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Anyone fancy a fag? Is "hate speech" in the eye of the beholder?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 18.04.02
From elsewhere:

"Fag" I would not consider an insult. Is this evidence of homophobia? I'm not sure it is unless (he) means to imply that fags are waspish and self-loathing in general.


In a perfect world, your idea that "fag" could only possibly be seen as insulting if one was homophobic would be the case, but alas this is not the case. The same argument would have users of the word "nigger" as a term of abuse branded as racist only if they were implying by the phrase "lazy stupid nigger" that *all* niggers were lazy and stupid. "Fag" is not a neutral term used to describe a gay man. It is a piece of hate speech.


you might have a point about the use of the word "fag", but I'm still not sure whether this is absolutely true. Perhaps insult is in the eye of the beholder. From your perspective, experience may justify your classification of "fag" as hate speech. I agree the use of this word is best avoided.

Well, quite. I guess that lays the groundwork for the question. Which is further complicated by the idea of reclamtion - or is it? I certianly know people who are quite happy to call themselves "big poofs", but would generally assume that "Poof!" shouted at them in the street would normally have a very different weighting.

So, is it possible to use a word like "poof", "faggot", "nigger", "bitch" and so on in a totally neutral way, i.e. without an intent to insult or offend or a reclamatory desire or a "prearranged" (implicitly or explicitly)understanding negotiated on a person-by-person or case-by-case basis (for example, but by no means exclusive to, BDSM scenes)?

And, in a related topic, in the same thread the use of the word "twat" to describe somebody in a derogatory fashion was described as "misogynistic". Is the same thing going on here? My instinct is that there *is* a difference, as what might be called "ladypart words" by Chris Morris are not tied to a particular personal characteristic (anyone can be called a cunt with about the same effect, whereas calling somebody a faggot, a bitch or a nigger is aimed at pathologising a very specific elements of their self or self-expression), but that the use fo a part of female anatomy as an expression of something unpleasant may still be identified as misogynistic, or at least problematic. The counterargument probably being something along the lines that they are genericised terms separated from their original meaning in the same way that "wanker", "tosser" or "fucker" are not direct reflections atttributing the acts described by the word in its original sense to the person being addressed.

So, at the risk of pissing Ganesh off, thoughts?
 
 
The Monkey
16:05 / 18.04.02
There's a whole area of anthropology which deals with "joking relationships" and how in different cultures there are different configurations of who-can-say-what-to-whom (without a fight breaking out) which are governed by complicated and often overlapping rules of interpersonal dynamics, significance of elements of shared interpersonal history, and cultural etiquette.

Hate speech, I guess then, exists in the social dynamic between speaker and subject. What in the European-American context makes hate speech so marked is that there is mass consensus that certain words are consciously rude and intended to denigrate. "Fag" as referent to a person is consensus negative, not neutral, within the body politic of modern culture. It only becomes marked neutral - or simply less negative - when used within the context of a close enough social relationship that insults are not taken seriously.
 
 
aussieintn
16:07 / 18.04.02
You've got a real problem here with the acceptance and use of terms varying from one place to another. Where I am, "damn" is considered a "cuss word" and a person is well advised to be very careful with the use of it. Where I come from, few people will comment on the use of the word "fuck", and "damn" would not even be noticed. An objective standard might be impossible to find.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 18.04.02
Aussie - not really. "Damn", "darn", and "fuck" are expletives not presupposing a particular subject. "I stubbed my toe on that fucking rock" is logical, "I stubbed my toe on that faggot of a rock" not.

Also, we are not really talking about the "force" - that is, the obscenity level if such a thing there be - of a word as much as we are its "angle", or something along those lines. "Cunt" is a much more acceptable term in the UK than in most of the US, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether its use is demeaning to women.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:13 / 18.04.02
You know what this is? It's political correctness gone mad.

Actually, I agree with Monkey when s/he says:

It only becomes marked neutral - or simply less negative - when used within the context of a close enough social relationship that insults are not taken seriously.

That's a very succint summary, and I think there's an assumption of closeness on the net that a lot of people have. Oops, must catch bus, more some time later.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:15 / 18.04.02
Well of course hate language depends on context, as well as the society from which its coming. I've actually often stopped to consider the actual absurdness of calling someone gay or fat as an insult, say. On a very removed level it simply indicates what our prejudices are. But when you stop to consider how absurd it is to call someone "tall" as an insult, you sort of see what I mean.

Anyway I have to think more about this 'til I can respond properly.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
16:23 / 18.04.02
I believe that all of these words should be taken as offensive as a general rule, covering about 90-95% of their usage in conversation.

