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Small rant from a patriot

 
  

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Harold Washington died for you
06:38 / 20.04.02
I love the United States of America. We have done a lot of fucked up shit and continue to do it to this day (example: this Venezuela bullshit.) But the bad things do not negate the good. I read and hear in the international media a lot of resentment towards the USA. I am wondering why.

US movies, computers, books, television, drugs, science, etc. are as a whole entertaining, enlightenting, and improving the quality of life for a bunch of people all over the world.

The USA and NATO allies kept the USSR in check. We have an all volunteer armed forces that is the greatest of any in history. And we do not go around, for the most part, and take over anyone who peacefully disagrees with us. Seems reasonable, but every country before the US who has held the heavyweight belt has pretty much invaded everyone.

The USA keeps our borders relatively open to whoever needs our help. I live in Columbus, Ohio, about as 'middle America' as it gets. We have here a sizable Somali refugee community. These people are not herded into squalid refugee camps and denied almost everything but allowed to become citizens after the requsite processes and enjoy life as an American. Perhaps they are not living as well right now as the Rich White Men, but their children and grandchildren will be doctors and lawmakers.

The Bill of Rights is still the most progressive set of laws in existance, and allows freedoms that most democratic countries have failed to match. The fucking KKK gets to put Christmas decorations on the Statehouse lawn. Not because anyone likes them much, but because they are blessed to live in my country and say whatever they want.

Hard to be the best. I know of awful acts committed in the name of the USA, and it is easy to hate those acts. But I assume that the average person of any nationality is no more knowledgeable about the legitimately evil things we've done than the average American is (read as "not very").

I think that most of this ill feeling is plain jealousy, and that's sad.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:48 / 20.04.02
So, for example, the Venezuelans (?) who lost family members in the US-sponsored coup against their democratically elected government are just plain jealous?
 
 
Dao Jones
10:47 / 20.04.02
I love the idea of your country. I respect you for wanting that idea to be the truth. But from the outside - and to many within who have taken the time to look hard and honestly - the US looks very different. I'm going to try to show you as gently as I can, but please recognise, I'm basically a confrontational person, so if I slip, you'll have to cope.

US movies, computers, books, television, drugs, science, etc. are as a whole entertaining, enlightenting, and improving the quality of life for a bunch of people all over the world.

Carrying with them US culture, and sometimes swamping local industries. Bringing, also, US incarnations of social problems, and US shapes of living which are alien and threatening. Understand, many of the things you refer to are mistrusted by huge groups within the US. Why should it be different elsewhere? But you cannot prevent those things from entering you country - the US is adamant about that. Penalties will apply.

Drug companies are not philanthropic organisations. The prices they set are often beyond poorer countries, and when their patents (long in profit) are violated, the US government swiftly steps in to prosecute. When they permit cheaper dispersal, it is often with outdated drugs. The third world has been used as a testing ground, too, for untested products. All this and more has been documented in recent months by US news agencies.

US movies, TV, and books, are not generally considered 'enlightening' within or without the US. Examples of the more gross US distortions of history are 'U-571' and 'Saving Private Ryan', both of which foster the US perception that the US was the major player in WWII, and the European nations were just sitting around waiting to be saved. Casualty estimates vary - but the following table gives an idea of why Europe finds that hard to swallow. Remember, many of the survivors are still alive. WWII Casualties

Don't get me started on such gems as 'Lethal Weapon 2', 'The Patriot', and 'Phantom Menace'....

Moving on...

The USA and NATO allies kept the USSR in check.

And in the process, we all did very, very bad things to the rest of the world, for which they quite understandably, hate us. Take, for example, Chile, where a moderate socialist government in the process of major reform was replaced by Pinochet, who tortured his way through much of the population to uphold his government. And who helped him? The boys from Langley, Virginia. And they are apparently quite unrepentent about it. The CIA World Factbook Entry for Chile gives a somewhat slanted summary of history. Read the two side by side, and understand why Chileans do not, as a rule, regard the US as their friend.

That's just one example. I'm afraid there are many, many more. So when you say 'we do not go around, for the most part, and take over anyone who peacefully disagrees with us', I'm afraid much of the world would argue with you.

The Bill of Rights is still the most progressive set of laws in existance, and allows freedoms that most democratic countries have failed to match.

