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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

BOOK PERSONALS: Ulysses

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10:31 / 12.04.02

Bloomsday is June 16th, the first day he "walked out" with Nora Barnacle(?) who he would marry. As a tribute all the action in Ulysses happens on this day. It also celebrates Joyce, Ulysses, and Dublin, the locale of the story.

I too think separate threads would work the best. Its a bit jarring when you're reading a message about say chapter 7 and the next message is talking about chapter 2. It wouldn't really clutter the forum all that much.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:57 / 12.04.02

Separate threads sound better, but with that many chapters, won't there be bandwidth issues (he said as if he understood what "bandwidth" actually was).
Trijhaos- according to RAW, it's been revealed that it wasn't the first date... it was the first hand-job.
Ahhh... you've got me now. I've dug out my copy in readiness, and am champing at the bit.
Also like the "syllabus" idea, reading speeds covering such a multitude of sins...

The Return Of Rothkoid

11:29 / 12.04.02

I didn't find that reading Portrait helped my understanding of Ulysses. It'd add another flavour to the text, but it's not essential. And hell. Ulysses is better, anyway - I fucking hated Portrait.

Additionally - the schemata was something Joyce didn't initially release, but it is the most helpful tool you can have while reading the novel, I find. Notes, you can find elsewhere, but the schemata will help you in the "what the fuck" moments where he changes style radically.

Most modern editions should have it published somewhere in it - my advice is to photocopy it and use it as your bookmark. I may even take my own advice. Heh.

As for bandwidth; there's actually a lot less code back-and-forthing with the new pages - I don't think it'll be like this'll bring Barbelith to its knees. It ain't a barbelovin' marathon, after all...

Yet.

12:42 / 12.04.02

There's no reason IMO not to have separate threads if that's what people want to do... the forum isn't huge anyway, and if necessary we can always clear out some of the defunct threads (I last did this about three months ago, I think).

Goodness Gracious Meme

16:25 / 12.04.02

Hmm. I'd say that Portrait *is* helpful, not at all vital by any means, but helpful in pointing out the kind of stylistic/technical/literary devices that Joyce develops in Ulysses, in showing his concerns, first attempts in this area. (Joyce writes in what he considers to be the voice of a character of the age of Stephen, ie the beginnign, dealing with S.D as a baby is in baby talk. Which is very helpful to know when you're faced with a load of 'ickle moo cow'...

And it's v. short so as a taster to see if you fancy tackling Ulysses at all.

18:38 / 12.04.02

how about in our first thread when we start the discussion of the first few chapter, those of us who've read portrait can briefly summarize and discuss its relevance for the benefit of those who haven't. it's really just a stylized autobiography of joyce's first 20 odd years, suffering under miserable catholic sermons and finding his way to prostitutes at the age of 13; a lot of emotional ups an downs as he tries to "fly" intellectually and keeps crashing back down to the physical earthy realm that makes up so much of his interests, then it end with him decided to leave Dublin so that he can "forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscious of my race" -- ie, write ullysseus.

i'm a bit with rothkoid on the "fuck portrait" vibe. it has some incredible language, but its nothing compared to the big U.

kit-kat, reading the notes, at least the schemata, as other people have said, isn't like relying on later day academic interpretations to color your experience, it's a part of the work itself that joyce published seperately. part of the amazing thing about ulysses is it's NON self-contained nature. on the one hand, it's the universe in a "notshall" but on the other hand you are constantly forced to be picking up other scraps and using them to cobble together your understanding... it's part of the game.

when he makes reference to specific geographical and sociological facts about dublin 1904, he expects you other know what he means or have the means to find out.

21:36 / 12.04.02

Wow, this is all great.

So I think we're agreed... Myst will divide up the chapters into a six-and-a-little week syllabus, and we will start separate threads for each week or section. What do you all think about this: either Rothkoid or I'll start off the first thread, and it might be fun after that to pass the ball to other people to start the next threads... I think that might put a little more spin on the discussion with different people setting up the play?

22:37 / 12.04.02

Sounds cool. But, what if the proverbial ball gets handed off to you and you have no idea where to start?

Has there been anymore development on reading sections out loud?

06:29 / 13.04.02

I didn't find that reading Portrait helped my understanding of Ulysses. It'd add another flavour to the text, but it's not essential.

A few months after I read portrait I picked up Ulysses. My first thought was "cool! Dedalus is in this one too!" I think Portait can be used as almost a sequel (or prequel) to learn more about Stephen Dedalus if you want before/after reading Ulysses.

