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Lesbian couple choose to have a deaf child

 
  

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The Planet of Sound
16:08 / 08.04.02
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_562170.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

Understandable in terms of deafness as cultural identity, or dubious eugenics?
 
 
gozer the destructor
16:30 / 08.04.02
Hmmm...not sure how to react to that.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:38 / 08.04.02
I do, it seems incredibly stupid and as yet cannot find one redeeming quality in this story.

It should be noted that I value hearing quite a lot and my comments are biased as such.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:04 / 08.04.02
It seems a possibly logical extrapolation of the 'being disabled doesn't make us less human' but I see it as ultimately stupid, let's not forget that being deaf means NOT HAVING one of the senses. And I think that trying to pretend that being deaf is the same as being Asian, or indeed the same as being a lesbian plays only in to the hands of those that want to see people as different and therefore less worthy of respect.
 
 
Fist Fun
17:28 / 08.04.02
It makes an interesting juxtaposition to the designer baby idea. Part of me likes the idea of rejecting deafness as a disability instead regarding it as an alternative.
 
 
Sleeperservice
18:24 / 08.04.02
I've heard some good things about the deaf community over the years, although I have very little direct experience of it I must admit. It does seem strange to me but then I'm a music junkie so I'd find it really hard to adapt I think. Both parents are deaf however, so I think in the end the choice is theirs and overall I'm fairly supportive. It'd be a whole different ball game if the parents weren't deaf.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:29 / 08.04.02
I can't see how you could be in favour of optionally impairing a child. Why should it be good for them to make that decision?

The child will be at a constant disadvantage.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:48 / 08.04.02
This story did make me think. On the one hand, a deaf person's life is just as valuable as anyone else's, etc, on the other hand, it's undeniably a disadvantage being deaf and to actively seek it out for someone else who doesn't exist yet seems perverse.

When it comes down to it, I suppose it's their choice as to who they pick as a donor - it's like having a child with someone who is tall, or blond, or whatever characteristic you find attractive - but, well, to do it purely on that basis seems to be taking a political viewpoint too far.
 
 
Vadrice
18:51 / 08.04.02
disadvantage from a hearing perspective, surely, but who is to say whether it is adventagous from a non hearing perspective?

Since the parents are deaf, it would follow that they wish to raise the child in a context they understand- one that is not in a hearing world, and while obviously not adventagous in said hearing world, is not to say that it is entirely a disadvantage.

I have done a substantial ammount of personal study into the field of sensory depravation, and though I am personally more interested in blindness, removing one mode of perception of sensation can have profound and (as I consider) wonderful effects on the development and powerful function of the mind. And while, indeed, the vast majority of the world functions on terms of all of the five senses, There are indeed pockets where it is entirely a disadvantage to (in this case) be able to hear.

I spent a great deal of time at the Maryland school for the deaf when I was younger, because I was fascinated by the thought of a place where actually being able to hear and be raised as such put one at not only a social disadvantage, but an entirely functional one as well. Those who can hear (myself included) will never be anything but a foreginer to the deaf world- as the lack of sound is no imparement there, it is instead a continuity- a culture- an understanding.

And hell. Deaf people invented the huddle. I mean, COME ON! The HUDDLE!
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
19:00 / 08.04.02
When anyone has a child there is a risk of physical or mental disability in the child. This is one of the reasons that banks exclude those that have a disability.

What now is the child is blind at birth? Have this couple planned for such an eventuality?

Taking a risk is one thing, compounding is another and in this case a downright irresponsible thing.
 
 
Vadrice
19:46 / 08.04.02
One could argue that having any sort of child these days is a matter of compounding- compounding to the fact (fact? who told me this? were they full of shit?) that there are more people alive right now on this earth than there are that have died in all of human history. If you want to say having a kid (any kid) is downright irresponsable, I'm behind you.