All the more painful, then, that your continued support of oppressive monarchies in the Middle East denies such rights to others. Within the borders of the US, you jealously guard your freedoms. When dealing with other nations, however, the rights of their people are secondary to the US economic and strategic interest.

But more, your Bill of Rights is under seige from within. Check these stories. It is interpreted and re-interpreted to suit the prevailing prejudice.

I think that most of this ill feeling is plain jealousy, and that's sad.

This is the party line, you know. It's the oft-repeated truism which your public officials use to explain away bad feeling levelled at your country. The attacks in September were explained as the actions of a madly prejudiced and violent organisation with no legitimate grievance against a nation of peace. The attacks were ghastly, evil, and stunning. But they were not conducted randomly or out of envy. Chomsky's interview on September 11 is a good starting point for discussion. And whilst it's hard to imagine, from the point of view of someone who believes in the US, that any of the murky doubts about Bush's secondary motivations for the war in Afghanistan might have any truth, the rest of the world sees a nation, and a leader, with no respect for anything beyond the borders of the US.

And these little gems don't help:

From CNN: Bush declares war on the Environment

From ENN: Bush and the Environment

From The Guardian: Bush soft-pedals on allies' human rights violations

And from Human Rights Watch, regarding one of those allies: Chechnya.

Do you see?

There's so much more of this stuff, and none of it's better. There's a book called 'Rogue State' written by an ex-State Department official named Blum, which assesses the US on the terms it uses to look at other nations. The results are not favourable.

The US behaves as if it has a moral mandate. Other nations do not see it that way. Have I touched your certainty?

I hope so.
 
 
shirtless, beepers and suntans
20:25 / 20.04.02
i share your frustration, morocco mole. people like you and me just need to keep in mind that the united states is an easy target for resentment because it's the pre-eminent power in the world right now. it's like being a celebrity or a politician; people are going to emphasize the bad and overlook the good. we shouldn't take it personally, though.
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:34 / 20.04.02
Originally by Dao Jones:

The US behaves as if it has a moral mandate

And the trouble is that this moral mandate is looked upon as the epitomy and is enforced, even perhaps on people who don't share that particular moral view.

I don't fear or loathe Americans. In fact I love some of them quite dearly. But I do fear America.

Zoom.
 
 
Dao Jones
21:16 / 20.04.02
Hey, you.

Shirtless Moron.

I didn't sit there and type all that stuff in for the sake of a few laughs, okay?

Do you dispute any of the examples I've given there? Are you telling me they are somehow not relevant? Or worse, do you simply not see what's wrong with what is described?

These are not isolated incidents in an otherwise glowing career. They are what the world sees, as much as Hollywood and Silicon Valley, as much as humanitarian efforts in Bosnia and aid to Africa.

Your country should be a shining light. It is sometimes a shadow. The very possibility that this is true, the barest suggestion that it might be, ought to rouse you to examine the facts and remake your nation in the image of what it seeks to be - fair, free, open, just, tender, tolerant, wise. You do the US a grave disservice if instead you take refuge behind throwaway notions of 'envy' and the idea that the world distrusts you simply because you are rich. The world distrusts you because, in the non-US perception increasingly, your actions do not match your words, and your covenants are broken when it is convenient (as here - a web search using appropriate keywords will find confirmation if you're concerned that Monbiot is biased against the US - including this article which specifically states that "diplomats have confirmed that the tensions are the result of Bustani's attempts to send a chemical weapons inspection commission to Iraq that is not dominated by the United States" and adds that "Over 79 states have not yet met their contributions, including the OPCW's major donor, the United States, leaving 60 percent of the 2002 assessed contributions to the organization outstanding" - so in other words, the US is demanding a conference to assess the leadership of an organisation desperate need of funds, whilst at the same time holding back on over half its funding, which it has previously agreed to pay. Can you see why that looks bad to the rest of the world?)

And you should take it personally. Not the anger directed at your nation, but the actions of that nation. They are your personal responsibility: that's the price you pay for demanding democracy. If your government acts, it acts on your behalf. If your army kills, it does so at your behest. You, personally, and every other American. So if you don't like what I'm saying, and you can't show me that it's not true, you have to act, or be complicit.

You are responsible.

