However, it was my understanding that all humans share a few thousand years of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. And, if this is the case, then there might be a few things to be learned by thinking about the evolutionary baggage that has carried over from that time period.

Monkey has offered enough evidence to disprove my idea about antipathy towards the overweight being a throwback to these times. However, I have yet to see any arguements against the model of thinking that led to that idea. If I am completely off on this, then I would like a few reasons why this is the case.
 
 
YNH
03:18 / 03.05.02
To what extent is our idea of the body artificially mediated?

There are some pretty strong arguments that mediated representation goes a long way toward determining what we think is normal. Maybe not in all cases who we want to be... In fact, I'd say hands down we call underweight normal for women and bulky normal for men because of representations. And that probably influences, to varying degrees, what we're attracted to - modified by all sorts of things I won't pretend I understand. Apparently I have something for pale skin, according to observers, but that's about it.
 
 
The Monkey
04:11 / 03.05.02
grant--

"Sugar is a drug, even if it's not consciously treated as such, and you'll find some of the same attitudes to the overeater as you will for other "soft, weak" types like, oh, heroin addicts and Prozac-users. The same sorts of stereotypes. The easy high. The quick fix. It might not be altogether accurate, but it's there."

This is a very good point. To duct tape it together with some other points, I think this idea of "weakness" or "lack of self-discpline" is in and of itself culturally mediated...I'd say America, if not Europe as well, has a particular ideal [Greek-derived?] of the individual [a fascinating word in and of iteslf] standing alone, without support systems. The opposite side of the coin it that the individual is thus stand-alone responsible for themselves. To be "needy" in any sense is considered weakness. Elsewhere in the world there are other models of the self...Schweder, Markus, and Kitayama's thumbnail-sketch differentiations of independent and interdependent society being the most rudimentary recognition of the change from culture to culture.

As somewho who splits the difference between two latter two types of thinking, I sometimes find that the to-the-individual attributions automatic to American thought a little cruel and short-sighted. It's a position that dismisses the confluence of genetics, experience, and psychology that leads to the individual [fat person], which not everyone has the strength (will, ego, call it what you like) to overcome.

"(Although there might be an actual relationship in the case of Prozac & other SSRIs. I think overeating and depression are both linked to the same neurochemical process.)"

Oddly enough, the opposite in currently being entertained by neuropsychologists: that self-starvation, up to and including anorexia and bulimia, are forms of pathological attempts at serotonin regulation/inhibition. Hence the treatment of anorexics and bulimics with antidepressants, which has demonstrated considerable success [relative to other treatments; eating disorders having the greatest relapse rate of any disorder] in trials. Serotonin has endless functions in the brains, but one happens to be regulating the sense of satiation. How overeating may be a queue of some neurochemical process, or an attempt to artificially alter the latter, is not mapped so thoroughly.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:00 / 03.05.02
Thiazi - even in the depths of time, when Homo whatever-it-was-back-then, I can't remember, began to spread out from what is now Africa, they would have encountered such a variety of environments that the idea that the hunter-gatherer 'experience' would have been the same for all groups, and that the development of tribes among those groups would have been the same for all Homo whatever-it-was-back-then, seems likely to be incorrect.

I think there's also a good case to be made that several thousand years of being sedentary peoples (as opposed to hunter-gatherers or nomads) has had as much influence on some modern people as any ancient conditioning.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:53 / 03.05.02
Well, when I asked the original question that generated Thiazi's response I wasn't asking for a general explanation. I was wondering why overweight had become synonymous with fucked up on certain threads.

"The bearded 20stone unwashed gamer still lives"

"the 25-stone dragonriderette with the unwise leather trousers."

"Sweet holy jesus! Is that a picture of a geek on that page? I...I'm frightened."
 
 
Cherry Bomb
00:15 / 04.05.02
Fat Americans: Think about American culture for a moment. With few exceptions, in most American cities you pretty much have to have a car in order to go to work, go shopping, go to the dentist; etc. I have heard (but I haven't confirmed so take that with a grain of salt) that in the home building boom of the 1950s, car companies actively campaigned to urban planners to spread out things like shopping centers, coporate centers, etc., so that people would have to drive (and thus buy cars, obviously). In my hometown, my friends and I have joked for years that anyone walking anyplace "looks like a refugee."

