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Abortion

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
YNH
17:49 / 28.04.02
Persephone:
Father and mother must both vote "yes" to give their creation life.

Good idea.
 
 
Persephone
17:56 / 28.04.02
Oh, I get it. 1) Woman gets pregnant. 2) She has the option of a) aborting fetus or b) transplanting fetus to artificial womb. Both procedures are, hypothetically, equally intrusive. Both procedures serve to remove fetus from woman's body--the former, dead; the latter, alive. If she does not want to continue the pregnancy in her body, she must submit to one procedure or the other... and 3) both procedures being hypothetically equal in intrusiveness, attention shifts to what outcome is wanted for the fetus. 4) Since the pregnancy will be held outside of the woman's body, what the father wants for the fetus now weighs equally against what the mother wants.

Got it.

Well, I'm thinking... if both the father and mother want the child, then there would not be a reason to resort to the artificial womb unless the mother specifically objects to the nine months of pregnancy.

If the father wants the child, but the mother doesn't (because she's not able or willing to raise the child after birth, because of genetic copyright, etc.), then I would apply the above rule and allow the mother to exercise her right to veto. This seems like hard cheese on the father who doesn't get what he wants; but then again you can't always get what you want, being that the alternative is that the father gets what he wants and the mother gets what she doesn't want. But the principle here is not to give the mother what she wants, rather that both parties have to agree or no deal.

But if the father doesn't want the child and the mother does and the fetus is still in her body, then mother prevails on grounds that her body is inviolable. She can effectively protect the fetus in her body.

If the conception takes place outside the womb, then father has an equivalent veto power to the mother's. I believe this is the case --or at least the argument-- with frozen embryos, present-day.

You know what this all is making me think that never occurred to me before? Women hold this enormous biological power over the species, and men hate that. "Men" generically and not specifically. But yeah, the realization that your mother could have prevented you from being born is fairly sublime. Now I get what alas is saying, what this artificial womb is about... men trying to take that power from women. It would be nice to think that this was something being developed in the interests of women's health... but go back to what that scientist said, that the woman could be told to take care of the child out of the jar.

Shit.
 
 
Axel Lambert
18:29 / 28.04.02
Interesting points, and a clear summary of what I was brooding about, Joyce-style.

Hey, maybe you're right and us guys really do fear women. But couldn't women, too, feel the same irrational -- I wouldn't call it fear -- whatever feeling when you think that one of your parents could've terminated you, even without having discuss it before. In my case, I'm much influenced by the fact that my mother was --- mentally imbalanced, to put it mildly. Mad is another word.

That was a parentesis.

I think that one argument, "I don't want to have a child", is confused with another, "I don't want to carry a child", and that it is the second that gives the woman the right to choice, and not the first. But we seem to agree, basically, yeah?
 
 
alas
19:06 / 28.04.02
persephone:
You know what this all is making me think that never occurred to me before? Women
hold this enormous biological power over the species, and men hate that. "Men"
generically and not specifically. But yeah, the realization that your mother could have
prevented you from being born is fairly sublime. Now I get what alas is saying, what
this artificial womb is about... men trying to take that power from women

YES!!!

That's my point about fetishization in a nutshell. Women have ALWAYS had the power to give life and to take life. They have always had the possibility of inducing abortion. There's evidence of this that goes back in many ancient cultures to, well, ancient times. Probably back to Eve or thereabouts.
And yes, that's sublime. And yes that's scary. And yes that's the stuff whole religions are built on. And yes, WITWOL, you're also right: women, too, have an uneasy relationship to this power, especially as we come to realize the power--it's terrifying. Some of us flee from it and want to legislate it as much as some men do. But I just can't criminalize abortion, or even foolish acts to the female body (like drinking or drug-taking during pregnancy) because I simply CANNOT give anyone else more authority over what goes on inside that body, while that is where all this needs to take place, beyond her. And if all this artificial womb technology isn't in fact used to pressurize women who are pregnant even further--a kind of "AHA! Now we can control you! Now you have NO EXCUSE for killing that BABY!" then I'll sadly see my fetish/fetus thesis confirmed.
alas.
 
 
alas
19:09 / 28.04.02
I meant "if all this artificial womb technology IS [asserted as another means/ attempt to control women's life/death giving power] then I'll see my thesis confirmed."
oops.
 
 
SMS
01:41 / 29.04.02
Alas, I want to look at your fetishization theory in the context of two anti-abortion arguments.