That's the nature of power.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
21:37 / 20.04.02
Why is it that people who call themselves "Patriots" can never look at their own country critically?

>>sigh<<
 
 
netbanshee
21:49 / 20.04.02
All are "responsible" here as none of us get out alive...many fare not quite as well as others. It's my fault give or take why the world is the way it is as are you and where you're from. Very few of us have been handed what we have.

For one, I am glad to be born in the US as it offers moreso than anywhere else, the chance to do as I please and maybe get a bit of surplus. Not that this is the case for me now, but the possibility seems pretty good. But as I am a critical bastard and one whose compendium of reasons to doubt the media and national belief, I agree with Dao, to speak no evil and prop oneself up as the "example" is a very stupid thing to do when the actions your state takes do not align themselves with the projected image. This is one thing that I have the biggest difficulty with...Image vs. Reality.

I think, that if you want to be the world's greatest problem solver, you have to be unselfish...something that human nature tends to be at odds with. But I do feel, that if any state has done more good things for the people of the world, it might just be the US. What I'm asking, is who's done the most overall harm to the world? So...let's be pessimistic and apply the law of averages shall we. I just see tooting one's horn as a way to rest on one's laurels, not as a catalyst for progressive thinking and change. My 2ยข.
 
 
Utopia
21:53 / 20.04.02
patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel
 
 
m. anthony bro
22:25 / 20.04.02

You say "US movies, computers, books, television, drugs, science, etc. are as a whole entertaining, enlightenting, and improving the quality of life for a bunch of people all over the world. " And, granted, sometimes this is true. But, Americans invented condensed milk, and we like condensed milk, it doesn't mean we have to throw our props up to America because it merely exists.
And:
(1) don't even get started on American drug companies, man. That's not a pretty route to follow
(2) you see american tv every single day, and so do we. only one country makes tv more asanine than that (hint: australia)
American culture isn't very enlightening. It's the most repressed in the western world. Enlightened, how?

Y'know, I love my country too. It's small, and pretty and the people are nice. I don't hate your country, but sometimes I find it very hard to like. The Venezuela thing is a good example of why, as is the desire to tamper with our anti-nuclear legislation, and various other bits of blatant interference with the sovereignty of other nations.
 
 
Hieronymus
22:26 / 20.04.02
Mole, I'd recommend skimming the Demonization of America thread.

It's the arrogance of the American agenda, mole, that gets us into trouble. The haughty attitude that what we do is a God-ordained mandate and to hell with anyone else who disagrees, no matter what. We are NOT the only country on this planet. So why do we act like we are?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:19 / 21.04.02
bizanchee wrote: " I am glad to be born in the US as it offers moreso than anywhere else, the chance to do as I please and maybe get a bit of surplus"

even that is not quite true, the usa is actually incredibly conservative (guess it depends where you go).

this thread is making me cough up my guts with indignance. way to go, dao, for once we are right in agreement. thankyou for responding in such a detailed and scholarly fashion to something many might only be able to gasp at.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
11:40 / 21.04.02
I'm an American and I hate most of the stuff my government does overseas. At BEST we treat the world with benign neglect, only caring when our oil is in trouble, and at worst taking away the freedoms of others that we ourselves hold most dear.

The saddest part? When you point it out to other people, it's not Patriotically Correct, and you are thought of as "Bashing America First."

Why is it so hard to say, "I like the ideas we have here. Can we please put them into effect?"
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:54 / 21.04.02
aww, come on: america gave us the banana splits show. we can forgive the odd bombing campaign, right?

um, surely the kkk does rather more than talks? therefore it rather impinges on the freedom of many others? i'm sure they put up some pretty lights, though.

i fear america, as an institution. because i think its actions are more likely to wipe us out that those of anyone else.
 