However, ANY speech is probably acceptable to friends. Which leads to my crazy idea: Much as you can tutoyer someone in French or offer the "Du" in German, maybe there can be some grammatical form of nigger or fag or what-have-you that makes it evident in English that it is polite or between friends.
 
 
aussieintn
16:28 / 18.04.02
Haus, my example wasn't meant to apply directly to the subject of hate speech. It was intended only as a general example of how language use and acceptability varies.
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:33 / 18.04.02
I had to change the words in a Brothers Grimm story I was reading to my son because it referred to a "faggot of sticks". I felt really dumb changing it, but I didn't really want my three-year old picking up a bunch of sticks and calling it a faggot, regardless of what he meant.

Sorry, that doesn't really add much. But that's what this thread put me in mind of.

Zoom.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:11 / 18.04.02
cunt and twat are demeaning to women. just listen to the way someone says it and try and argue that it's *not*.

the original (thread title) question: no. can anyone (say, in europe and the US at least) seriously use any of the terms listed by haus and not wish to be offensive or 'political'? i would say, no way.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
17:19 / 18.04.02
From Haus:

(anyone can be called a cunt with about the same effect, whereas calling somebody a faggot, a bitch or a nigger is aimed at pathologising a very specific elements of their self or self-expression)

Really? What if you called a female a cunt?
 
 
moriarty
17:43 / 18.04.02
Two from Haus.

"The counterargument probably being something along the lines that they are genericised terms separated from their original meaning in the same way that "wanker", "tosser" or "fucker" are not direct reflections atttributing the acts described by the word in its original sense to the person being addressed."

""Cunt" is a much more acceptable term in the UK than in most of the US, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether its use is demeaning to women."

In Canada at least, the word "cunt" has not been separated from its original meaning, which would definitely bring into play a difference between the two cultures. I brought the use of the word "cunt" up on the board ages ago, and no one responded. I assumed this was because of the difference in our cultures. Let me assure you, when used as an insult there is no more taboo word than "cunt" on this side of the ocean. Initially I was horrified to see a group of people who were so passionate about equality and cultural sensitivity use such a hateful insult.

Like many people, I'm not opposed to the word itself. I have many friends who say things like "Geez, my cunt is itchy." If it's being used in this way, and I'm not sure that this would be the case in the UK, isn't it possible that it is regaining it's original meaning and will therefore be found to be offensive? "You're a cunt!" = "I consider you to be inferior/dirty like female genitalia" or "You are no more than a part of the female anatomy, without a mind and with only one purpose." This is what I hear every time I hear someone call someone else a cunt, including the times it's used on this board.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:48 / 18.04.02
agreed. i have certainly objected to the use of the word 'cunt' on barbelith. it was one of my first rants.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:59 / 18.04.02
I really had no idea that the word "cunt" was viewed as hateful as the word "nigger" or "faggot" or even "bitch" in the U.S. So calling someone a cunt is bad, but calling someone a dick is okay? In the circumstance of, say, someone backing into your car in a parking lot and driving off without a word to you. I really see no difference.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:15 / 18.04.02
there is a difference, i think. it's a matter of dynamics/power.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:21 / 18.04.02
Hmmm. I can see that. It's odd, though, that it's been glaringly obvious to everyone from the U.S. except me. Come to think of it, I don't know anyone who really uses the word.

I think a good question is whether or not terms generally assumed to be racist, sexist, or homophobic should be adapted to everyday speech with a meaning independent of it's hateful origins, and not simply done away with altogether. But I suppose simply getting rid of them isn't really possible.
 
 
Ierne
18:45 / 18.04.02
Let me assure you, when used as an insult there is no more taboo word than "cunt" on this side of the ocean.– moriarty

I find this to be the case as well (different country, same side of the Atlantic). However, I notice that here in the States people tend to use "pussy" as a derogatory term similar to the usage of "cunt" in the UK, and calling someone a "pussy" is not considered anywhere near as offensive as calling someone a "cunt". There is a component of de-masculinization and weakness inherent in being called a "pussy," however, that may or may not equate with the British usage of "cunt".