The first is the rights-based argument, and seems to be the most popular amongst both anti-abortion and pro-choice advocates. It is the idea simply that the fetus has a right to live and furthermore that its right to live outweighs the mother’s right to abort it. What reverence, therefore, do these people have for the fetus? They have a reverence that essentially asserts no more than the fetus’ right to continue life, even at certain expenses to the mother. So for the definition
2.An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence: made a fetish of punctuality./
All that you’re really saying is that this is undue reverence, which is at the heart of the abortion debate. That is, the fetus is fetishized iff the anti-abortion stance is wrong.
But you point out in particular
A material object supposed … to represent in such a way, or to be so connected with, a supernatural being, that the possession of it gives to the possessor power to control that being.
And you say that
the heart of the anti-abortion movement is not "pro-life" but a fetishization of the power/innocence of the child
I think, by this, that you mean that, in holding the fetus dear, we may exercise control over the mother. The fetus in this case is the object, and the mother is the supernatural being. Actually, you use the word child, so perhaps it is not just the unborn that we hold dear, but even the children after birth. From this sense, it is not at all a new phenomenon that we consider children sacred. In fact, it is not even unique to our species. It is very clear from an evolutionary standpoint why we would be inclined in this way. The extension from child to fetus seems to require no additional explanation beyond this. If we want to say that treating the child and the fetus as sacred is also a result of our desire to hold power over women, then we should admit that it only holds power over women to this end. Most women who become pregnant do not abort their child. So those who claim that abortion is should be illegal should have no qualms at all about saying that they wish for the law to have this specific power over women. Every law is an exercise of power over some person or persons.

Thus, to say that we fetishize the child or fetus is to say no more than the anti-abortion stance already admits, but to reword it to sound negative.

The second anti-abortion argument is less of an argument from a legal standpoint, and more of a moral standpoint. It is simply that a woman ought to, for the sake of the law of compassion, sacrifice whatever she must so that the fetus may grow to be a healthy, happy person. This sacrifice may be thought of as nine months of pregnancy, but it probably extends for the rest of the mother’s life, and applies to the father as well as the mother. It also applies to people other than the child, to a greater or lesser degree.

If you use this argument, then the idea of control seems even more appropriate. Not only are we telling the woman that she cannot do some particular act, but we are telling her that it is her duty to sacrifice voluntarily. It is not even sufficient to sacrifice nine months of her life for the fetus, but also many things throughout the rest of her life for the child. Is this worse? Is it worse if she must do this of her own free will than if she must do so under compulsion?
 
 
YNH
03:13 / 29.04.02
Or one could define fetishization as treating the /(embryo)/ as if it existed in a vacuum, and there was no creation or production involved; as if it were an /(entity)/ in its own right rather than being the result of work on the part of two individuals who should be allowed to appropriate it or dispose of it however they choose. Or, more realistically, that one individual (we'll call hir mom) has quite a lot of physicallabor involved here nad therefore has more right to appropriation.
 
 
alas
15:27 / 29.04.02
Thanks, SMS, for your extensive respose; it's helping me think through this hypothesis of mine, which I'm only just starting to work out here.

The fetus in this case is the object, and the mother is the supernatural being. Actually, you use the word child, so perhaps it is not just the unborn that we hold dear, but even the children after birth. From this sense, it is not at all a new phenomenon that we consider children sacred.

Actually, the quasi-supernatural power as I was conceiving it, is the power of life, and its flip side death which are always two sides of the same coin. The cultish quality of the kind of "child as innocent" that arose in the 19th century--which lives on in many ways, particularly the aesthetic of "Precious Moments" figurines and books like "Children are from Heaven"--seeks to deny the tight relationship between life/death. And this is related in a deep way, I believe in my gut (and now I'm trying to translate that gut feeling into logic and words), to the fact that women have always possessed such a close relationship to this life-giving/death-giving possibility. Patriarchal systems are deeply suspicious of that power/relationship.

Beyond that, the relation of the "sacred" and the child is an issue that is complex; for starters, check out Vivianna Zelizer's "Pricing the Priceless Child" (ca. 1986? or so?).

So, while to a certain degree you are right that children have "always" been sacred, the picture is quite complex, especially when you examine the ways, for instance, various legal traditions have categorized/ treated children. As I understand it (and I'm a bit outside my field, here, so corrections are expected!) under Roman law fathers had almost sovereign rights within their household including rights over the lives of their children, which were codified as property; English common law did not assert that children were property (although that claim is sometimes made), but did give all rights to their care, custody, and labor value to the fathers, and it was extremely difficult to prosecute a father for neglect or abuse of a child.

So I don't believe on can talk about the law without recognizing the deep implications of this patriarchal context of the law and the asymmetrical powers it has granted to adult men and women before it, which I believe is a critical absence from the discussion you offer here:

If we want to say that treating the child and the fetus as sacred is also a result of our desire to hold power over women, then we should admit that it only holds power over women to this end. Most women who become pregnant do not abort their child. So those who claim that abortion is should be illegal should have no qualms at all about saying that they wish for the law to have this specific power over women. Every law is an exercise of power over some person or persons.

First, women have never been treated equally before the law, so the law has always had more powerful effects on them than it has on men.
While it is arguable that over the course of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries male heads of households (in the US and also in most European countries) lost power over women and the domestic sphere, their power was by and large handed over to social institutions, which were sanctioned by various instutional state apparati authorized by patriarchal strucutres. Thus a "judicial patriarchy" was created. So the State gained power within the family at the expense of men and did almost nothing to change the legal power and position of women within that sphere.