 
Ganesh
12:19 / 21.04.02
Thanks, Dao. I too was spluttering with indignation at the first post in this thread but was insufficiently researched to articulate exactly why.
 
 
shirtless, beepers and suntans
19:02 / 21.04.02
dear "dao jones",

my apologies if i gave the impression that my first post was in response to yours. i thought that by directly addressing morocco mole, i could make it clear that i wasn't referring to anything you posted. but i guess i was wrong.

all arguments made on this board, i believe, are worth listening to, but it's going a little far in presuming to that i read, and was responding to, yours (i didn't, and i wasn't. it wasn't intentional, though).

but since you became so incensed at the thought that another person might actually have a view that's different from yours, i went ahead and read it. clearly, it's the most provocative text since "Common Sense," which, ironically, is something you sorely lack. and that's all i'll say about that.

at the risk of sounding like your typical arrogant, uninformed american, i'd like to say that i'm amused--though not surprised--at the rancor and intolerance on this board toward political views that deviate even slightly from the mean.

but wouldn't it be the most hilarious thing ever if i were to be banned from posting here for expressing views that are for the most part (gasp!) right-of-extreme-left? i think so.

now.........LAY IT ON ME!

love,
mike
 
 
Hieronymus
19:31 / 21.04.02
Mike, while it might fuel your ego to believe this board is a militant-left institution that responds to dissenting opinions with frothing-at-the-mouth rancor and dispensed banishments, it might break your heart to know that doesn't happen. Sorry.

No one is saying you can't have a different opinion. What they ARE saying is be prepared to defend it and defend it logically without patronizing them. Simply calling it 'provocative' and then clamping your hands over your ears doesn't do a fair job of putting forth your ideas. I, personally, would like to hear them.

As for Dao responding to your comments... you post on a public board, you'll get a public response. Simple.
 
 
The Natural Way
19:36 / 21.04.02
Babies get cuggle-ups and then everything is special.

Why is it that every prick who turns up here banging on about how fucking great America is fails to address any of the arguments put to them, and then go on to accuse others of "lacking common sense..etc"?

Jealous? Oh, you definitely need a cuggle-up....

Nobody's going to ban you, but fuck knows what yr doing on Barbelith.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:41 / 21.04.02
Good lord. That man is deliberately poking Dao Jones with a sharp stick.

[puts down joint and stands back]
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
19:47 / 21.04.02
>>at the risk of sounding like your typical arrogant, uninformed american, i'd like to say that i'm amused--though not surprised--at the rancor and intolerance on this board toward political views that deviate even slightly from the mean. <<

I haven't seen any rancor, just some well-reasoned arguements and sourses that show WHY people might not think American policy is soft and cuddly...and you say it might get you kicked off as you attack the people who answer your question?

*looks exasperated*

I am SO tired of right wing people who declare that they win because they dismiss debate. I am also tired of people who see when their points are addressed saying that it is intolerance that people don't automatically accept what you say.

This is not a newsgroup. This is not a Yahoo list about old comics. This is not a Rush Libaugh discussion group. If you make a point, you haveto defend it.

So get down off of your high horse and down here in the straw and play with us. We LIKE differing viewpoints, but you have to back them up with some facts.

So...you think the US is a great shining beacon to Truth and Liberty leading the way for the world...back it up by showing how many countries we have brought to a free democracy, and give examples. Then I'll have examples of the US setting up dictatorships (and yes, the coup in Venezuala will count). Then we can have a discussion instead of the normal internet "I can't defend my ideas so you guys suck." discussion.

Please?
 
 
The Monkey
19:58 / 21.04.02
" There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast. The first kind if what one might call nationalism. Nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favour by dominating all of them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most commn variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth.

The second type of patriot...[loves] his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his county when it was obviously in the wrong, or failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor. Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country...[the second kind of patriot] loves his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister. "
-- Louis de Bernieres

Of course, one could dice up critique of a nation in the same fashion, and with the same infinite possibility of admixture.
 
 
The Monkey
20:22 / 21.04.02

Solitaire - barring the people on this board, I'd say your average left-wing person in the US operates on some pretty flimsy thinking, and ultimately relies on non-debate, too. Of course, the majority of politicians on this globe ultimately have no real political affiliation, merely self-interest and selfishness (with the occasional sidebar into obsessive preoccupation with an ideology, which in and of itself is a form of selfishness).

Vis-a-vis the first post: the US had far less to do with "holding back" the USSR than the crippling poverty of that country, not to mention the utter alienation of leadership from the constituency; the govt-encouraged fear of "capitalist imperialist" saboteurs and collaborators; the continual infighting and misappropriation of funds by Party members (partilcularly in the Duma, but basically all the way up the chain of bureaucracy); pogroms against ethnic minorities; continual surveillance by the NKVD, Cheka, KGB of the population, leading to "disappearances," etc.. The USSR fell apart attempting the very end to present a facade of "we're doing just fine" to the rest of the world, as well as it's own citizenry.