The use of either term as an derogatory epithet tweaks me mightily, and usually brings to my lips the equal-opportunity insult "Asshole."
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
18:54 / 18.04.02
I'm in agreement with sfd and moriarty on this one. For me, it also depends an awful lot on context. I wouldn't say "I stubbed my toe on that poof of a rock," perhaps because it's not possible for the rock to have sexual preference either way (or if it is, I'm missing something). However, my flaming friend Tom is fair game for that word (mind you, he usually counters with something like "you pussy of despair!"), but I would never use it on a straight guy. I would perhaps call a guy a dick, if he were being a dick, but I wouldn't call a guy a cunt. I wouldn't call a girl a dick, either. Maybe I only use these "hate" terms in the context of being able to laugh at oneself. And I'd only use them if I knew the other person was of the same mind.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
18:57 / 18.04.02
On the other hand, I use "bastard" quite indiscriminately, even when I have no information about my victim's parentage. Could it be that without the social taboo of being a bastard to back it up, the word loses its offensive sting? Is it possible that "fag" could be used just as happily on that fateful day when finally no-one gives a fuck if you're gay?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
19:10 / 18.04.02
What about the school-yard epithet "gay"? When used in grade school, it was usually a synonym for "lame" or "dorky." If I told some kid his lunchbox was "gay", is that hate speech? This usage seems to be making a campy comeback. Is it okay for me to call someone's PowerPuff Girl's Lunchbox "gay"?
 
 
aussieintn
21:11 / 18.04.02
In Australia, I used the word "pussy" as a synonym for "pussy cat", to imply someone was overly passive or allowing themselves to be treated like a pet cat. I was only marginally aware until I came to the US that here (at least, in this part of the USA) it is almost always considered a euphemism for "cunt" - the exceptions being on the rare occasions when it is actually applied in reference to a cat. I received some unexpected negative reactions as a result of this language difference. Also, "bastard" and "bugger" are considered much nastier here, as well as the "damn" I mentioned earlier. Cross-cultural use of colloquialisms is a minefield.

On the other hand, in both my Australian and US experience, "cunt" is considered to be just about the worst thing to say, and condemned by many as demeaning to women.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:12 / 18.04.02
There is a component of de-masculinization and weakness inherent in being called a "pussy," however...
--Ierne

The phrase "don't be a pussy" (trans.: "you are being cowardly and weak") is pretty misogynistic, but that "don't be a dick" is hardly a compliment**.

On one particularly overthink-y day, I decided that in a perfect world of insults, calling someone a "pussy" would mean that the insultee was exhibiting an unhealthily high degree of stereotypically "feminine" passivity, whereas calling someone a "dick" would imply the corresponding opposite "masculine" aggression and bull-headedness. In both cases, I was assuming that a real live person has a blend of masculine and feminine traits, so that either insult could be used irrespective of gender, and would still be an insult without being a misogynist or misandrist(?) insult.



**Of course, "dick" is bandied about as a joking insult far more often, at least in my region, so it's presumably less offensive generally.
 
 
aussieintn
21:23 / 18.04.02
Dammit, why can't "pussy"="cat"?

[rant]
It's the American penchant for euphemisms. Every offensive word is replaced with a euphemism, then the euphemism becomes so strongly associated with the original word that it is considered just as offensive, so every euphemism is replaced with a euphemism, and thus the cycle continues. Take "bathroom" as an example - a room that commonly does not contain a bath and often not even a shower. In some parts of the US it doesn't even contain a working handbasin. One day you Yanks will run out of freaking'/friggin'/effin' words and every word in the English language will be a euphemism. Then nobody will be able to say anything without offending someone else and communication will become totally bogged (excuse my language!) down. That's what will bring an end to this postmodern world-dominating empire. It will drown in its own prudishness.
[/rant]
 
 
w1rebaby
22:12 / 18.04.02
So, is it possible to use a word like "poof", "faggot", "nigger", "bitch" and so on in a totally neutral way, i.e. without an intent to insult or offend or a reclamatory desire or a "prearranged" (implicitly or explicitly)understanding negotiated on a person-by-person or case-by-case basis (for example, but by no means exclusive to, BDSM scenes)?

This is an intrinsically loaded question. To exclude any understanding ("implicitly or explicitly") is to exclude all possible differential of meaning applied to a word.

How is it meaningful to say "can you use a word entirely neutrally, excluding all understanding of the context?" Words are defined by context.

I would say that, given those criteria, any use of any word is neutral. Without "prearranged" understanding, nothing means anything.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:15 / 18.04.02
Just to add that a "person-by-person or case-by-case basis" can, to my mind, be extended to mean anything from a common understanding based on a decades-old friendship to one based on assumed societal norms.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
22:42 / 18.04.02
It's the American penchant for euphemisms.