However, if you want to say that wanting (nigh, forcing) your own child to be born deaf is irresponsible, I'm not- not until you, as a hearing person, try to raise a deaf child- the closest you could come to being deaf and raising a hearing child. It's a matter of connection between parent and child- not of "damaging" the child, or "compounding" the child's "disabilities."
 
 
alas
21:03 / 08.04.02
I also don't know completely what to think, here, but it certainly gives me the willies to hear someone so blithely say, "congenital deafness is precisely the sort of condition that gets a would-be donor eliminated."

Eliminated. Now, I realize they mean "eliminated from the pool of donated genes" but even in trying to frame that implicit statement I almost typed "eliminated from the gene pool." To me there is something "final-solutiony" about birth technologies that gives me a great big pause. Deaf people have a culture, a community based on deafness, as I understand it, moreso than blind people, for instance. So the part of me that most sympathises here, says, "these folks value their community and want their child to be a real part of that community."

Here's a writer I value, Nancy Mairs, who has MS and now cannot walk at all, who discuses her discomfort with the way euthanasia and abortion discussions often get framed:

" . . . My purpose in raising questions about abortion and euthansia is not to condemn these procedures, which I believe ought to be freely available, in strict privacy, to any fully informed person who elects them. In fact, I would educate doctors more, and regulate them less, so that they and their patients could explore options, reach decisions, and take action without intrusion. My concern is that these issues be confronted in such a way as to create a social climate in which people with a disability perceive life to be an honorable choice. [Right now, she argues, there's a strong, implicit, but unavoidable message that if abortion is an option for fetuses diagnosed with disease, and death is an "option" for disabled people, the "right" option is to take it. So, to not take that option goes against social norms.] And that means sending a message that disabled people are valued and valuable, precious even, by investing financially and emotionally in institutions and practices that help them out.
Everybody, well or ill, disabled or not, imagines a boundary of suffering and loss beyond which, she is certain, life will no longer be worth living. I know that I do. I also know that my line, far from being scored in stone, has inched across the sands of my life: at various times, I could not possibly do without long walks on the beach or rambles through the woods; use a cane, a brace, a wheel chair; stop teaching; give up driving; let someone else put on and take off my underwear. One at a time, with the encouragement of others, I have taken each of these (highly figurative) steps. Now I believe my limit to lie at George's [her husband's--the one who takes off and puts on her knickers for her] death, but I'm prepared to let it move if it will. When I reach the wall, I think I'll know."

She goes on to say she can't condemn (U.S.) women with MS who sought out Dr. Kervorkian for help dying. But, "If a woman, upon learning that her fetus has spina bifida, may choose abortion, then she ought also to feel free to decide, without apology, to bear and rear the child, certain that she will have the same access to medical care and educational programs that a nondisabled child enjoys." Education designed for her/his needs. Then Mairs reminds us "Alexander Pope and Toulouse-Lautrec were hunchbacks, Milton went blind; Beethoven, deaf, and so on, and so on. . . "

How can we judge that some kinds of lives shouldn't be lived? Deaf people will exist: if we say these women shouldn't have chosen deliberatly to give birth to a deaf child, aren't we implying that ideally, deaf people should not exist at all? Given that technology increasingly can tell us lots of things about unborn children, does that mean that women in the future will be encouraged, if not required, to abort any "imperfect" child? (Or face the consequences of a world that refuses to welcome that child?)

Here's what I think: the choice these women made is not likely to ever be repeated by non-disabled parents, or even many disabled persons. So I think it's more important for those of us who are not CURRENTLY disabled to work to make the world more welcoming to disabled bodies, one of which, in the future, may be our own.

[end sermon]

(sorry to have gotten a little preachy on y'all. alas.)
 
 
m. anthony bro
21:06 / 08.04.02
so, it's wrong to make a designer baby so you can use its tissue to save another baby's life. But. it's okay to make a designer baby so you can prove a point? Crap. I mean, sure, if the kid is deaf, the kid is deaf. But, this is weird. This is deliberately creating a disadvantaged life.
Man, a great time to be human this is, maybe they should join in.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:22 / 08.04.02
But what if they aren't proving a point? What if they decided that their being good parents was going to give their child a better start in life, and more chance of success in life subsequently, and that the best way for them to be sure they could be good parents was to have a deaf baby (in the same way that adoption agencies are chary of giving children to parents of differing race, because the number of cultural and social hurdles the child is assumed to need to cross is considered to be a barrier to its happiness)?