What the US was doing was engaging in it's own little paranoid fantasy world, based upon the idea of the "Domino Effect" (snort, laugh) held by certain key members of strategy-building Committees and agencies - Harry Truman and J Edgar Hoover did more to guarantee the path the US took than any other men, although JFK deserves honorable mention for his irrational fear of "Commies" - further facilitated by the more pragmatic interests of various elected figures (intertwined with corporations who funded them to do so) regarding the "opening" of resources from underdeveloped countries....
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:44 / 21.04.02
"I think the puppet on the right represents my views...I prefer the puppet on the left...wait a minute, they're both being held up by the same man!" - Bill Hicks

I love the idea of America, where people are free and we have a representational democracy.

But.

There are times that the government must act for the better of the people in a way that the people will not like. Segregation was damn popular in its day, but through time it had to be ended through a long fight that cost lives and political careers.

Currently, we are in the grasp of large companies that dictate policies to our politicians, and in reutrn they subvert the rights of the people and stifle their voice. I don't care what anyone says, Bush and his people stole the election and have made our country a banana republic for their corporate gods.

Our foreign policy is WHY we were attacked and will continue to be attacked once our attention goes back to the Robert Blake trial.

Dividing people into right and left just makes it easier to distract us from the fact that things aren't good, aren't getting better and we are easily distracted.

One thing Bush has done that I liked was when he gave a speech about the IDEA of America. Our Constitution is a work of art in many ways, and the Declaration of Independance was a brilliant work of fusing Natice American beliefs with European forward thinking of the time. There are times I am amazingly proud of the people who live in the US and their person depth of caring...but I also know that it is married to a selfishness and willful ignorance of the rest of the world that baffles me at the same time.

Can you think how great it woudl be if we not only allowed democracy back in our own country, and then helped it spread to other countries? And I don't mean voting based on ad campaigns, but the kind of debate that has left this country because we have the attention span of a ferret after 5 double esspressoes?

And it's the ones who question things that have the best chance of making it happen, while your children are sleeping and your puppy is crapping. (thanks FZ)

Jealousy?

Not hardly.

It's the anger for knowing that it is possible and we're being kept from it.

But we're learning what to do about it, and it's not accepting what we've been told, and it's not thinking that change isn't possible because it always gets stopped by the people in charge.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
20:58 / 21.04.02
Well well, thank you all. I read most of the "Demonization" thread and all of the links and comments in this thread. I was hoping and fearing that there would be a lot more ad hominem attacks then there has been so far.

Backed up with proof (that I have neither the time or energy to check out) I won't argue with any of the points that have been made towards the fact that the USA 'suspends' some of our most cherished ideals when we go abroad. I vote twice every year, fill petitions I agree with and and on rare occasions talk to my congressional office. I feel I am doing all I can within reason to take an active part of my republican/capitalist democracy. I would like to see my country behave more like the first examples I raised because it is those points that made America the preeminent power it is today.

My initial argument is that all the (subjective) good that comes from America is readily apparent to all corners of the world. But in my country a great deal of the bad things we do are either never reported in the media or, when they are reported, are put in section C page 47 of the local, underground, alternative paper. I assumed that the same would be true all over the world; a good deal of the 'black bag' operations of the CIA, the interference in the internal politics of friendly nations, etc. would be equally underhyped in various foreign media. Mainly because it just isn't as interesting as a good sex scandal or sports recap. With that assumption I thought that this general hostility towards the USA was jealousy, or expanded to national dimensions, the dumb patriotism that Monkey -- fez optional mentioned.

Is it true that every slob and dirt farmer in the world knows about the Chile/Pinochet disgrace? Or all the other sundry mistakes we have made? Or is it blind jingoism directed towards the US because "they are rich and powerful and we are miserable and can't afford Longbow Apache gunships and the production costs of "Star Wars: Episode II"?

The educated disdain for US policies I can tolerate, and for the most part agree with. The green-eyed monsters, which I firmly believe exist, are widely publisized over here and fuel the stupid patriotism of our slobs and dirt farmers. Dosen't make it right of course, but one must sympathize with their viewpoint.
 