I don't think the Americans invented it (see cockney slang for illumination), but would it be fair to say the Aussies have bypassed it entirely by making up new, frequently ticklish-sounding words? My roommate has been waiting for two months for an opportunity to use "stickybeak" in a sentence, so far with no luck.
Okay, end tangent.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:44 / 18.04.02
Just to add that a "person-by-person or case-by-case basis" can, to my mind, be extended to mean anything from a common understanding based on a decades-old friendship to one based on assumed societal norms.

Which is to say, you have failed to grasp the idea that "person-to-person negotiation" means a negotiation between one person and another, rather than the acceptance by two people of a prearranged social or linguistic order dictating their behaviour and the senses of the words they use.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:25 / 18.04.02
a negotiation between one person and another, rather than the acceptance by two people of a prearranged social or linguistic order dictating their behaviour and the senses of the words they use.

And where is the dividing line between negotiation and acceptance of a prearranged order?

I have not explicitly negotiated every nuance of meaning between myself and my friends, there is a certain amount of acceptance of prearranged order. I wouldn't have had time to debate each nuance - if I did, we might as well make up our own language.

When I talk to a stranger, there is a period in which our language aligns itself to a common standpoint. Based on their behaviour, I come to a judgement as to what their perception of the language that I use will be. This can be as broad as what language they are using, or as narrow as how I judge they will react to a certain word. They perform a similar task, we each modify our speech to fit in with the generated consensus and then come to further conclusions for the next exchange. This seems to me a form of non-verbal negotiation. Even a conversation between two neo-nazis about, say, jew-bashing will be modified as each changes tone according to how they think the other will react.

I therefore challenge the idea that any conversation is purely the result of a "prearranged social or linguistic order", since each individual has a different perception of that order to greater or lesser degree, thus negotiation is inevitable. I grasp the concept perfectly well, I just don't agree with it, thank you very much.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:58 / 18.04.02
Very well. The slow and simple version.

Explicit negotiation:

A says to B, "Do you mind if I call you a poof/wop/bitch?"

Implicit negotiation:

After a period of friendship, in which A has frequently referred to himself and others as "poofs", B, in a spirit of ironic bonding, does the same.

No negotiation:

Man on street accuses other man on street of being a shit-stabber.

There are certainly bleed-points between the three conditions. However, this is by some distance the least important element of the question.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:18 / 19.04.02
This will probably be of no help whatsoever, but I want to bring in a nasty big Judy Butler quote from an essay she wrote just before her book 'Excitable Speech' was published. 'Excitable Speech' is about hatespeech. Anyhow, what I wanted to draw from this quote is a more strigent discussion of how the state helps, or doesn't help, negotiations between 'ironic' uses of epithets and hate speech itself. And what role the reclamation of epithets like poof or dyke or fag has in resisting state power. I'm posting this not because I don't think the current discussion, isn't useful, but I think there's a tendency to err on the side of 'in my personal experience I...' which, I dunno, personally I find it boring. (And look, JB's maze of a writing style has infected me, completely, so that probably no-one has even read this far into the praagraph yet!)

Butler says: "I would like to suggest a formulation for the problem that might seem paradoxical, but that I think, even in its hyperbolic mode, might shed some light on the problem that regulating hate speech poses. That formulation is this: the state produces hate speech, and by this I do not mean that the state is accountable for the various slurs, epithets, and forms of invective that currently circulate throughout the population; I mean only that the category cannot exist without the state's ratification, and this power of the state's judicial language to establish and maintain the domain of what will be publically speakable suggests that the state plays much more than a limiting function in such decisions; in fact, the state actively produces the domain of publically acceptable speech, demarcating the line between the domains of the speakable and the unspeakable, and retaining the power to make and sustain that consequential line of demarcation. The inflated and efficacious utterance attributed to hate speech in some of the politicized contexts discussed above is itself modeled on the speech of a sovereign state, understood as a sovereign speech act, a speech act with the power to do what it says. This sovereign power is attributed to hate speech when it is said to deprive us of rights and liberties. The power attributed to hate speech is a power of absolute and efficacious agency--performativity and transitivity at once (it does what it says and it does what it says it will do to the one addressed by the speech). This power of legal language is that to which we refer when we call upon the state to effect the regulation of offensive speech. The problem, then, is not that the force of the sovereign performative is wrong, but when used by citizens it is wrong, and when the state intervenes with its citizens, the force of the performative is, in these contexts, right."

http://www.uchicago.edu/research/jnl-crit-inq/v23/v23n2.butler.html
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:35 / 19.04.02
A bit of a critical jab: this thread was begun as a result of talks on the thread plums began in the Conversation, no?