07:41 / 13.04.02

ok here's my first pass at a suggested schedule, using all 7 weeks to read. let's see where this gets us...

week one: chapters 1, 2 ,3
this chunk is about 40 pages, and a complete section. It's a good bit for us to rev up on. And if anyone finds it easy enough, it would be a good time to adjust our schedule and tackle another chapter or two, since we'll probably fall behind later.

week two: chapters 4,5,6,7
This chunk is about 80 pages, it'll be at least twice as difficult as the first week. chapter 7 (Aeolus) is quite fun, it's the first chapter with a dramatically different narrative style.

week three: chapters 8, 9,10
This'll be the toughest run yet; approx 85-90 pages, and chapter 10 (Wandering Rocks) is very difficult, linguistically representing a "labyrinth"

week four: chapters 11+12
we'll ease up a bit here; chapter 11 (Sirens) is immensely enjoyable from shear language, and we should both enjoy it an have a chance to catch up if anyone's fallen behind.

week five: chapter 13,14

week six: chapter 15+16.
Now then. chapter 15 is 150 pages and insane, hallucinatory, mystical, hilarious, bizarre. 16 is the dullest part of the book, i swear he is daring you to skip it. be warned! This will be by far the largest page count and some of the most treacherous going. luckily, its towards the end of our time, so we can either read ahead in advance or push the schedule back, depending on how we're all feeling.

week seven: 17+18
these are the two most triumphant sections of the book; 17 is written as a question and answer set of catechisms which resolve the entire story around the meeting of leo and stephen. 18 is the epilogue to the book, the female monologue. both should have their own weeks! but we're out of time...

i think the most important thing is that we not lose people who are interested, so let's be sure to test the waters and see how everyone is doing as we go.

18:16 / 13.04.02

Excellent, Myst.

bows

i think the most important thing is that we not lose people who are interested, so let's be sure to test the waters and see how everyone is doing as we go.

Agreed. With the syllabus in our hand, we can slow down and still know where we are headed--a welcome guide, not a taskmaster.

what if the proverbial ball gets handed off to you and you have no idea where to start?

I was imagining that people would be shouting and waving for the ball ("over here!" "over here!")... is that delusional? Well, I've had opposite experiences: sometimes getting put on the spot is perfectly inspiring, othertimes it's the perfect block. I'd say if you're blocked, then just pass & we'll be all right.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:32 / 15.04.02

Ah - just a quick thought.

Was flicking through alternate publications of the novel on the weekend (in order to decide which to buy) and discovered that like most versions available now, the Penguin edition(s) (that most people seem to have hanging around) are taken from a version of the text reset by The Bodley Head in 1960. Which is good, because it's one of the most "correct" versions there is. Unfortunately, I also looked at the new OUP edition, which, while it's got better notes (as far as flicking could reveal), is only a reprint of the first, 1922 version. Which means that there's some stuff missing! I don't know exactly how much of a chunk isn't there, but the book was pretty extensively revised/corrected by Joyce, and I vaguely recall some extra narrative being whacked in - so in other words, it could cause some confusion to people if they're using it, solely.

I'm going to try to link online versions (which are around, in proper HTML and are complete, AFAIK) for references, I think, just 'cos it might help out varying versions. But I do think it'll be less of a concern if we all are checking out the same rough version. So, in short, avoid the "Reader's Edition" because it is wank, and go for something that's based on the Bodley Head version. I know that the Vintage, Everyman and Penguin editions all are, and I'm pretty sure that they're the ones that're going to be most visible.

Am I making any sense here?

10:01 / 15.04.02

Of course, you're making sense. It all seems pretty simple to me. You're basically saying get a copy that is based on the text that was corrected and reset in 1961, right?

13:41 / 15.04.02

Hey!

What's the big idea with all this Portrait bashing?! I love Portrait beyond words. Though not as grand in conception, I think it represents on its own terms a greater achievement than the later work. And what's this business about it being "just a stylized autobiography"? Style is the whole point. The great majority of Joyce's work is a biography of himself/other people/places based on the experience of himself and others and newspaper stories. His genius was not in the invention of characters or plot but in the style in which he rendered them, such that the meaning is conveyed so directly and strongly. The beauty of Ulysses for me is that you can charge right in with no plan and even when you're not sure exactly what is going on, the tone is controlled so well that your emotions are directed to the significance of that event or character. In his short stories in Dubliners, very little happens but the tone is so perfect that those simple stories are resonant with emotion.

I have rarely found the knife edge tone of Portrait anywhere else. I love so much about Stephen but he is also a complete bastard. "To forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race" is so heartfelt and so pretentious. Love it.

You certainly don't need to read it before Ulysses, though some of the irony in what is said by/about him would be missed. And you should read it because it is so damn good.

The Return Of Rothkoid

13:55 / 15.04.02

I was wondering what it'd take to drag Loomis out into the light. Heh. I still say that Portrait is a festering sack compared to Ulysses, but then, I would.

Trijhaos: you betcha.

06:28 / 17.04.02

so... are we reading? should we get a thread going or use this thread -- as we make our way through the first chapters?

Matthew Fluxington

11:37 / 17.04.02

Mmm. I think I might go in on this - I've never read any Joyce, and this seems like a good place to start. And if I'm going to have people hold my hand through it, I figure you are all a good group...

Chalk me in for a tentative reservation.

12:34 / 17.04.02

"To forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race" is so heartfelt and so pretentious.

I believe... not completely owning up to it, mind... I believe when I was in my young twenties, I once signed off a letter to my sister with "I go to encounter for the millionth time," etc..... The first line of her letter back to me was, "How pretentious of you."