 
Dao Jones
21:48 / 21.04.02
Moron:

I know you weren't responding to my post, my friend, and my point is this: you should have been. If you believe in the US, or if you believe in the democratic project, these are issues you must address. Otherwise, you're just a zealot like any other: foaming, furious, fatuous.

Telling me I lack 'common sense' is a sad defense of a nation, and a set of ideas, which deserves far better. It's the kind of Forrest Gump drivel the rest of the world listens to with a sinking heart, just as it does when George W. Bush uses the word 'misunderestimate' three times in one brief speech.

But you've provided a vindication for my existence - only last week I was accused of being a fascist on this board. Now I'm part of the great leftist conspiracy. It seems I'm offending all the right people.

Mole:

You may be sure that people across South America, from farmers to refuse collectors to miners to bankers, are well aware of the CIA connections to the Pinochet regime. It wasn't a big secret at the time, it was just not officially admitted until recently. And it wasn't just there, as I'm sure you know.

But 'sundry mistakes'? Mole...I'm sorry. These are not mistakes. Nor are they abberations which somehow distract from what the US 'is really like'. They represent a powerful aspect of the culture of US foreign policy (in the case of the external examples) and internal political situation (in the case of the ACLU cases). They are against the spirit in which the US was founded. They are not alien to the nation as it now stands. That's not to say they 'are' the US. But they are an aspect of it and denying the existence of that aspect just makes it stronger.

As to envy...impossible to prove or disprove. But put it this way: I think I've given you enough reasons to wonder whether, if no one was envious, a large portion of the world might not still distrust and even dislike the US.
 
 
m. anthony bro
00:21 / 22.04.02
Of course you're right, mole. America does some good things. It's just that the bad things smart a little right now. And, yeah, it's not that they're one off whoopsies, it's that they're ongoing and interfering. I mean, sure, thanks for the good times, but the people who want to tell the rest of us what to do, no doubt a completely different group of Americans, they're annoying me.
And, you, being a completely different American again, probably can't see what all the fuss is about, but you have to trust me when I say that we know how to govern ourselves, it's just that some people in Washington don't believe us.
The dilemma is how far America and the lack of love for it goes, and who ends up on the shit list for it. Middle America has to take part of the blame, because in the face of the most stupid and corrupt governance in the Western world, it keeps giving it props. Middle America therefore gives tacit approval while remaining stupid as to what they're doing. And, in that case, the annoyance spreads pretty far indeed.
But, then, as a country taken on its merits, yeah America does make some good things, and it's not exactly satan's own country. But, you can bank on two things: (1) you don't know the half of it and (2) you're being lied to. It's a given.
 
 
The Knowledge
00:20 / 23.04.02
That's the thing about the republicans, and any right-wing group in general - They don't feel the need to justify what they think - their hate feeds the certainty that they represent some-kind of absolute definitive moral imperative, one that has always and will always exist.

I'm sure though, deep-down, Morocco Mole knows he is wrong...remembers why he is wrong....likes that he is wrong and that his fury can make that wrong right...
 
 
Jack Fear
03:37 / 23.04.02
Must be nice o be able to read minds, Lono.
 
 
Dao Jones
09:37 / 23.04.02
any right-wing group in general - They don't feel the need to justify what they think

Justify this, please.

Morocco Mole knows he is wrong...remembers why he is wrong....likes that he is wrong and that his fury can make that wrong right.

Lono...Mole has been courteous, flexible, and thoughtful throughout this exchange - and I've thrown some fairly considerable mud at ideas which are fundamental to many liberal/left Americans, let alone anyone who identifies with the right-of-centre - which, incidentally, Mole may not. 'Fury' has not made an appearance, and nor has 'hate'.

I suggest you try again.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:13 / 23.04.02
I believe that a great part in America's strength and power comes from its self-confidence as a nation and its belief that it is right. On the other hand, the UK's great problem is that it's a country that finds it very easy to be cynical about power, celebrates failure and continually criticises and snipes at itself.

Or to look at it the other way, America is bluff, self-satisfied and doesn't listen hard enough and the UK is realistic, less concerned with image and more with substance and generally less gullible as a nation.