I notice that the original specific instance of abuse plums started talking about had racial overtones and was obviously to do with racism. Most of the responses, which transposed into this thread, have modulated into a discussion about words like 'fag' and 'cunt' and 'poof' -- which might be similar in that they're all 'hatespeech', but which still elide the specificity of racist/nationalist hatespeech. Even though Haus listed 'racist, sexist, homophobic', there's been little discussion of how racist terms work or how they can function independently of context, if they can...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:39 / 19.04.02
I think there's a tendency to err on the side of 'in my personal experience I...' which, I dunno, personally I find it boring.

I'm going to marry that Mister Disco.

In answer to your question - ironically, this is not a springoff from Plums, but rather the identification of the Haus suit by one of bitchiekittie's friends on the Special Board as "waspish, self-loathing fag". Cue brief discussion on the "Burning Down the Haus" thread on whether "fag" was a) offensive and b) homophobic, and this spin-off.

On race - I'm not addressing it head-on because it's the form of hate speech I have encountered least frequently, but it might help to shed some light on Aussie's objection. Racial terms of abuse, perhaps more than terms of sexual or sexual orientation-based abuse, are regional. For example, Special Boy Dubya does not know that to call a Pakistani a "Paki" is a term of abuse. Bitchiekittie does not know what "wog" means. The UK certainly has very context-specific terms of racial abuse which I suspect would be met with incomprehension elsewhere.

However, once Special Boy Dubya has had somebody explain to him once that "Paki" is an offensive terminology - i.e. that a a large number of Pakistanis are used to hearing it as an insult - if he then uses it again, surely he is doing so in the knowledge that what he is using is a term of abuse, regardless of where he happens to be using it?
 
 
aussieintn
03:03 / 19.04.02
To further muddy the water, I've never heard the word "Paki" used as an insult. In Australia "Pakis" is often used to refer to the Pakistani cricket team. It is used by media commentators, players and the public, probably because it is much shorter than "Pakistan cricket team", and I've never heard of a Pakistani player objecting.

How can "Paki" be an insult? Is "Aussie" also an insult? Is "Brit" an insult? How can a simple abbreviation be an insult, and why is it an insult in reference to Pakistanis and nobody else? Isn't an acceptance of a special value ascribed to this abbreviation of nationality and no other inherently racist? Why do you expect an American President to abide by pointless and inherently racist British use of language?
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:08 / 19.04.02
would it be fair to say the Aussies have bypassed it entirely by making up new, frequently ticklish-sounding words?

huh? what's a ticklish-sounding word?

in Australia, 'cunt' - while basically the least acceptible swear word - doesn't necessarily suggest passivity, weakness or femininity. in fact, it often signals manliness - as in 'he's a hard cunt'. you can use it in any context where you could have used 'bastard' (i.e., he's a hard bastard means the same thing), but not as cock, dick, etc. words for penis are always insults - you can't call someone 'a good cock' the way you can call them 'a good cunt', etc.

more theoretical - i think butler should go back to foucault - the completely centralised model of power in her argument is a big problem for moi. surely 'hate speech' consists of heterogeneous, specific, local, (etc.) interactions and power relations, which the state seeks to reify/codify as an inert object - "hate speech" - it can regulate, suppress, or allow. i think the desire to produce any general account of how hate speech works - including, and maybe especially, asserting that it's context-specific* - is a fairly abject submission to state logics.

* - because it acts as if a uniform object, 'hate speech', becomes heterogeneous through its contexts; rather than that heterogeneous interactions, contexts, power relations, and phenomenon are coded as a uniform object.

which might be why a thread like this turns so quickly towards 'personal experience'...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:37 / 19.04.02
Aussie: I think you've sort of answered your own question. "Paki" is an insult because Pakistanis are insulted by it. Not necessarily all Pakistanis, but there is enough of an English-speaking diaspora and reinflux that GWB's use of the word caused a diplomatic ripple. Since presumably comparatively few Pakistanis a) live in Australia and b) listen to cricket commentary that calls them "pakis", it's kind of under the wire.

Your second line of argument suggests that white (for example) Britons should feel free to call black people "niggers", because the term is not native to their own countries. Is this right?

DPC: I think I agree - that "hate speech" describes not a monolithic block of words identifiable as such, but an endlessly mutating set of exercises of power. But where, if not received ideas of transgressive behaviour, does the power come from.

(Mind you, the fact that many consider various bits of hate speech not to be transgressive may also be noteworthy. Depressing, but noteworthy).
 
  

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