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Passing

 
 
Ganesh
19:35 / 10.04.02
Having become more involved with gender dysphoria and particularly transgender issues of late, I've been thinking again about the phenomenon of 'passing' - basically, consciously contriving to appear ('convincingly') to other people as that which one is not (eg. a transgender woman attempting to present herself as a biological/'born' woman). As a bro-o-oad generalisation, I'd say this is more important to many transsexuals than having actual physical relationships with other individuals; they're less concerned with obtaining a fully-functioning penis/vagina, for example, than with having genitals that look (and feel) 'correct enough' to pass muster in social situations (swimming pool, changing rooms, etc.). Which made me wonder if a transsexual individual's most significant relationship was his/her relationship with society.

As I say, this is a broad - and quite possibly inexperienced - generalisation, so feel free to object.

I started wondering about passing, in general, as a reflection of one's relationship with one's environment - possibly a slightly sexualised/eroticised relationship? For example, while I rarely actively try to pass as a heterosexual male, a small part of me is actually quite pleased when someone makes this mistake; I'm not sure whether this is indicative of some unconscious ambivalence with identifying completely as 'gay' or whether it's just nice to feel one has 'hidden depths', can be a 'chameleon' when it suits. Slightly more esoterically, (and I touched on this once in a thread entitled 'Frauds'), my own raving fetishisation of leather occasionally leads to my leaving the house togged up in motorcycle leathers hoping (at least in part) that others will perceive me to be the 'authentic article' (I've even considered buying a helmet to wander around with but that seems slightly excessive even for me...). I live in fear of someone engaging me in chatty bike-talk and exposing my fraudulence...

Any thoughts on this? Does anyone else try, deliberately, to pass as something they're not? I guess I'm thinking more of intentional deception for obscure/personalised reasons rather than simply a fondness for bullshitting or a tendency to feel 'out of place'.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:42 / 10.04.02
Not to avoid the question or anything, but I think it's pretty disturbing that a doctor dealing with trans clients would openly write that when transsexuals 'pass', they pass as something they're not - the implication being that trans women aren't real women, trans men not real men. As if the mark of a real man or woman was to [i]un[/i]consciously contrive to appear convincingly as their gender.
 
 
SMS
01:34 / 11.04.02
Any thoughts on this? Does anyone else try, deliberately, to pass as something they're not? I guess I'm thinking more of intentional deception for obscure/personalised reasons rather than simply a fondness for bullshitting or a tendency to feel 'out of place'.

I've never tried to pass as a woman, but I do consciously lead people to believe things about me that aren't quite true, in a sense. These tend to be things like my beliefs or philosophies that I consider to be the core of "me."

But this it is also difficult for me to think of this as a deception. The reason I lie is precisely because I don't feel like the truth can be expressed so quickly, and it seems the lie coming from my mouth is likely to be understood as something much closer to the truth than the truth itself.

It would be easier to give concrete examples if I were passing as a woman than as a jumble of characteristics that has no name. So let me use my own experiences to speculate, and clarify.

One who passes as a member of the opposite sex wants more than simply to be treated as a member of the opposite sex, but also to be understood as one. A woman may identify so much with "men" that xe feels dressing as a woman less accurately portrays the core of hir self than dressing as a man. Dressing as a man is indeed a lie, but it is only a lie about the structure of the body. Dressing as a woman tells the truth about the body, but lies about the soul.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:47 / 11.04.02
'Something I'm not' -- nope, I never try to pass as that. Passing as a woman is passing a something I'm not, in a way. And I don't pass as a man, or at least very rarely. Yet.

Ganesh wrote:

'I'd say this is more important to many transsexuals than having actual physical relationships with other individuals; they're less concerned with obtaining a fully-functioning penis/vagina, for example, than with having genitals that look (and feel) 'correct enough' to pass muster in social situations (swimming pool, changing rooms, etc.). Which made me wonder if a transsexual individual's most significant relationship was his/her relationship with society.'

Okay, Ganesh, this is probably gonna sound narky. But it might be really useful if you stopped using the generalising category of 'a transsexual' entirely, both in yr thoughts about the subject and in your posts. It really does sound like a broad generalisation. As I've said before, trannies have hugely diverse, contradictory and different reasons for wanting to transition. Or wanting to pass.

