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Underground > Comic Books >

Queer heroes

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Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

12:59 / 11.12.02

Mark Millar says the first 3 issues of Rawhide Kid are, and I quote, 'fucking excellent.'

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The same Mark Millar who has made Antman an drunken wifebeater and the Wasp a woman who likes it?

Another reason to avoid it.

13:14 / 11.12.02

The same Mark Millar who has made Antman an drunken wifebeater and the Wasp a woman who likes it?

Or indeed made the Wasp a husband-beater, to flip the language around.

14:29 / 11.12.02

Does she like it? I didn't catch that. Ant-Man, today's hot topic, was a wife-beater in the Marvel Universe, too - Millar's just riffing.

Don't understand your post LLB.

14:35 / 11.12.02

Does she like it?

I don't know that she likes it, but she certainly knows she's provoking it. And when he smacks her, he recoils in shame, but she then assaults him, not only returning the hit but also clocking him with a radio. There are clues that this is an ongoing thing (the "new start" comment, the "no powers" comment). Not to defend Giant Man here, but the TPB (I've not read the later issues) implies fairly heavily that the abuse in their marriage is mutual.

Which could lead to an intelligent analysis on the one hand, or cack "she asked for it" bullshit on the other. I don't know how it'll play out.

14:38 / 11.12.02

Some people seem to be prejudging The Rawhide Kid. I say at least wait until someone here has a chance to see the first new issue.

17:13 / 11.12.02

Cool, I only read those 6 issues as dotcomics, the once. Thought they were very good, though. #7, the only issue since released doesn't expand on the relationship, nor does Ultimate War.

Rawhide Kid? Might be good, might be shit. Fucked if I know.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

17:27 / 11.12.02

"Yeah, but much 'straighter' than his previous incarnation; plenty of leggy females hanging around to prove he's still 'all man'..."

Err right. The current incarnation who has intercourse and BDSM play with the man trying to destroy him is much straighter than in the past. Right.

The next time I get head from a guy (or give for that matter), I'll remember that it's a very 'straight' thing to do.

Karma has been out as a lesbian for some time now.

And as far as the Rawhide Kid goes, while I fear "Slap Leather" may descend directly into camp, the reading of Rawhide as gay casts a completely different light on his recent APACHIE SKIES miniseries. A rather fascinating light, actually.

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18:41 / 11.12.02

Hey, what about Northstar from Alpha Flight? Wasn't he the first openly gay superhero?

18:51 / 11.12.02

Should "Queer heroes" be more efficiently named "Queeroes"?

09:00 / 12.12.02

The Rawhide Kid? He's going to wear chaps, isn't he? A gay cowboy character. Who wears chaps. And leather. And cowboy boots.

Why do I feel a sudden urge to start singing YMCA?

As to Constantine - he was certainly very gay during Azarello's run (not that I liked that run much, except for the last story arc). I have to say, while I realised S.W. Manor was a parody of Bruce Wayne, it wasn't until I read this thread that I realised what a blatant clue his name is. Duh!

09:12 / 12.12.02

CNN article on The Rawhide Kid

"After looking at the response to those issues they will decide whether to continue production and whether they would be interested in more series with gay title characters."

How about "When no one buys this piece of crap we will decide it was because comic readers don't like westerns or gay people and we will go back to writing nothing but stories about men in tights punching each other."

13:45 / 12.12.02

Well, I don't like westerns. If they're looking for something more "contemporary" and current, and wanting to include issues of sexuality, why not, ohhhh... say, a pedophilic Catholic priest?

No, seriously, he could have some super power (maybe a laser or heat-ray from his crucifix) and heroically save people from evil and damnation, while struggling with his single weakness - like Superman's weakness with kryptonite, except the weakness could be dominating and abusing choirboys. One or more of Father's evil (what is "evil"?) arch-enemies could be vaguely aware or suspect this weakness, and attempt to exploit it at crucial points in the storylines.

