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Small rant from a patriot

 
  

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Tom Coates
23:31 / 23.04.02
Lono - that's just a list of things - and a list with a tremendous variety of types of things in it too. I mean, JFK was a Democrat - as far from far-right as American politics gets (which admittedly isn't far). And the war in Afghanistan was at worst morally dubious - it was being run by a ridiculously oppressive regime (by our standards at least) which had stripped many of the freedoms from its people. That's got to provide SOME shades of grey...?

I could just as easily write a horror list from the far-right perspective - racial miscegination, sexual deviancy, punishing citizen's successes, Stalinist purges, Russian Revolution, The Winter of Discontent etc. etc.

You're arguing a very popular position on the board, but we can't allow ourselves to be lazy and just assume that you're right!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
02:43 / 24.04.02
Why does it always boil down to a right vs left? Are we just lazy? Have our politicians become lazy? Do we no longer want to make distictions in shades of grey?

The right wing does a good job of trying to keep their beliefs at the core of their actions. They feel that there is a clear kind fo right and wrong and wake up every morning trying to do what they feel is right. They also are tougher on those who would do us harm, whether it's through crime, fraud or war.

The left is wonderfully empathic and tries to remind us that we gather together for the greater good, and that forgivness is at the heart of being human.

Their struggle usually ends up with a decent enough compromise that not as many people are hurt by the extremes of both sides.

But back to the point, when the right wing is in control of the power, they swing things too far their way...as does the left.

My problem with the US is that now there is too much hidden away, and the left seems powerless, allowing decisions to be made away from ourt eyes, which means they will most likely be bad decisions.

The US CAN be a great country. It's the job of the citizens of the US to MAKE it one.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
03:53 / 24.04.02
Lono:

Don't know how my love for my country automatically makes me an evil hatemonger but I'll bite. What is it about the love of my country that makes me an evil hatemonger? What is it about patriotism that screams reactionary? I mentioned some good things that most everyone in the world knows about the USA. I posited a theory that the bad things we have done are in no way as well known to everyone in the world, so some of this hatred for the USA must be jealousy or something else equally irrational. Any other vibes you're picking up on, from what you've said here, are entriely imaginary.

And on a seperate note, I'm personally offended you would put the poll tax in the same catagory with the war in Afghanistan. Believe what you want about the moral validity of revenge, but we did manage to remove the Taliban, and I defy you to say that the little girls who can go to school now were better off. The poll tax is utterly evil beyond any hope of debate and against the very ideals my country was founded upon. Yes it is part of the dark and sordid history of the USA, a history I have never denied, but it is gone now. Removed by true patriots, those not motivated not by any sort of hate but love the their country.
 
 
Rev. Orr
07:46 / 24.04.02
Mole - Given that the Poll Tax reference came after a name-check for Maggie Thatcher I assumed that it refered to the English tax of the eighties not the American experience, but who can tell...

On a wider note, whilst 'jealousy' is the wrong term, I think it would be true to say that much of the resentment of the States around the world does stem from the impact that their actions have on the rest of us and their apparent lack of interest in or denial of this fact. It is very hard to justify a unilateralist or isolationist stance when your actions affect the lives and futures of everyone else. Refusing to sign the Kyoto accords, for example, whilst disappointing, would have caused less antagonism were the US not the largest polluting nation due to the size of her industrial infrastructure. It doesn't make the US 'evil', just unheeding, but the effect looks the same on the receiving end.

It is this denial of cause and effect, of the States not looking where they are stamping their feet, that can tip the rest of the world from fear into resentment or hate.
 
 
Dao Jones
09:57 / 24.04.02
Mole:

What is it about patriotism that screams reactionary?

I think it depends on what a country is to you. The US is not just a military-economic unit, after all. It is, perhaps more profoundly than any other Western nation, a set of ideas given form by mutual consent. It is those ideas which make it admirable: equality, freedom, justice. In recent times, it has become unfashionable to perform what I would suggest is the most patriotic of actions: checking to see that the country still hews to those ideals, that the system still serves the dream. It was 'un-American' to be a communist - yet Communism is just an alternative expression of those ideas. It is anti-American to doubt the US-led war on Afghanistan - yet the question of justice there is sorely vexed. Justice requires history, and it is unthinkable to look back before September. The attacks on New York were virgin births, come out of nowhere.

Patriotism, these days, appears to mean 'dumb acceptance'.