You could make a case for either of these positions because they are the SAME position - America IS an international bully, that believes almost unconditionally in its own correctness and that allows it to be a globally dominant brand and culture. THe UK doesn't have that fire any more, so it's not as glamourous, thrusting or generally misguided. It's the responsibility of everyone to look towards the successes and failures of their respective regimes.

Noone on this board would ever argue that America is ALONE in the world in terms of behaving badly. Certainly the British Empire used to do nothing BUT exploit and manipulate in order to maintain it's own power. And today the British government (along with most western democracies) still do appalling things.

The only difference is that we're not the dominant power in the world at the moment - and the country that IS the dominant power encourages its citizens NOT to look at the behaviour of its government abroad. We should ALL look towards the acts that are committed in our name - wherever we come from and make sure that they are acts that we're proud of, or at least not ashamed of. The freedoms that America stands for at home are being supported on the lack of those freedoms abroad. It's important that you know that... Or at least trust us enough to investigate it further...
 
 
The Mr E suprise
14:24 / 23.04.02
The idea that the peoples of one nation are jealous of another makes me wonder.

America has Hollywood, is vast and is at the forefront of innovation. The UK has the BBC,the remains of it's empire, and a lot of its brightest and best go and work in the States because the pay and facilities are better.

Yeh, I'd like the UK to be a better place. I'd like to be better person as well, but there's only so much I can do about both of those.

A more honest thing is to say: America scares me. It does. I live many miles away from the States, but everytime I hear that Bush refuse to sign this or that treaty, or has decided that Global Warming isn't an American problem or whatever, I worry. And there's very little I can do about it but it effects me.

I've never been to the US. I hope to some day soon. What I've heard and gathered about American attitudes worries me. I've argued with American friends over the international politics, and the idea that 'America invented Democracy' came up (as well as a host of over things). That worried me too. How can someone not know that to be incorrect?

We joke about Gore 'inventing the internet' but at the core of it there's a feeling that America is only concerned with America, and when they're the biggest boys in the sandpit, that's scary.
 
 
The Knowledge
21:57 / 23.04.02
I said:

"any right-wing group in general - They don't feel the need to justify what they think"

To which Dao replied: "Justify this, please."

Well, it is in the way that ALL RIGHT-WING groups support regimes and power structures and belief systems that scientific, rational thought argue against. THEIR WAYS OF DOING THINGS DON'T WORK. It's that simple. And they won't accept that they're wrong because thay have bitter, twisted souls fed by pure hate, and they thrive off that hate, the fuckers, they thrive...

I said:
"Morocco Mole knows he is wrong...remembers why he is wrong....likes that he is wrong and that his fury can make that wrong right."

To which Dao replied:
Lono...Mole has been courteous, flexible, and thoughtful throughout this exchange - and I've thrown some fairly considerable mud at ideas which are fundamental to many liberal/left Americans, let alone anyone who identifies with the right-of-centre - which, incidentally, Mole may not. 'Fury' has not made an appearance, and nor has 'hate'.

I suggest you try again."

Hate can take many forms. Hate is the shape-changing serpent, my friend, and it is ramppant in the beast that crawls underground...
 
 
Tom Coates
22:38 / 23.04.02
Lono - I think the reason that Dao wants you to explain your position with examples rather than simply characterising the right wing as stupid and/or evil is because it's too easy a position to hold. A large proportion of the people on this board do feel that right-wing politics is a politics of ignorance, nationalism and repressive, backward-looking values. But it's not enough to simply say that, you have to SUPPORT it.

This whole thread is about someone who holds attitudes that probably aren't generally held on the board. And that's absolutely fine. But just as we'd ask them to respond to legitimate argument and evidence, we have to ask those who criticise them to SUPPLY legitimate argument and evidence for them to respond to!
 
 
The Knowledge
22:43 / 23.04.02
Vietnam.
Maggie Thatcher.
The Poll Tax.
Nixon.
JFK.
The bay of pigs.
The Gulf War.
The war in Afghanistan.
Destruction of society and the erosion of the ecosystem.
"Because there ought to be limits on freedom"
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
22:53 / 23.04.02
We should ALL look towards the acts that are committed in our name - wherever we come from and make sure that they are acts that we're proud of, or at least not ashamed of.

Tom for President!
 
  

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