The plots could show Father constantly struggling with this terrible secret and evading detection, while at the same time skillfully taking confession, counseling on issues including sex, love and marriage, and performing the rites, rituals and sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

I expect this has already been done, but not by Marvel.

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14:16 / 12.12.02

Well, I think there's a serious lack of gay characters in comics.

Still, I'm not tempted by this "Rawhide Kid" stuff at all. How come the first lead gay character in a comic has to be a cowboy in a western? I do my best to avoid gay characters in westerns, unless William S. Burroughs is writing it.

Someone should do a comic where the superhero team is made up of the spirits of contraversial writers/occultists. Like, um, Aleister Crowley, William S. Burroughs and the Marquis De Sade. They could fight against cops and the rich and government agents: De Sade could fuck his foes to death, Burroughs could use his guns or his books/texts (books/words that kill) and Crowley could use magic.

15:17 / 12.12.02

How come the first lead gay character in a comic has to be a cowboy in a western?

Why not?

15:23 / 12.12.02

Because he should be a choreographer. I mean, duh.

Best line I've heard about this series, from another message board: "So when are the rest of the Village People getting their own comics?"

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17:08 / 12.12.02

I mean, a cowboy is so cliche. I definetly can't imagine many gay comic readers lining up to read such a comic. Maybe striaght people might get a kick out of it though.

17:27 / 12.12.02

...in a "Let's laugh at the silly queers" kind of way?

That's what Marvel is counting on, apparently.

18:57 / 12.12.02

How many gay cowboy characters are there? I can think of one, and that's from the Village People. Not such a cliche then.

This is probably a separate thread, but there is a difference between gay humor and making fun of homosexuals. Or, in our effort to bash a Rawhide Kid book that we haven't even read yet, should we also make sure they remove Jack from Will & Grace etc? I'll admit I don't hold out hope for anything written by Zimmerman, but must all gay characters in comics be po-faced Examples?

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20:51 / 12.12.02

Don't even get me STARTED on "Will & Grace".

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20:53 / 12.12.02

I'm not saying all gay characters need to be examples, but I think you need good gay characters to balance everything out with bad (ie. completely stereotyped) ones. And I haven't seen much of the former I'm afraid.

21:13 / 12.12.02

I'm not saying all gay characters need to be examples, but I think you need good gay characters to balance everything out with bad

In terms of percentage I agree with you, but I think it's terrible to have this notion that gay characters can't be as diverse as het characters. I'm all for gay camp cowboys, hard gay bastards like Midnighter and so forth. I don't see how a camp Rawhide Kid series is necessarily a bad thing. There's room for Will and Jack, if you know what I mean.

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21:43 / 12.12.02

I don't like Will either. Assexual prick.

I still say Will & Grace is a gay show for straight audiences.

I don't mind camp at all actually, hell I love drag queens, but it depends how it's done. Camp can be good but it can fail horribly too. Truth be told, I haven't read "Rawhide Kid" so I can't comment. But my gut is telling me avoid! avoid! and my gut reaction is usually right.

I'm all for diversity too, but most gay characters seem to fall into camp. Maybe I'm just waiting for the gay lead character in a comic book to be a skinny little black-clad necro-puppy who has a taste for experimental electronic music and a perchance for chaos magic (well, like me).

Just kidding...

22:14 / 12.12.02

Stan Lee is appearing on Crossfire on CNN in a few minutes concerning the outing of the Rawhide Kid. They keep making references to Rawhide and the Lone Ranger getting it on. And they apparently listed Stan Lee as the creator of Superman on their website. Fun stuff!

Don't laugh about the Village People as superheroes. SFD and I were talking about doing such a comic a little over a month ago. I still think they'd be perfect.

22:21 / 12.12.02

This just in: John Severin, artist on the Rawhide Kid series and co-creator of the character waaaay back in 1957, is said (by marvel EiC Joe Quesada) to be "delighted" with the revamp: "It makes perfect sense."