I'd also take isue with the implicit assumption that one needs fully-functioning genitalia to have intimate sexual relationships. The lack of, or existence of, a 'fully-functioning' genital arrangement has hardly anything to do with whether or not trannies can fuck, or with how willing various people who fuck trannies are to engage in sexual practices with someone who doesn't have a 'normal-looking' cock or cunt. A doctor told me yesterday that about 80% of ftm's choose not to have bottom surgery, or at least 'defer' it (his words) -- and yet an ftm email list I'm on has a thread right now about tricking in gay sex clubs, passing tactics in that situation and so on. Lots of the people posting are already in long-term relationships and they're getting lots of cock-sucking on the side... Hello, look, intimate sexual relationships are important. Ria said this in a post a while back, and all I can do is repeat it: the internal and the social are both huge reasons for transitioing, as well as a huge range of other reasons. They are difficult to separate out and I don't even think it's terribly useful to try.

Passing is not just a transgender or transsexual phenomenon, obviously. Lots of people have written really interesting stuff about passing in terms of race, skin colour and ethnicity -- passing as white, for example, and the politics of that. Even in terms of gender, t might be useful to unhook ideas about passing from transsexuals altogether. That is, lots of people pass as something other than their born gender without transitioning, having surgery or taking hormones. Jack Halberstam talks about a category she calls 'transgender butch' -- which may involve passing as a man in public and private situations, but doesn't necessarily involve identifying as a 'man' in quite the same way that a transsexual man might. Passing is sometimes inportant for safety, for not getting hit, for fitting in somehow -- and passing is always different depending on the different contexts you find yourself in.
 
 
Ganesh
11:13 / 11.04.02
In my defence, I said I was generalising broadly, admitted my inexperience and deliebrately used the term "biological/'born'" - in an (obviously failed) attempt to avoid implications of 'real' vs 'not real'. I made the decision to use this particular phrasing because, of the thirty-odd gender dysphoric individuals I've seen, this is how they've discussed their experiences. Of these, twenty-eight or twenty-nine were at various stages in the pursuit of gender reassignment surgery because they had deep-seated beliefs that they were, psychologically, the opposite gender - hence my (perhaps over-convenient) use of the term 'transsexual'.

And God yeah, I'm well aware that genitalia does not = sexual relationships. Perhaps I've seen an atypical subgroup, then, in that the vast majority of transgender people attending the out-patient facility where I did my placement were doing so with the eventual aim of reassignment surgery, so naturally I explored their motivations - which in turn prompted this thread.

Obviously I know the phenomenon of 'passing' is not unique to this particular group; I didn't intend to suggest this was so. I was (possibly naively) looking for similar experiences of my own - and of others. I find the whole issue of 'passing' an interesting one and wished to explore it in a more general sense.

Apologies for being "disturbing"...
 
 
Jackie Susann
11:44 / 11.04.02
Don't apologise; on you, it's kind of sexy.

Part of the point I was trying to make is that thinking about 'passing' might be more productive/interesting if it wasn't simply passing as something you're not. St Matthew might not have passed as a woman, but he presumably passes as a man pretty regularly. I don't think it's helpful to assume there's a qualitative difference between the ways he does this, and the ways a transsexual man might - which isn't to say there aren't specific differences.
 
 
Jackie Susann
11:46 / 11.04.02
Uh, that post would probably have worked better if it had followed the line "Apologies for being 'disturbing'...', like it was supposed to.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:57 / 11.04.02
Scattered thoughts -

Can "passing" be thought of as analogous to learning another language? I say this because in my admittedly limited experience of the subject there seems to be an initial phase wherein the "passee" overemphasizes certain secondary characteristics of the stereotypical "male" or "female", much like the way a beginner at a new language would overpronounce hir accent or stick to sentence formations ze is familiar with.

Is gender structured like a language? And if so, are some people repositories of "overdetermined" gender, "displaced" gender, etc.
 
 
BioDynamo
14:09 / 11.04.02

I haven't cross-dressed in a long, long (oh sooo long..) time. Haven't had the time, really. 'Cause when I do, I want to pass. Feel the need to pass. Feel the need to experience a thrill of being, socially, female.

That pretty much means I never speak to anyone while doing it. Or did, since I don't anymore. But I should, and want to. Damn politics, stealing my life...