I mentioned some good things that most everyone in the world knows about the USA. I posited a theory that the bad things we have done are in no way as well known to everyone in the world, so some of this hatred for the USA must be jealousy or something else equally irrational.

Oh. If that was all you were saying, it's real simple. The products you imagine are unequivocally loved aren't. The bad things you imagine are secret aren't.

Here's the latest unjust, groundless attack on American altruism.
 
 
The Knowledge
11:02 / 24.04.02
You have a bufoon for a president. He's the most powerful man in THE WORLD, and he was voted in by either just over 50% or just under 50% of your people.

AND HE'S A FRICKING IDIOT!

THE USA IS UNFAIR! Proof: George Bush JUNIOR is now the president. His father George Bush SENIOR was president twenty years ago. If that isn't a reflection on how unjust and corrupt America truly is, hell I don't know WHAT is.

Oh, hang on, how about the fact that Americans consume 50-60% of the worlds resources, yet they total 10% of the worlds population? Have you talked to your member of the house about this Mole? Are there any plans by George Dubya to tackle this 'obvious' point of contention for people who are starving, diseased and dying, by-and-large because of the greed and arrogance of your country?

The ecosystem, as Dao pointed out, is another important issue, and further evidence of America's unyielding arrogance. The worlds biggest polutor throwing the Kyoto treatie to the wind does not just deal a 'major blow' to the rest of the world trying to save the environment, it kils it outright. And don't forget, the Democrats were COMMITTED to this treaty. The Republicans were the ones who threw it out of the window. This is not a SLIGHT CHANGE OF TACT, but IT IS a 'small change in policy' by Mr Dubya which will have MAJOR ramifications in the future.

Time and again America reveal themselves to have a potential that they have NEVER acheived, or even come close to acheiving. THAT IS WHY I THINK THEIR HATE GETS THE BETTER OF THEM, because every time they have to react or take action, home or abroad, I see their right-wing hate and pride kick in, and I see this way that they act as a further contribution to the erosion of the already meagre-faith that a few people in the world still hold for the USA and the ideas it was born from. The war in Afghanistan served as a HUGE reflection of the right-wing political system now in place - BECAUSE IT WAS BY-AND-LARGE ABOUT OIL!

Texas. All the old symbolism kicking in. And it's fresh which is why I hold it as one of the worst things in my above list. What's the argument here for 'time' as an ally to the Republicans/Conservatives? I.e. In time we forget the fuck-ups of yesterday, that they will be doomed to make again when given another chance, because their politics ARE FLAWED.

Oh, and I did mean the British poll tax, and, in case you didn't know, the JFK assasination was organised by the right-wing government in America at the time, who tried to spread the onus around a fair few other dubious groups, but never really managed to do a good enough job of washing the blood off their own hands.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:06 / 24.04.02
Lono. Many of the things you're saying there I couldn't object to. But I do object to the way you're saying them. Calm down. Nothing is ever as simple as it appears to be - things inter-relate, interpretations vary. If you're trying to convince Mole that you're right then you're going about it the wrong way! You convince people by being more right AND more reasonable than them.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:09 / 24.04.02
[shrug]

MM did call this 'rant from a patriot'. I guess that invites rants in return.

MM, take it as a thermometer reading: I'm guessing Lono is a native English-speaker from the UK, Austrlia, NZ, or Canada. In which case S/He represents someone from a nation historically allied with the US.

Think how much less favourable the reviews are in the rest of the world.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
13:28 / 24.04.02
Orr said:

"It is this denial of cause and effect, of the States not looking where they are stamping their feet, that can tip the rest of the world from fear into resentment or hate."

Oh very, very interesting. I can see that.

Dao Jones said:

"It was 'un-American' to be a communist - yet Communism is just an alternative expression of those ideas. It is anti-American to doubt the US-led war on Afghanistan - yet the question of justice there is sorely vexed. Justice requires history, and it is unthinkable to look back before September. The attacks on New York were virgin births, come out of nowhere."

The HUAC thing was truly un-American. It is not anti-American to doubt the war of Afghanistan, unilateral (not agreed upon by the President and Congress) war is another 'un-American' idea. Just that the war is extremely popular and you're likely to be shouted down if you try to disagree with it. Shouted down, not silenced.

As far as history goes, the 224 dead in Kenya and Tanzania and the 17 dead on the USS Cole are enough history for me to justify at the very least eradicating Al Qaeda with a squadron of B-52's. Sorry but I'm still angry.