Personally I haven't driven in 4 years, and while I've lived in one of the few places in the U.S. where you don't need a car to get around, it's still taken work to pull that off as long as I have.

So you have that lack of regular exercise that used to be commonplace. Top that off with the vast majority of workers having jobs that are very sedentary and we have the first problem.

Then there are the portion sizes. I have yet to see a "snack serving" of chips in any country I've visited that is as large as the average bag of chips here in the states. The large Coke at McDonald's in London is the medium size in the States. Most servings at restaurants could easily be halved.

Then there's the food itself. I read The Guardian Article, and found it interesting, but I also thought the guy who wrote it obviously enjoyed taking the moral highground next to all those poor folks. Because fresh, healthy food is expensive. It costs more to buy milk with no chemicals in it than to buy chemical laden milk. It costs more to buy whole grain wheat bread than to buy white flour bread. I'm sorry, but if you're trying to feed your family on food stamps, or a very small amount of money, most likely you will stick to the cheap food, which is likely to be processed, chemical-laden and poor quality.

Not to mention the everpresent availability of fast-food. Is it any surprise so many americans (myself included) are overweight? I don't think so.

Actually have more to say but need to formulate "part II" as it were.
 
 
w1rebaby
08:32 / 04.05.02
being obese is associated with being poor?

I was thinking a bit more about this this morning, in the context of all the other things the poor are regularly berated for. Not bringing their kids up right. Being on welfare. Sitting around watching TV. It strikes me that all of these come down to an accusation of laziness, being fat included, and that's the sin the poor commit (because as we all know, being poor is your fault for not trying hard enough.)

Poverty is a stigma, laziness is part of the underlying assumption that gives justification to that stigma. "I don't hate people on welfare because they're poor, I hate them because they're lazy." That often strikes me as an excuse, a means of rationalising prejudice against your "social inferiors", because the rich seem to get far less hassle for being lazy, even when they patently are. I remember a South African relative telling me, on their family's sugar cane plantation, how the real problem with the blacks was they were lazy. And she really did seem to believe that, consciously at least.

(It must be said though that the rich still do get some social criticism for being lazy. Within the same social layer being seen as idle is a bad thing. There just isn't the status prejudice as well.)

So basically, being fat is a definitely a sign of being poor, but it is consciously taken as a sign of being lazy, giving justification for criticism that is socially-based.
 
 
Ganesh
11:39 / 04.05.02
Different cultures react to obesity in different ways. The 'fat=lazy=poor' assumption seems pretty common in the UK but, when I've visited India, I've been struck by the degree to which 'fat=rich=desirable' within the sub-continent. Even posters for Hollywood films are frequently retouched to make US actors just that little bit porkier.

Then there're the 'fat subcultures'; my own experience is of the UK gay scene, where the likes of XXL (a club for 'bears, hunks, chubbies and their admirers') is one of the fastest-growing club nights. The US Bear Community is even better organised. In this context, the term 'fatbeard' would likely be a compliment...
 
 
that
09:32 / 06.05.02
Please check this out for some anti-fat-phobic stuff from fat people and their allies. Thank you.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
13:44 / 06.05.02
Quote:

"Leanness and fitness are signs of success, by contrast...the ability to have time to do exercise is a marker of financial success as measured by opportunity for leisure activity"

No. Almost anyone can exercise and get in shape, barring disabilities. All you need is four phone books, a couple chairs, a sturdy table and a pair of sneakers. Twenty minutes a day, three to six days a week.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
15:20 / 06.05.02
On second thought monkey, you're right. People DO percieve it that way, but it's a myth.

Having lived on both, I'd say a poor diet isn't that much cheaper than a healthy one. Nutritional knowledge and availability are much bigger factors.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:50 / 06.05.02
Having lived on both, I'd say a poor diet isn't that much cheaper than a healthy one. Nutritional knowledge and availability are much bigger factors.


I have to disagree. I have not met anyone who has managed to scrape together a healthy meal, and certainly not three, on two dollars a day for food. No matter his or her grasp on Nutritional knowledge.

Of course, that's kind of an extreme situation. Even so, having lived on both, maintaining a healthy diet was more expensive. It just seemed that stuff like reasonably fresh vegetables, fruit, and milk were far more pricey than crap like chips, soft drinks, fast food and whatnot. Maybe it's different in the UK.
 
  

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