I feel a need to, when I cross-dress, spend time and money on it. Right now I have neither. So I don't.

Cross-dressing and failing to pass would feel horrible. Getting second glances is OK, but someone commenting, making rude remarks or in any way clearly showing that I wasn't passing would devastate me.

Shit, I was so much stronger on this two years ago while living in Amsterdam, far away from my history and the people who know me, I went out partying in drag and everything.. now, nothing.

Ah well, I can still wear a kilt-like skirt every now and then, without even trying to pass. But it's not the same.

Augh. My life is fine, on all counts, apart from this one area, but now, thinking of it makes me feel all in need of... huggles.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:38 / 11.04.02
ive never cross dressed before, but passing can mean other things, am i correct?

I'va had times where i was not happy with myself and would play at being someone else, IE cool club kid---druggy raver---and more recently uber hacker

would things like that count, because there are times when i would fail to pass, not knowing the name of a band thats popular in "the scene" or some other bit of detail
pretty much a downer when you get caught, i cant imagine if i were faking something big, like gender, and got busted
 
 
passer
15:05 / 11.04.02
I look at passing as dissonance between your view of self and how you feel the world perceives you. Frequently involving the pursuit of some perceived benefit from the assumed identity rather than "naturally" perceived one. I'm not sure that it's always or even mostly an eroticized or even sexualized relationship, but I think that it's context sensitive. There are examples where passing is eroticized but I think that happens when the coding is itself eroticized, for instance, when you're dealing with gender, sexuality, and fetishes. However, to touch on a topic someone mentioned earlier, there are other politics to passing: racial, socio-economic to name the two that spring readily to my biased mind.

I can't say that I've intentionally set out to pass as anything at one time, but I have been taken for something other than I am by conventional definitions. If I did not correct the assumption, is that passing? I suppose I ask this because of your example of someone assuming that you are heterosexual, Ganesh. I guess my problem with this is that I place the blame on the person making the assumption, rather than assuming you were trying to pass. But I have several issues with passing as a phenomenon. On one hand, I think anything that is susceptible to "passing" must be some sort of construct. If is it a construct and one that makes one unhappy, I encourage people to fuck with it to their heart's content. On the other hand, I'm of mixed feeling on how so fully adopting the coding so as to pass, positively adapts the coding rather than reinforcing it and in some way continuing your own suffering.
 
 
Ganesh
16:46 / 11.04.02
Crunchy: yeah, basically, I agree that it's of more interest to open the subject out, explore what the concept of 'passing' means to different people. The last time I started a thread along these lines (with a more negative slant - 'Frauds') people got 'fuzzy' quite early on (interpreting the question to mean 'passing' as confident, say, when one didn't feel confident) - which is in no way wrong but I sort of wanted to get a little more clear-cut (if such a thing is possible) than that.

The biological/transgender example was used because I'd recently attended a male-to-female support group session and these were the issues voiced and terminology used (sample: "I'll never be a biological woman - I know that - but that's my ideal and I want to get as close to that as possible"). As I say, this may well be an atypical subgroup of gender dysphoric individuals.

But yes, heterosexual men 'performing masculinity' would certainly fall within the remit of what I wanted to discuss.

Passer: yeah, it'd certainly be wrong to assume that the erotic/sexual necessarily played a role in the motivation of transsexual people (more akin to fetishistic transvestism?); I guess I was trying to broaden the concept of 'passing' into the realms of fetishism in order to 'explain' my own experiences.

Anecdote time:

Wandering around Central London the other evening in full bike leathers (mmm...), I hopped on the Tube to go home and was promptly accosted by a friendly but persistent Irish drunk who began with "crashed your bike, have you, mate?", ignored my non-committal ("something like that") replies and quickly got to the nub of the matter - "'cause you've got, like all the gear, yeah?" I'd love to say I stared him in the eye and said "no, I just get turned on by wearing the gear" but IRL I blushed, muttered "it's a friend's bike" ("you got all the leathers just to ride pillion? Fair play to you, mate!") and fled at the next stop.

Tch. Passing...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
08:36 / 16.04.02
I'm belatedly returning to this thread 'cause I wanted to respond to things in a big and broad way, not just get all narky and then piss off. I've had work coming out of my ears and less Net access lately.