It was actually because of Portrait that I wanted to try Ulys, long ago. Probably after I read U now, I will go back and read P again.

waves hi at Flux

12:39 / 17.04.02

so... are we reading? should we get a thread going or use this thread -- as we make our way through the first chapters?

Yeeek, I am not reading yet! I was thinking that we would start the threads every Wednesday, starting with May 1... but are people rarin' to go? If I start reading now, I can have the first chapters read by next Wednesday, which is April 24th & we can start the first thread then? How is everyone else feeling?

12:49 / 17.04.02

Well, I've sneakily started but that's because I'm worried I'll fall behind - or want to go back and reread things once people start talking about them.

gozer the destructor

13:14 / 17.04.02

Yeah i'm with persephone, didn't think that anyone had started reading yet, if that's the case then it's no problem, have you started reading?

Matthew Fluxington

13:40 / 17.04.02

I have to actually acquire a copy of the book itself. I'll stop by a couple used book stores later on today or tomorrow...

16:28 / 17.04.02

I've already started reading, but that's because along about May 1 I will be preparing for exams so won't really have time for extracurricular reading.

Damn this book is confusing.

19:28 / 17.04.02

i've started already... and i wasn't even planning on fully rereading, just looking at interesting parts for discussion... but like the mafia, it keeps pulling me back in/

i want to reiterate that people really ought to buy, check from a library, or borrow from a friend the annotations book; that way we can avoid having our discussions be about this pedantic and readily available information and can focuss instead on good old creative barbelith style interpretation and eureka. if we don't have access to these kind of notes, i fear that the discussion will be overrun with "what does agenbite of inwit mean" or "why does mulligan keep saying kip?" or "Why does he think of cranley's arm?" when that stuff has been covered and we have a larger opportunity to discuss how the book becomes self-conscious, how it relates to mystical texts, what is it's narrative use of gender, etc, or anything else we might find interesting.

i'm not saying there's any kind of discussion we ought to avoid, it's just that when you see the amount of notes available, i'm guessing you to will want to avoid reproducing them in our threads.

19:57 / 17.04.02

I'd love to get that book, but I don't quite have 30 dollars to spare, my library doesn't have it, and I don't know anybody around here who does, so it looks like I'm just going to have to use the James Joyce portal, since it does a fair job of explaining some of the things you mentioned.

23:31 / 18.04.02

I think I'm going to have to stick with my original plan: start reading next week and be ready to post on chapters 1-3 on May 1. I hope that's okay.

00:37 / 19.04.02

from mystery: "'m not saying there's any kind of discussion we ought to avoid, it's just that when you see the amount of notes available, i'm guessing you to will want to avoid reproducing them in our threads."

you know, when i see "the amount of notes available," both on the questions you call 'pedantic' and on any other topic in the huge industry that is joyce crit, which puts out enough paper every year to reach the moon, it makes me want to lay down and die. i think ulysses can be read and enjoyed without that kind of guide, and maybe should be the first time - so your impressions aren't colored by someone else's. and a question like "why does stephen mention cranly's arm (or smile or eleven or whatever)" is unsophisticated, but interesting, and important. 'cause it can point to stephen's obsession with the "betrayer" and his weird relations to others in general and to discussion of all the book's intertextualities. but i don't know what i'm talking about, and i probably won't join in the discussion. so nevermind.

The Return Of Rothkoid

13:44 / 21.04.02

Copy bought, and reading set to commence soon. Roll on, May 1st!

(Coincidentally; came across a copy of Finnegans Wake yesterday for next-to-nothing, so I now have the night to Ulysses' day - should my enthusiasm stretch that far.)

The Sinister Haiku Bureau

18:25 / 21.04.02

Count me in. I'll be reading the online edition though, just because I'm too cheap and lazy to buy a paper copy. Can't wait.

20:45 / 23.04.02

Hi I am new to Barbelith and would like to join in reading Ulysses
Here is a website that has the story in pictures!

http://www.bway.net/~hunger/ulysses.html

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:49 / 28.04.02

1st three chapters by Mayday sounds cool to me... and I'm about to go to bed with a copy right now. (That's "go to bed with" in the READING sense... rather than the Biblical.)

01:36 / 30.03.04

By far the best way to read Ulysses is in a group. The James Joyce Society of Denver was established in the early 1990's for monthly readings. We are now in our fifth or sixth time through. Every time we find new gems.

We have major plans for Bloomsday 2004. Hizzoner will proclaim the day as "The Official Bloomsday". On Saturday we will rent a bus, (so we can imbibe without driving), and go from location to location most closely resembling various locales from the book. We are trying to enlist some local theatre groups for readings of "Ulysses in Nighttown" (based on the Circe chapter, and Penelope.

In the past we have celebrated by similar excursions or marathon readings of Ulysses.

The group has expanded over the years. We began reading Ulysses the first Tuesday of the month. Next was Finnegans Wake on the third Tuesday. The Oddyssey on the second and an "Oddities" on the final Tuesday.

All are invited to join, (bad word - there is no formal membership), just show up and enjoy! Each month's host provides provisions, both snacks, (Plumtree's Potted Meats on occasion), and various beverages, (Guinness is Good for You!)

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