And is this debate being by any chance coloured by the fact that they are queer, and as such intrinsically doctrinaire and uppity? Would there have been such a problem if one of them had just conceived in a heterosexual relationship with their deaf chum, which would after all presumably also in all likelihood have led to a deaf child? Would that have been some kind of lunatic politically correct stance, or just two people in love wanting to create a child?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:03 / 08.04.02
It is kind of odd that the very first word here should relate to the parents' sexuality, but I'd like to think that it's not colouring any views here. I certainly don't see any evidence of that, Tann.

Both parents are deaf. If the parents had perfect hearing then I think I'd have a problem with the story, in that there'd always be the feeling that it was almost a political, or even a stylistic decision to have a deaf child, as if they were purely trying to prove a point.

But that's not the case.

The one thing that does worry me is the possibility that it'll fuck the kids up in the future, or at least ruin their relationship with their parents. Think about it. We're not in a situation where the've been told "if you decide to have kids, there's a good chance they'll have hearing difficulties," this is two people actively deciding that their children should be slightly disabled. It's difficult to express this without making it sound like I'm saying that the deaf experience is somehow worth less that of 'normal' (gah) people, but it's entirely possible that there's going to be a great deal of difficulty getting over the hurdle of telling the kids, or having them find out via other means, that this was a conscious decision, that there was theoretically no reason why they should be deaf and that fate had no hand in this.

Let's take it to an extreme. You're born physically deformed. Due to an accident of birth, the muscles in your legs are atrophied, useless, and as a result you suffer from restricted movement. Say your partner has a similar affliction. If you have children as a couple, with no outside help, the chances are that those children will also suffer with these problems. It's just a chance, though, not a certainty.

Now say that due to either a medical issue or one of sexuality, you can't actually have children without outside assistance. Effectively, you're in the same position as the couple in this report, except your disability affects your life in a far more detrimental manner han deafness. Would you then actively choose to 'damage' your children in the same way?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:11 / 08.04.02
*braces himself for incoming shitstorm*
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:49 / 09.04.02
If I found out my deaf parents chose to make me deaf I would hate them for it! It's selfish. Every good parent, EVERYWHERE, wants their child to be better and have a better life then their own... these people don't and they're shooting their child in the foot. I would be soooo pissed if I were that kid! Why not just make him blind and retarded while we're at it. The end.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:47 / 09.04.02
I think there are a couple of things in the way that this story have been written than give me cause for concern about the way that we're responding to it. For a start - the man who donated sperm has had deafness running in his family for years - if we're going to be savage and say that it's the parents responsibility to not put their child at an 'obvious' disadvantage then we should probably bear in mind that the man in question might be unable to have a hearing child. Should he therefore not have children - knowing that the infant would come into the world deaf? Clearly we can't ask that of him.

So doesn't the question come down to one of choice? That the parents decided that they would rather have a deaf child than a hearing one? Having determined that parental responsibility doesn't extent to deciding not to have a child at all rather than have one who is 'disabled' in some way, it is worth asking how easy it would be for two deaf people to bring up a hearing child successfully. Without the stimulous of conversation and audible conversation, it's entirely possible that the child would initialy only learn to communicate through sign language until quite late. And in the meantime, the child's experience of the world and problems could be profoundly difficult for two deaf people to understand and relate to - might it not be better parenting to decide to have a child that you will be equipped to bring up effectively and well, and the problems of which you might understand more effectively.