"And God yeah, I'm well aware that genitalia does not = sexual relationships. Perhaps I've seen an atypical subgroup, then, in that the vast majority of transgender people attending the clinic at which I work are doing so with the eventual aim of reassignment surgery, so naturally I've explored their motivations - which in turn prompted this thread."

I don't necessarily think you've seen an atypical subgroup; but even in the relationships you have with the people you're seeing, I'm not quite sure how much complexity about motivations might be lost. Not because of you, personally, but because of the formalisation of the various reasonings and rationales that people give for wanting to transition to medical experts. Which isn't much to do with passing, or it has less bearing on passing, I guess.

Passing is obviously a big issue in terms of 'how one transitions', especially because of the Harry Benjamin guide about living in one's chosen gender for two years or three months or whatever it is, before surgery. Until very recently, access to hormones and surgery has only been possible if one were prepared to 'pass' (or at least attempt to pass) for a period of time, right? This explains a lot to me; it explains why passing has such significance to trannies seeking medical and psychiatric help. Maybe. This is why I'm so assertive about trannies having diverse nd different needs/desires/motivations -- the medical discourses of trannsexuality really need to take that on. because it might also reduce the feedback loop of trannies telling doctors and medical experts what they want to hear. Anyhow, that's a sideline...

I'm quite interested in todd's likening of passing to learning another language -- overdeterminations, weird dialects and so forth... There is a glut of information about 'passing tips' out there on the Net, for men and women alike.
 
 
aussieintn
11:31 / 16.04.02
Ganesh: I suggest you get a bike. Have you ridden? You might get hooked on the thrill (I mean "hooked" in a good way), and you'll increase your opportunity to wear leather without the social questions.

Then you'll understand the dilemma many bikers face: "sex or ride the bike... hmmm... think I'll ride... want to pillion, honey?"

Haha... sorry, back to the topic...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:28 / 16.04.02
I liked the leatherboy anecdote, Ganesh.

I also get asked a fair amount, sometimes in sorta professional situations, how long I've been riding a bike. I always reply that I don't have a bike, I just like wearing leather. Its only afterwards that I think I've come across a leather perv (ahem). Which would be fine except that I'm not, really. Well, not really really.

Its precisely because I don't have a strong leather fetish that passing isn't important to me in that situation. On the other hand, I do get wound up by the whole raft of assumptions that people tend to make of large, hairy heterosexual blokes. So much so that I am sometimes deliberately non specific about my sexuality. This might offend people here who have to deal with real homophobia, but a bit of me is quite pleased when people ask me if I am gay. This isn't to say I pass at all.
 
 
Ganesh
16:08 / 16.04.02
Mister Disco: as far as I know, the Real Life Experience remains a general requirement for obtaining gender reassignment surgery on the NHS - and the prescription of hormones is usually also contingent upon at least some degree of commitment to 'living in role'. Arguably, however, living in role is not the same as passing - at least, not as I was attempting to discuss it. Living in role entails the assumption of a name, persona and often appearance consistent with the gender with which one identifies; it's more about one's interactions with one's immediate environment and wider society - whereas 'passing' implies actually trying to go unnoticed.

That's a clumsy way of expressing it, and I'm aware of the myriad pitfalls around the idea of living in role...

You make a good point about role confusion within the psychiatrist: can one provide psychological support while also fulfilling a 'gatekeeper' function with regard to hormones/surgery?
 
 
grant
17:45 / 17.04.02
Are you saying "living in role" is for close relations and "passing" is for everyone else?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:05 / 17.04.02
Ignore this if it's so obvious that it's why no one's mentioned it yet..

But, how much of 'passing' is psychological/sociological camoflauge in what the 'passer' considers physically or emotionally dangerous situations?

For example, Ganesh's 'biker' anecdote. How much of that was an attempt to camoflauge yourself against a potential 'predator'?
 
 
Ganesh
10:09 / 19.04.02
Grant: no, I guess I'm saying living in role is about being accepted as the gender of your choice whereas passing is about being 'mistaken' for the (biological) gender of your choice.

(And yeah, I'm aware that 'mistaken' - with its implications of right and wrongness - isn't quite the right word there. I'm hungover and fuzzy-headed and my brain isn't working properly this morning...)
 
  
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