And given that Stan Lee (the Rawhide Kid's other co-creator) has been going around taking credit for introducing the first gay character in mainstream comics (Percy Pinkerton of the Howling Commandos: though Percy was never explicitly identified as such, Stan claims he was always writing the character under the assumption that he was gay... so Stan knew he was gay, and we've all got to take his word for it), Marvel's pretty much guaranteed the creators' seal of approval.

The miniseries still has the whiff of the hetero locker-room about it, though.

22:24 / 12.12.02

Don't laugh about the Village People as superheroes...

22:59 / 12.12.02

Yup, that KISS cover pretty much sums it up right there.

The Crossfire segment is priceless. I hope they put up a transcript. A howling Republican watchdog screaming at Stan Lee that comics are obviously only for children, no matter what advisories are on them, and that kids pass these things around like Pokemon cards. Oh, and the Rawhide Kid is an attack by homosexualization on children, sending them mixed messages like, shy people are gay. Stan brings up Percy, believe it or not, and then they try and corner Stan into admitting that Robin is gay.

23:20 / 12.12.02

Just as FYI: CNN usually posts Crossfire transcripts at their website the day after the show. I'll pop by around lunchtime tomorrow and sift it for gems...

23:22 / 12.12.02

Oh, and Sypha?

Assexual prick

Best typo ever.

00:35 / 13.12.02

Woah, woah, woah, why do we have to bring KISS into this?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

01:41 / 13.12.02

Hey, what about Northstar from Alpha Flight? Wasn't he the first openly gay superhero?

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There was a painful Brazilian Stereotype in The New Guardians in the late 80's whose name thankfully escapes me. Stan Lee has said since the late 70's that there were a few gay characters in his books, but he was never allowed to "out" them.

Thank goodness. I love Stan to death, but if he wrote his gay characters as whiny as he wrote everyone else, it would just be painful.

"Matt Murdock is so handsome, so intelligent, but I can't ever tell him how I feel...he could never accept the love of...a MAN."

04:38 / 13.12.02

I forgot about one of my favourite parts.

From the first draft of the transcript.

CARLSON: OK, well let me hit you with another panel. And this panel, when I read it, I thought of my own son, and what he would make of this.

This is the Rawhide Kid being asked about Wild Bill Hickok. And the Rawhide Kid said, quote, "He's a very nice man. Big, I mean bigger than life."

You get the joke, maybe 8-year-olds would get the joke. But that's vulgar. Should that be in a comic book?

LEE: You want to know something? I saw that yesterday. And I called the editor, and I think that ought to be expunged. And he agreed with me. And I don't think it will be appear in the finished book.

This and the other panel quoted were both kind of dumb. But vulgar? Compared to the other Max titles? I don't think so.

13:42 / 13.12.02

Oh, my...

CARLSON: OK, I'm sorry. We are completely out of time. Mr. Lee, yes or no, Robin gay or not?

LEE: You'll have to ask somebody at D.C. I have too many friends there to answer that question.

CARLSON: OK. I think we can infer the answer.

Comedy gold.

15:18 / 29.07.03

From queer comic blog In Sequence, a blog called Heroes and Villains, the thinking pervert's guide to kink (cops, caped crusaders, & other male fantasies). Includes quite a bit on queer and identity theory, masks, and Batman.

"Unmasking, or the threat of unmasking, is one of my favorite bat-fantasies. The removal of the disguise is the money shot for me, as it were."

19:20 / 01.08.03

Hmm intresting , but why include demons and amorphic non human beings in a list regarding sexuality ?? (Mephisto and Desire uuh ??)

(Or you think maybe some ones trying to make a point some where ?)

Going back to the point of a shapeshifter , surely they decide what to be , thus rather mooting the how issue of any form of gender and definable sexuality except by their own desires ?

11:05 / 02.08.03

The mexican male gay witch was called Extrano ('strange') and was in the DC comic book series Millennium and then The New Guardians.

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