Lono said:

"AND HE'S A FRICKING IDIOT!"

At last, something we can agree on. I would call him worse things but I think he's too stupid to actually steal an election all by himself.

I think I'm getting the shape of this thing now. I'd guess most citizens in the US have no idea of the actions we take abroad that disagree with our own cherished ideals. They sit on top of the figurative mountain of civilization, most money and biggest everything, and as they look out see only sky. The people downslope, the rest of the world, are constantly forced to look up at us and have a better view of our totality.

Sorry about the mix up with the poll tax. I hope it was nothing like the American one.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
13:37 / 24.04.02
Nick said:

"MM did call this 'rant from a patriot'. I guess that invites rants in return."

Indeed, I deeply appriciate the efforts of Tom to keep it civilized. I had hoped to have a calm conversation and I thank you all because I have learned a good deal without getting too angry.

However I have no problem with vitriol and harangue. It makes it hard to in turn reply without a stream of 'mothafuckas', but it is good excercise.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:29 / 24.04.02
As a South American I'm so flabbergasted I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just want to thank Dao Jones. (And to realize that millions of americans think the way morocco mole thinks is one of the saddest and frightening things in the world)
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:19 / 24.04.02
To answer the abstract: because we face the effects of American policy.

I am a Canadian. Unless there is a hockey game on Canadians forget they aren't American. We watch American TV. We follow American politics. When I talk politics I quote the constitution of the United States and the Declaration of Independence.

Your ?good things? are not good. Your TV and Hollywood are so insipid, trashy and overly violent. Your politics has nothing to do with the ideals expressed in your great founding documents.

Policy wise we follow the American lead worse than the UK. They followed with the great thanks of the GWB, Canada followed without needing to be mentioned.

When Our troops got bombed by an American F 16 we were mad at our government for having troops there. It was the lack of response by GWB that made us angry.

I am not angry because I am jealous; I have all the crap that an American citizen does. I am angry because the actions, foreign and domestic, of the American Institutions bears no relation to the ideal upon which you were founded.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
21:56 / 24.04.02
As a South American I'm so flabbergasted I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just want to thank Dao Jones. (And to realize that millions of americans think the way morocco mole thinks is one of the saddest and frightening things in the world)

Would it make you feel any better if most Americans knew about the effects of their foreign policy, and still let it all happen? Many Americans don't have a clue what's going on, and they come off as extremely insensitive in times like these. Let's not all be insensitive and try to understand where they're coming from. I remember in high school (aside from the week I spent in my most depressed funk ever, after reading ahead in my history textbook about such things as El Salvador and Afghanistan in the Cold War) I did a project on North American media. A country like Japan, for instance, gets news from the US, from the UK, and various other sources as well as domestically. Canadian news is a mix of domestic and primarily American. During the Cold War, citizens of both the USSR and the USA received news that was 99% domestic. Now, if that isn't a way to keep people from knowing what they shouldn't know, I don't know what is. I'm actually quite impressed in MM's willingness to discuss all these topics with people who don't share his views.

The USA isn't the first world power to misbehave. Britain didn't exactly have a spotless record when expanding its empire. I don't know too much about other empires (Haus could probably help me out), but I do know the accomplishments of the Romans were only possible through a massive economy of slave labour. Canada exploited (and still vastly misunderstands) its native population. America itself is not the problem, as I see it. The problem is power, and the fact rests that at the moment, the US has too much of it. I remember when playing silly Vampire roleplaying games, if I had a character that didn't mind doing dodgy things for personal gain, I would turn on just about anybody, and the person in the highest power position was universally feared and mistrusted. Now I know that's a silly analogy in some ways, but if I were playing games in world politics, I'll bet it would feel just the same.
 
 
m. anthony bro
23:08 / 24.04.02
George Bush is as thick as pigshit, we know and embrace that fact. But, then again, how could any UK citizen feel smug when your leader, a smart man, is doing EVERYTHING that Dubya tells him to? Who's really dumber outta that one?
And, so, America interferes, and our countries let them. America sucks, and America sticks its big fat nose in where it's not wanted, mostly c/o some business interest or another, and Australia, Britain, New Zealand (sigh), Canada, a lot of European nations, we're all fucking witnesses and accomplices to the crime.
So, fuck this smugness. I looked in my own back yard, and our own Prime Minister is there, and she's doing her best to make sure that America gets what it wants. And, across the way, there's Tony Blair practicing saying "of course, George, right you are. What? Cherie would love to, but go easy, she's never been tied up before", and John Howard is sliming his way through a speech to George about how he totally agrees with everything that Dubya ever said.
Did you know, that if you take the population of the US out of the world, there's still 5.75 billion people, and none of them seem to have notices that that's a lot of people who can say "hey, get rooted", and make a difference.
 