And of course finally there is the element of their desire to be lesbian parents - which to many people is an immediate demonstration of selfishness, pulling the child outside the bounds of convention due to the parents selfish desire for a child. I'm not saying that people would necessarily consciously be thinking in that way - but I think the article is designed to edge you towards that way of thinking.

I'm not sure, but I don't know that if forced to make a choice about the sexuality of my child that I might not vote gay... Is that the same?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:11 / 09.04.02
years ago i worked for what was then mencap - before that experience i would've thought the couple had a problem. now i don't - i understand why a hearing impaired couple might want a hearing impaired child. though i'd be interested in the views of other deaf people on this.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:34 / 09.04.02
this might provide another view:

here
 
 
Fist Fun
09:20 / 09.04.02
Quote from the guardian article:

I always thought that most deaf people would be disappointed at having a hearing child. Actually that is not true. Many deaf people would rather have a hearing baby - but such individuals are not confident of their identity as deaf people. They see hearing people as better. They have been made to feel that the hearing world is superior, which it isn't - it's just different.

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:41 / 09.04.02
Well, that's slightly different in that she and her husband didn't choose to have a deaf baby, althought the balance of probability would have been tilted in it's favour.
 
 
alas
13:46 / 09.04.02
thanks sfd for the article: I agree completely. Let me ask again: WHY is having "a disability" SO disabling in this culture that we readily equate choosing to give birth to (which can also mean, choosing NOT TO ABORT) a baby who is not "normal" with "shooting the baby in the foot"?

We are not a culture that in any way welcomes non-normative bodies. And yet all of us have a body that is just one truck accident away from being seriously disabled.
 
 
The Planet of Sound
13:59 / 09.04.02
Doesn't mean you force your new-born kid to play in the motorway, alas. There's another article in The Guardian today by Jeanette Winterson counterbalancing the views in the article SFD has posted. Too lazy to post it, though.
 
 
Tamayyurt
14:16 / 09.04.02
"which to many people is an immediate demonstration of selfishness, pulling the child outside the bounds of convention due to the parents selfish desire for a child."
Tom, I know you didn't mean that that's what I was implying, but just for the record that's not what I meant when I said they were being selfish.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:17 / 09.04.02
In this particular situation, as my be the same in others, they are choosing to impair the communicable capacity of the child. As a race we rely heavily on sound for communication and to optionally impair that seems nothing short of ridiculous.

Sure they may be able to communicate with the child better because it will be on the same level as them, but they are two out of literally millions people that the child will meet throughout it's lifetime. Of those people there will be the likelihood that it will meet a higher percentage of hearing impaired people because of it's situation but still it is unlikely that this would form a majority.

I think that if the child is capable of hearing then it will actually stand a good chance of being a very good communicator to both the hearing and the non-hearing.

Of all of the articles that I have read I get this impression that the parents are being selfish and possibly not getting the bigger picture here. A lot of the articles seem to have a lot of how they will relate to the child and how it will interact with the deaf community. There's no mention of how the child will be taught to interact with the rest of the world.

I'm probably wrong on this one and biased because of my love of experiencing other cultures from that which I was bought up in. However I'm yet to read any compelling arguments for me to support them.

Interesting article from the National Post.

National Post

It briefly touches on bioethical issues.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 09.04.02
Sure they may be able to communicate with the child better because it will be on the same level as them, but they are two out of literally millions people that the child will meet throughout it's lifetime. Of those people there will be the likelihood that it will meet a higher percentage of hearing impaired people because of it's situation but still it is unlikely that this would form a majority.

I'm still astonished that some parents selfishly breed in Cornwall, despite the knowledge that their children are going to be black.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:59 / 09.04.02
Well here is the other guardian article.
Quote from it:
How would either of the lesbians have felt if their own parents had said that heterosexuality was such a beautiful thing that they had to screen out any potential gay gene in their children, just to make sure they had a good life?