Thus it doesn't hold power "only to this end": most women have also been compelled to give their children the name of its father. Most women have been and still are legally and socially compelled to give birth to children only in the context of heterosexual, marital relations sanctioned by church / state.

The anti-abortion movement works within this context, and seeks to retain and give over the exclusive right to determine life/death issues to patriarchal legal structures. Most anti-choice activists recognize that decisions involving abortion are inevitable (at the very least, when the mother's life is at risk), but they reject women's having the right to decide the meanings of "life" and "risk" in a way that men never have to face, but are willing to allow outside entities, working under the name/authority of "the father" to determine those vital issues.

at least that's what I think I think. any help out there?
alas.
 
 
SMS
05:13 / 30.04.02
Way back on page 1, suds said
In the 1800s, there were no laws about abortion and the same amount were being carried out as there are now. the laws have changed nothing. i could go on, but i simply can't. if anyone wants to take a look at my essay, feel free.

I'm not sure what the laws are that you refer to about abortion. Where I live, a woman can get an abortion without much difficulty and without presenting any reason.

If laws making abortion illegal does nothing to decrease the number of aborions performed, then that seems to settle the legal argument for both sides, doesn't it? How much consensus is there that abortion laws do essentially nothing?

Also, suds, if you are reading this, can you give me sources on this? I would be interested in reading your paper, actually.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:47 / 30.04.02
I thought suds' point was that the explicit legalisation of abortion hasn't seen a substantial increase in the actual number of abortions being performed?

Legalisation means that abortions can be performed above the board, in registered, safe clinics, rather than in illegal backstreet operations in which women are vulnerable to unsafe practices, amateurs and quacks. That's what abortion law does.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:52 / 30.04.02
Um..SMatthew, I really don't mean to be cruel, but you do know that women experience physical sensations and emotions, don't you? And a legal status beyond that of domestic animals.

Which is why giving your girlfriend "an abortion pill" is not the same as emptying a jar of foetus down the drain.

Which is why legal abortions allow a clinical environment, a guarantee of a degree of qualification in the practitioner, a degree of sterility in the environment, and a right of redress if the process is botched.

Which is why killing and eating women is, in almost every circumstance, *wrong*.
 
 
suds
10:57 / 30.04.02
kit cat club, yes! thats just what i meant.

whether you think abortion is good or bad or not, some women are going to get them regardless of whether or not the law says you can or not. pre- roe vs wade one in three pregancies were being aborted. thats the same stat as now.
however, safe, albiet expensive abortions don't seem to be on the agenda for the bush administration.
while the anti-abortion'ers and pro-choicer'ers argue about what life is and what a fetus is, abortion rights are being taken away.

my opinion on abortion doesn't matter. i might be very anti-abortion, or i might be pro-choice. i don't think it fucking matters right now, because there are some women out there who need to have an abortion, whatever their circumstances and their legal right to do so is being taken away as we argue.

if you give half a fuck, i think you should do something about it.
end of rant.
 
 
alas
14:09 / 30.04.02
Suds--I understand your feelings and also know the research you're referring to--I think in the US it was initiated by a guy named (James?) Mohr, about how abortion was legal in the 19th century, and part of the process of making it illegal occurred hand-in-hand with the solidification of the American Medical Association's creation of a male-dominated monopoly on medical/health care in this country, which essentially put an end to woman-centered services like midwifery.

and I understand your frustration with discussion, but, since you did write a thesis on it, you do understand that the only way to get more people to act is to get us all to think, deeply, about what is happening.

alas
 
 
suds
14:44 / 30.04.02
alas, my research wasn't actually done by a man.
i agree that people should get a deeper understanding of the situation. i also think that people should be doing something about what dubya is doing. i really do. hence my rant. i'm not going to apolgise for it.
 
 
SMS
21:49 / 30.04.02
I was reading "law" as a law against abortion rather than for it. Oh, and every time I look at "legalisation," I'm reading "legislation," so maybe that's the problem.

I basically got the point, though. So what I'm saying is that if the statistics show that making abortions illegal has no effect, then the legal debate is settled. I can't go around sourcing Barbelith, though, if I'm going to make that claim.



Haus, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking. I am aware that women experience physical sensations. I am also aware that they have a legal status above that of a domestic animal (except possibly in the case of euthenasia, depending on who you ask).

But I get the feeling that I've been misunderstood.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:02 / 01.05.02
It does appear to have been a misunderstanding - I think you misunderstood suds's initial post. From what you said, it sounded as if you thought that abortion laws made no difference *to anything* (the implication being, so why bother with them?) - and Haus and I pointed out that legalising abortion does make a substantial difference to the safety of the women concerned.
 
  

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