 
Dao Jones
08:29 / 25.04.02
As far as history goes, the 224 dead in Kenya and Tanzania and the 17 dead on the USS Cole are enough history for me to justify at the very least eradicating Al Qaeda with a squadron of B-52's. Sorry but I'm still angry.

I'm not asking you to be anything other than angry about that. I wouldn't ask you to be other than horrified and furious about September 11th.

But you've moved from one unarguable atrocity to another. What you haven't done is mention (or for all I know, consider) the things which were done by your government which made deeply religious Muslems so angry with you. Let me suggest something: I won't tell you. You find out. It'll take you, I would imagine, less than half an hour, using the normal search engines. Then come back and let's compare notes - otherwise it's just me trashing the US again, and I'm starting to find myself obnoxious, so God knows what you're thinking.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:36 / 25.04.02
Answering to part of the topic's abstract: "Please tell me why most everyone who is not American fears or loathes us?".

Morocco, speaking for my experience, this isn't entirely true. Most of brazilians don't have a clue about politics, and they don't care. If you talk to people about Condor Plan and Kissinger, they go: "What you're talking about"? Like in many other countries, mainstream media has done a hell of a job to disinform and make people forget. If you go to universities, yes, you'll find hatred, if you affiliate to a political party, yes, you'll be introduced to the secrets of the game and you'll learn what american government has done to South America and other parts of the world. If you go through the "hassle" of researching on the Internet, then you'll also find material for your hatred. But that´s *not* the case with most of brazilians. They do envy your country, but as something that they would like Brazil to become. They dream of a padronized life with all your modern facilities an so on, and they truly swallowed the notion of America as a beacon for freedom. Most of brazilians, if you ask them, I guess they would say "yeah, I wish my country was like the USA". As far as I can tell, that's not a problem, is it? It should be a reason for pride. Now, this leads to the second part of my response to your question:

In your first posts you sort of justified yourself saying that much of the flak that America receives originates from feelings of envy and jealousy. I would just like to say that you would do better spending your efforts, your worries, in matters that are really important. Don't waste your time worrying about the ones who fear and loathe your country based in that sort of feelings. Your energy and time will be much more useful if you focus in discovering (which you're just doing, bravo for that, the truth is ugly, but hey, you're a big man, you can take it!) why other people have justifiable reasons for acting like that. Because they do have. Don't even think it's all pouty lips and stomping feet. Bad things have been happening to them, there´s plenty of evidence everywhere. Check Kissinger's, who's increasingly becoming persona non grata in the political scenario, an embarrassing relic, something that a lot of people would like to see swept under the rug. The things this man is responsible for were well known back then. Just like the things that George Bush Senior and Junior are responsible for are relatively well known now. It´s not a veiled secret.

Again, all this to say: don't worry about the jealousy and enviousness. Your army has all the red buttons. You are the stronger military force, so don't bother by now, put this "jealousy" issue apart for a while - and try to become an informed citizen that will do its best to change the status quo, so that the ones who have real reasons to hate America will stop doing it.
 
 
alas
22:20 / 25.04.02
On jealousy: to reiterate what others have suggested, the "stuff" we have, that other people want, has been created through the 1) exploitation of natural resources around the world and 2) the exploitation of workers around the world. My government and my army keeps that system in check in the name of "democracy."

We've been told we are free so often that we have no choice to believe it, but I'll second the notion that the average US citizen is not as free, in many crucial respects, as the people of many other countries in this world.

And, MM, I do think you bear some responsibility for calling this a "rant from a patriot."
 
 
m. anthony bro
07:44 / 27.04.02
You know what makes me snicker? It's that in other countries, all the social control comes from the government, and they go hate their leaders, and they all want to be free from the horrible unelected opressors.

But, in America, they're guaranteed SO MUCH freedom by this document which is nigh on impossible to alter, let alone revoke, and they willingly submit to excruciating and conservative social controls of the most numbing kind, and they fucking love it. Crazy.
 
 
gentleman loser
00:26 / 01.05.02
Morroco Mule:

What is it about patriotism that screams reactionary?

