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Commonality of experience - useful or not?

Goodness Gracious Meme

17:20 / 30.04.02

Not sure if this is Head Shop or Conversation...

Kit-cat in the 'gender and intelligence' thread:

"I'm also very lucky in that I've moved among people who are pretty similar to me in terms of educational background, etc"

This got me to thinking about this. And this is a quote taken out of context, so is not a point aimed at K-C, or anyone, but an explanation of my jumping off point.

In what ways is it good to be among people who are pretty similar to you, whether this is in terms of educational background, class, race, culture, age etc. What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Eg I think I've benefitted massively from meeting people whose life experiences have been pretty different and the mixtures that arise from working with diverse groups. (eg the counselling study setting I'm in is very deliberately like this, the group was picked, amongst other reasons, for its diversity in the various areas above, and can a be challenging and quite explosive space for it..) I think it's taught me alot about what is 'natural' and what is based in custom, culture... I hope that at times, because of this, I've been open to letting down my borders and mixing with other people.. Think, although it may sound arrogant, I'm good at mixing with people, eg am aware that some of my friends would hate each other!

Definitely aware that I still 'type' some people, generally people I'm intimidated by...

*But* I've rarely (and am aware how morrisey this sounds, but bear with me) really felt that I've been around people/communities who *are*
similar to me, and that this can be a very lonely feeling... And can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy situation...

eg at school stuck between middle-class parents speaking queen's english and givng me extra music lesson and classmates that my parents didn't like because, basically, they were 'common' (from going to school in a very working class area) and so hanging round with people whose take on the education we were getting was very different, and picking up attitudes that jarred with the ones I was being fed at home.

And this isn't meant to be a thread of angst, I'm interested in the effects that arise from being in the centre a group, or on the fringes/borders of scenes, looking in/commenting...

Goodness Gracious Meme

17:33 / 30.04.02

And conversely, what voices are shaped from a life in which you've felt surrounded by people who you feel are like you...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

19:28 / 30.04.02

Question in reply: To what degree are our experiences so fundamentally similar in terms of sense data, the feeling of being human, of self-awareness and immanence, that no amount of experience can over-ride that commonality? Can humans become alien to humans?

21:41 / 30.04.02

I think... thinking... I think that I prefer to be around people who are more similar to me than less; and the reason is because then you don't have to argue about the big basic issues, but can get closer in to argue the finer points. And it's sort of amazing how much disagreement, or perhaps I should just say difference, there is between two people who are apparently almost identical. I feel different from everyone, if I can say that without getting into my life story. But then there's different and really different, too --the latter always a rather rude shock, the times one steps away to look at the big picture. I should probably do that more often.

22:39 / 30.04.02

I think a happy medium is the key here. If you don't hang around with people who are "like you," you start to feel alienated and lonely. If you only hang around with people who are "like you," you're closing your mind- which cannot be good.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:03 / 01.05.02

I think it's a slightly unexamined question. For example, the counselling course Plumsbitch talks about...I cannot but assume that the people on that counselling course are all interested in counselling, interested probably in becoming counsellors, already work or want to work in something involving counselling, turn up at the same time to hear the same things said by the same person...I'm not suggesting that the assumption that they are more "diverse" than people of, say, the same age and level of education but with different interests or genders or sexualities is necessarily,incorrect, but I think that even before we get to Nick's level of granularity that people in groups pretty much inevitably have commonalities.

The Natural Way

08:24 / 01.05.02

Morning.

Very important to me. Don't care about the race, gender, belief system, etc., just.... Well, so long as I'm not stuck w/ the type of people I work w/, I'm a happy bunny. Don't get me wrong, like them very much, but I do get so sick of the casual homophobia (I actually heard one commuterfuck prattling on about "Yeah, you know I had some argument w/ this uppity girl about, y'know, terminating the queers.."), the knee-jerk, negative reaction at the mention of "refugees", "asylum seekers" or, today, "anti-capitalist demonstrators". When people are so unprepared to put any thought into what's going on in the world around them it's kinda hard to find any real common ground. I'm not saying "Look! Check me, I'm such a liberal I have no prejudices!", but, well, y'know how it is....