Any thoughts?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:16 / 09.04.02
Well, should we feel grateful they were broad-minded enough to have a MALE baby? Did they go all the way and do all they could to make sure their daughter is a lesbian?
 
 
alas
18:14 / 09.04.02
Winterson: The difference, of course, is that no child should be forced inside its parents' psychosis - whether they be from a hardline religious sect or Deaf Lesbians.

What awful prose. Yipes. The way "Deaf Lesbians" sounds like a bad parody of a rock group; how belittling. I'm beginning to think Jeanette Winterson is seriously suffering from internalized homphobia. (Her whole piece reminds me of a song they taught us in Sunday School, rewritten:"Oh be careful little dykes whom you fuck").

What bothers me is that there's such an outcry over this, but in the US, would-be parents have been, through egg harvesting and sperm banking, trying to up their children's IQs and "beauty" quotient for years with little or no stir. That kind of selection is much more widespread than the atypical selective conception that these two women chose to engage in, shows no sign of stopping, and is at least as "psychotic" in my opinion.

If you choose AGAINST deafness, and abort a baby specifically because you don't want to bring a deaf child into the world, that's ok, right? (Is it even "laudable"?) But at the same time deliberately choosing FOR deafness isn't ok...I guess have a problem with that logic, still. If we allow, perhaps even encourage, women to choose against raising a child with a disability, then it's not really a choice if other women can't deliberately choose _for_ the disability.

I just don't believe that giving birth to a deaf child by choice is the equivalent of forcing a child to play in the motorway, UNLESS we collectively decide that deaf children do not deserve to live in a world that is safe for them, that welcomes them. We can make their world less like a motorway if we choose to. Just as we can make the world more safe for people of color than it is. So I think the comparison to race that Haus makes is relevant. If we choose not to make it safer, and then spefically hold up the reproductive decisions of disabled persons for ridicule--in ways that we do not apply to non-disabled persons--then we aren't we very close to quietly supporting a kind of genocide?

The world should value diversity in bodies. Full stop. What I'm hearing here is normalizing discourse at its worst: we'll "suffer" disabled people to live, because--obviously--"we feel sorry for them," but for heaven's sake, we don't actually LOVE them for who they are, or for the gifts their disability brings to the world. My problem is that, in my experience, pity is not love; it's usually a barely disguised contempt.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
19:24 / 09.04.02
One of the first things I thought when I read this was, "How would it feel to be those children? To know that your parents had intentionally attempted (successfuly) to make you deaf?"

At first I thought I would be really angry. And surely when those children are older, they will likely deal with some anger towards their parents on this isssue.

But then I thought, "what a neat way to be deaf, actually!" Because those parents will repeatedly send the message to their children that deaf children are wanted and special. That deafness is a unique, special and loveable trait that they have.

Then there is the fact that those two children, apart from being deaf, are unique individuals, and given a different dna pattern, one which would conceivably prevent their deafness, they would not be the same unique individuals. Their deafness, part of their biological makeup, is inextricably tied to their being. To say that it's wrong to bring those two children in the world, knowing, though not being certain, that they will be deaf is wrong is essentially saying it's wrong to bring those two children in the world, period.
 
 
Tamayyurt
23:04 / 09.04.02
Yeah but will the kid care about all that when all hir's friends are buying CDs and going to amazing concerts?
 
 
Vadrice
05:11 / 10.04.02
I'll have you know the most hardcore raver I know is both blind and deaf. music feels wonderful, because it is an unmistakably plesant rythmic sensation. Tactally. Plus they love the e.
 
 
Vadrice
05:11 / 10.04.02
I'll have you know the most hardcore raver I know is both blind and deaf. music feels wonderful, because it is an unmistakably plesant rythmic sensation. Tactally. Plus they love the e.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:29 / 10.04.02
for once i have to disagree with jeanette winterson, and i thought her article was actually quite dodgy. she is looking at the issue from the outside, so far outside that she cannot understand. internalised homophobia? maybe, yeah. all i can do is repeat that having worked with 'disabled' adults and children i can see where the couple are coming from and i don't think they're wrong. alas has put it rather better than i can.
 
  

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