I think it's not patriotism, but thoughtless blind kneejerk jingoism disguised as patriotism. There's been a lot of that going around in the U.S. lately. BTW, I'm not accusing you personally of this since you seem at least willing to debate the issues.

. . . we did manage to remove the Taliban. . .

Not really. The U.S. loves to carpet bomb, but can't ever commit to deploying ground troops. Bin Laden is alive and well and I predict that he will never be caught. Most of the Al-Qaida leadership escaped intact. The Northern Alliance scum that we backed and replaced the Taliban with are just as bad, but at least Afghanis can now watch porn.
 
 
GreatForm
01:40 / 01.05.02
"but at least Afghanis can now watch porn. "

LOL....That would be worth it for me if I was Afghani.
 
 
The Monkey
02:12 / 01.05.02
The fact that there are a multitude of factual reasons to dislike US foreign policy doesn't mean that every critique of the US is grounded in good reasoning.
Having moved in and around Pakistan and Afghanistan, I can tell you that the intensity of groups like the Taliban, etc., are not always a matter of well-reasoned sociopolitics. A lot of resentment of the US in that part of the world relates to the introduction of memes that:

(1) thee and I would consider "good," such as freedom of religion, open sexuality, and women's suffrage, but are not native to the traditions of the area. My personal stake in this is in the realm of equal rights for nomads such as the Qalandar (and other "Gypsies" of Asia) who currently have very few, as well as for religious minorities, such as the Ahmad who are actively persecuted by government institutions.

(2) Cannot be linearly attributed to a process of the US government, or even corporate influence, but are rather the growth of new consumption demands in a populace as more individuals move about on a global basis and "discover" new things [typically while at university]. While I'm not always *happy* about the changes brought about the new wants for US/non-native products, it's silly to always blame the change process on insidious agency...perhaps you have to be on this side of Campa-Cola (swadeshi) ads to understand.

In other words, the text and emic-logic of the critiques from different parts of the world radically differ from, let's say, most of the positions taken on this board, and I wonder whether the emotive sense of unity in fact has any structural stability in the rhetoric across contexts.

And I must admit a certain degree of incredulity when the collected guilt of the United States is referentially disassociated from that of the European colonial powers (now perceived to be "over," due to the perception that Western Europe has dropped on the prosperity scale vis-a-vis the US), as though the ramifications of the latter are somehow extrudable from the former. There is a certain degree of "you Americans" condescension inherent in this dialogue, often in a self-inflicted fashion.

There is also, in an exceedingly perverse fashion, a denial of agency inherent to this type of argumentation. The non-American non-white "foreigner" is assumed to not merely be uninformed, but a pure subject acted on by forces flowing from the industrial West, apparently incapable of either self-interest, greed, or consumptive desire seperate from these ideas being forced into their brains via external sources. It is assumed that the non-US consumer does not *want*, does not choose to consume goods and services, without the desire being implanted by outside agents.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:55 / 01.05.02
In other words, the text and emic-logic of the critiques from different parts of the world radically differ from, let's say, most of the positions taken on this board, and I wonder whether the emotive sense of unity in fact has any structural stability in the rhetoric across contexts.

That's really interesting - I can see that we (the board) assume things about critiques of the US without really knowing what they are; could you give some examples? I think we (the board) probably assume that other cultures are either jealous or afraid of the US (Morocco Mole), or disgusted by US actions (Dao Jones), becasue that's how we feel about the US (which sort of ties into your last point, I suppose).
 
 
The headmaster
10:28 / 01.05.02
The US is corrupt, evil, etc etc. Has been since it first started killing injuns. America is a civilisation based on a lot of rip-offs, treachery, betrayals, lies and pain. You can't win with the US. The US government says “we’ll be peaceful, unless you don’t do what we want, or if you challenge our position in the world hierarchy, ‘cause then we’ll kill you.”

The question America should be asking themselves is "how can we expect to have peace in a culture that’s built on war?"

For example, if you thought that Bill Clinton is an angel compared to Mr Bush Jnr think again, because there are so many suspicious deaths of individuals in Bill Clinton's orbit thjat it defies coincidence:

FROM A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT SOURCES:

*Ron Brown, secretary of Commerce: Plane crash, four days after grand-jury subpoenas were issued. Brown said publicly he would cut a deal with prosecutors, and told Clinton he was "not going down alone". Two Armed Forces medical examiners confirmed that Brown had a perfectly circular hole in his head that looked like a gunshot wound.