Can be very frustrating and kinda upsetting.

I haven't heard the end of it since I scored 54% on the "how gay are you?" quiz. Started to get depressing now. I mean, if I was gay, I wouldn't be feeling too alienated right now, would I?

09:42 / 01.05.02

Its a tricky one, because we are mostly drawn to similar minded people and this can make us intellectually lazy. I have a friend, whose political opinions are quite close to mine, who makes a point of criticising sloppy and facile thinking. He does this most vigorously when he actually agrees with the sentiment being expressed. The idea is that you should want people whose opinions you share to have an robust stance. I guess that this stems from a mindset which sees coherent argument as desirable as an agreeable sentiment - by no means a widely accepted viewpoint.

Even this sort of self questioning, close examination of your beliefs isn't really enough. You need, at the very least, to meet different sorts of people. It may be, as Nick suggets, that they seem alien. But being aware that there are people out there who are radically different from you - and having some firsthand experience of them - can only broaden your mind.

The Natural Way

11:07 / 01.05.02

Just had to listen to the office manager (read: big spazznozz) go into one about "I bet all them protestors are on the dole....", then a few mutterings of "bunch a fuckin' hippies" and all round laughter.

Attempting integration w/ otherness....

Aaaah, fuck it. Don't care if I sound like a bigot/snob: a fucking huge
percentage of the population depress the shit out of me. I just want to plead w/ them...
"pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaase think. Please...."

So angry/upset don't really know what to do 'cept plug my headphones into my ears and ignore everyone for the whole afternoon.

The Natural Way

11:19 / 01.05.02

Going for a fag.

13:40 / 01.05.02

Plums to some extent I hear what you are saying about feeling alone among people who share your socio-economic background. Certainly on a personal level I have been in scores of similar situations myself, and at times have felt that in spite of the fact I shared many demographic statistics with those others in the group, I didn’t fit in.

But I wonder if part of that is due to some perceived expectations – if you are among a group of people who grew up in the same area, had parents making roughly similar salaries, were educated at similar if not the same schools, it follows you would have traits in common, yes? Well, I think theoretically this is so. But I also think that those who step out of the demographic norm would feel more at odds among a group of their quote unquote "peers" than among a more diverse group.

In addition, I’m thinking perhaps it’s more important in terms of (feeling as if) fitting in if you are among like minded people as opposed to those who share the same background. I have often supposed that I live in a bubble somewhat, because in spite of a group of friends that includes people from various countries, ethnicities, sexual orientations and economic backgrounds, our perspective on the world and the events that shape it is almost uniformly a liberal progressive one. And, while there does seem to be a some uniformity of background here on Barbelith, I would argue that there is some similarity of beliefs here (even if it’s just a belief in exploring new ideas) that adds some cohesiveness to Barbelith.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

14:04 / 01.05.02

I know that I tend to prefer hanging around with people who are similar to me so as to not tire my poor ickle brain trying to camouflage...

wembley can change in 28 days

14:25 / 01.05.02

This is one reason why I find moving from London (Ontario, thanks) to Toronto. London is actually known as the wasp capital of Canada, and I remember when moving to the T-dot, I was actually upset about feeling in a minority. I walk down the street and hear every language in the world except english, it seems. Chinatown really doesn't look like 'Canada' and I'm taller than everyone there, and I've people from all corners of the globe as drinking partners. When my siblings or parents from London come up to visit, they always say something like "there's an awful lot of Asian people in Toronto!", not meaning in any way to be racist, but they're not used to it and it freaks them out.

This is one reason I'm not looking forward to living in some areas of Europe, it's a small point really, but I remember how many times in the UK I'd have to bite my tongue instead of mentioning that you could actually get lynched for what someone just said. I love looking at the public school across the road and seeing all these kids from different backgrounds playing in the schoolyard, because they won't even think about each other in terms of race when they're older. In this respect I find being around people who are different very, very useful. I find myself way more open to other cultures and ways of life than I would have been if I'd stayed home. Plus the restaurants kick ass.

This is only one aspect of the question, I know, but that's my 2 cents on it.

Matthew Fluxington

15:24 / 01.05.02

I love looking at the public school across the road and seeing all these kids from different backgrounds playing in the schoolyard, because they won't even think about each other in terms of race when they're older.

Gee, I sure hope so, but where are you getting that idea from? There's loads of schools throughout the US and Canada which are mixed racially and ethnically, and there's still a lot of racist kids growing up in those environments.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:31 / 01.05.02

this is why i like to hang out with you all, in a non physicall way at least.
first off, i do really like my friends, but i cant hand them 20 books and the entire invisibles run and say "read these so we can talk about stuff besides computers, industrial music, and geekery"
Most of the people i hang out with are fairly technical and enjoy building PCs and playing video games for hours on end
on the opposite end there is barbelith, my "other hang out" where we talk about important stuff and un important stuff and comics and all, around my meatspace friends talking about comics becomes me lecturing about the finer plot points, which gets dull

20:12 / 01.05.02

I can't see how this is any different from discussions of signal/noise ratio.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:11 / 01.05.02

Haus and Nick - fair point, had a feeling I was going to get pulled up, was in hurry.

What I should have more correctly said is that within the umbrella commonality of a bunch of people who are passionate about learning about counselling (and this doesn't imply an uncritical relationship to the process, rather a defninite decision to engage with the kinds of issues/priorities), there has been a very definite effort to bring a group of people together who are incredibly different in all sorts of ways and who *will* bump up against each other, undermine each other's assumptions.

That I've found it an interesting and really rewarding space as there feels (most of the time, although not always) that a safe space has been created within which massive differences and the differences in experiences can be valued and disputes and anger can be shown. Possibly alot of this is my own issues of being afraid to do this alot of the time and being amazed to find a space in which it's encouraged, and finding this a useful thing. Which is possibly more to do with my fear than with anything external. Hm.

But am also very interested in the experience of growing up with alot of people around you who 'feel' similar and the positive/negative effects this can have, eg Kit-cat's example in the gender/intelligence thread of feeling lucky for mainly having been around people fo the same educational background.

Hm. don't know what my point is here, will go away and think.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:45 / 01.05.02

Oh and quick thought,

"Can humans become alien to humans?"

Yes, in that we do it all the time; certainly, there's a 'feeling of what makes us human', the sensory reactions, physical capabilities, that are similar or the same for the entire species, but we seem to be very good privileging what separatss us, perhaps overprivegiling (?) the experiential differences.

Humans seem much better at this, making others less than/alien to whatever our particular vision of this humanity is. Often a fear reaction, I think, but it's there, all the time.

Nick, how does a privileging of the similarities manifest itself?

Possibly I'm just feeling extermely cynical and grim right now and it's there all the time... tell me so...

22:58 / 01.05.02

How about "feelings of what makes us superhuman?"

08:24 / 02.05.02

I just want to say, about the comment I made which Plums refers to, that when I made it I was talking about the idea of 'dumbing down' and why it hadn't been a major factor in my personal life; I felt lucky to have grown up among people from the same educational background because it helped me avoid the kind of 'not-fitting-in-ness' that Plums describes having felt at school. I think commonality of experience is useful in that it does provide a place from which one comes; I imagine I'd feel rather dislocated without that. Not saying that the place from which one comes is always good, but it's hard to imagine not having it at all.

Also, I think most social interaction produces common experiences, which are then reified every time a similar social interaction takes place.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:02 / 02.05.02

At the risk of sounding like an old hippy, as altruism.