*Ron Brown's attorney, the next day, drive-by-shooting.

*Mary Mahoney, former White House intern, shot five times in execution-style slaying of three Starbucks employees; the other two victims were shot only once. She was going to go public about sexual harassment.

*Vince Foster. White House counselor. Suicide, bullet never found. When Clinton was governer, Hillary, afraid his philandering could affect a presidential race, asked Foster to keep him under surveillance. Ironically, according to Secret Service personnel, Hillary and Foster were themselves carrying on an affair. Foster enlisted jerry Parks, former head of Clinton's security, to conduct the surveillance of Clinton, and Foster's reports to Hillary continued until his death.

*Jerry Parks, gunned down in a car in a deserted intersection two months later. His son said he was building a dossier on Clinton; after he died those files were mysteriously removed from his home. According to his wife, he delivered large sums of money from Mena Airport to Foster at a K-Mart parking lot.

*Russell Welsh. Arkansas State Police investigator, working with IRS on drug-running and money-laundering at Mena: poisoned by Anthrax!

*Kevin Ives and Don Henry, teenagers who witnessed cocain drops at Mena. Their bodies were found on railroad tracks. Initial reports said they fell asleep; paraents had the corpses reexamined, cause of death changed to murder. Before the train arrived, they had been stabbed, and their skulls crushed.

*Six Arkansas citizens who came forward with information about the two teenagers. All were killed before testifying; stabbed, shotgunned, burned, decapitated (coroner ruled death due to natural causes). A local detective said the case was stopped "because it tracks to Bill Clinton being involved in the cover-up".

*Kathy Ferguson, shot in the back of her head - ruled a suicide. The ex-wife of Arkansas trooper Danny Ferguson, who escorted Paula Jones to Clinton's hotel room, and just named a codefendant in her lawsuit. Kathy was t obe a witness for Jones, and was found dead with several packed suitcases.

*Bill Shelton, also shot in the back of his head, ruled a suicide, a month after the death of his fiancee, Kathy Ferguson; he had insisted that she didn't commit suicide.

*James McDougal. Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner; told a reporter he didn't expect to leave prison alive. Heart attack while in solitary confinement; an unusual Prozac level found during autopsy.

*Johnny Lawhon, a mechanic who found a cashiers check made out to Clinton in the trunk of a car left in his repair shop; died when his own car hit a tree.

*Suzanne Coleman, yet another victim shot in the back of her head, ruled a suicide. Had an affair with Clinton when he was attorney general; she was pregnant.

ALSO, LOOK OUT FOR: Gennifer Flowers, who claims "I didn't go public until I felt my life threatened." Former Democratic contributor Johnny Chung, also afraid he'd be murdered. Monica Lewinsky, who told Linda Tripp "I would not cross these people for fear of my life". Tripp, who now has a $30.000 bodyguard, courtesy of American tax dollars. And Paula Jones, who said on CNN: "If I come up strangely dead, I didn't kill myslef".

I'm not doing this to freak any of y'all out. I think its important to look at what we are dealing with here; what the potential truth is, hideous as it appears, which is occurring under our very noses.
 
 
Hieronymus
11:40 / 01.05.02
Ah geez, not that Bill Clinton-is-Ted-Bundy tripe again.

Snopes disproved that a long time ago, headmaster. It's bunk.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:57 / 01.05.02
Paula Jones, who recently was in that 'Celebrity Boxing' show that Fox put out...
 
 
Dao Jones
13:30 / 08.05.02
Consider this
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:01 / 26.06.02
The latest.
 
 
Grey Area
21:04 / 26.06.02
Other people have made the points I would have made, and made them much more eloquently than I would have managed. But allow me to add a personal nugget:

If you drive around Frankfurt (and that's Frankfurt in Germany), you will notice a large number of cars with different license plates than the German standard (smaller, no city ID). These are not from another European country, these are US army plates identifying the vehicle as being driven by a member (or family member) of the US armed forces stationed around Frankfurt. It's a small detail, but what am I meant to think about the Americans around me when they have the seemingly calculated arrogance not to even adopt our license plates? And when I am informed that accidents involving these vehicles are a nightmare because they're treated according to a different highway code?

As I say, it's a small detail, but one that stuck in my gullet when I saw it. I echo the view of most other posters in this topic that I respect the ideal of the US, but am very scared of what it has become. My two cents (Euro-cents, that is).
 
  

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