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Self destruction

 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
20:42 / 06.04.02
Having pulled myself away from a potentially self-destructive weekend I was thinking about the psychology of self-destruction.

What are the causes of self-destruction?

Is it a desire to destroy externally, which is thwarted and turned inwards? Or is it a manifestation of inner problems, a dissatisfaction with the current self-state?

To what extent do various substances fuel it?

I think that there is a link with creativity, a lot of creative people I know, and in history, have been self-destructive.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:37 / 06.04.02
Causes? I think both a desire to destroy, and inner problems. (Although the desire to destroy is probably a problem in itself...)

Still not too sure on the psychology, but will post again when I've thought this through (it's something I tend to acknowledge, rather than actually think about.)

Substances-wise, I find alcohol, while not the most self-destructive substance available by any means, tends to provoke it more than most things. (With the possible exception of speed/coke- which tend to provoke it when they leave, rather than booze, which out of the blue'll hit you with it while it's still there.) Booze also has the bonus of being socially-respectable self-destruction which won't happen now, but will hit when it's too late to do anything about it.

Just some initial thoughts. Must think about this one, and post something a little more well-reasoned to back those up. (Hope you're OK after the pulling yourself away from the self-destructive weekend, btw.)
 
 
Utopia
22:12 / 06.04.02
damnit guys, did "another one of those weekends" drive you here?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:54 / 07.04.02
some initial thoughts on this:

as far as i can tell, pandemic, it's more the other way around - self-destructive people can be very creative.

and substances, esp alcohol in my experience, can and do fuel self-destructive behaviour like nobody's business, though those feelings are usually present beforehand.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
14:24 / 07.04.02
hmmmm....I'd have to agree with SFD on this one, in as much as I've always considered myself destructive first and creative second (and, possibly, creative because of that destructive nature).
I agree that substances can - and do - fuel destructive or self destructive behaviour, but I've never felt that such behaviour results from creativity - or at least, not in my case.

I'm reminded of a quote from the play Quills, by Doug Wright, in which De Sade tells Abbé: "I've all the demons of Hell in my head. If I can't vent them on paper, what am I to do?". That's always rather neatly summed up the idea of artistic self-destruction for me.
 
 
Tits win
19:39 / 07.04.02
my self destructive nature, i think, comes from an internalisation of my wish to destroy the world. i turned it back on myself because i find it impossible to destroy society. so what i do now is listen to death metal and try and reverse my self destruction. realising i can't change all of the world i try to change just a little bit as much as i can. plus i have a wicked sense of humour which keeps me sane.
so basically i think that's what the self destructive impulse is in us creative people. an internalisation of external factors.
fuck, i do hate the world.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:30 / 07.04.02
I think we really need Ganesh for this one.
 
 
SMS
21:43 / 07.04.02
We had a very short topic of the same name, self destruction, and if that link doesn't work, it was supposed to be www.barbelith.com/underground/topic.php?id=933
 
 
SMS
22:01 / 07.04.02
The topic was slightly different, but I thought it might be of some interest.

I think self destruction results from the social nature of human beings. Our evolutionary development has programmed us to respond to particular signals by harming ourselves, either to the point of death, or simply to prevent us from growing on the social hierarchy. It has to do with whether we perceive ourselves as a relevant and functional member of our social group.

Some people can become more creative by distinguishing themselves from the rest of the group. New ideas can form outside the strictures everyone else subconsciously follows. But for the creativity to find expression, one must simultaneously be apart from the social group and a member of it. This gives many of us a sense of being unnecessary.

In addition to these influences, which I see as the source, psychological patterns emerge into the collective mind by expression of a self destructive psyche in the world of action. These actions are then imitated, because imitation is both common to and necessary for the species, and this leads to the behaviour spreading.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:45 / 08.04.02
Would have thought the creative and (self)destructive impulses are just different ways to express the same feelings. One being an attempt at exorcism, the other a rather more practical if overly melodramatic way of making the pain go away. Although in that case the destructive impulse would fit better with creation than self-destruction.

But will bow to any who claim to know the subject better than myself.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:04 / 08.04.02
I'm convinced that there's a difference between self-harm and self-destruction, not just in act but in motive. In many cases the two are assumed to come from the same motive, which I do not believe to be true.

Self-injury, for instance, is not the same as attempted suicide - people self-injure for a variety of reasons, to punish themselves or to gain control of their bodies or whatever. Similarly people who damage their own bodies on a regular basis with drink and drugs may have goals beyond their own destruction. Why is it assumed that it is a sublimated and incomplete urge to kill oneself that is responsible? Just because that may result, doesn't mean that is the motive. Death often results from driving too fast but that's not the motive for doing it.
 
 
Fist Fun
13:41 / 08.04.02
Wasn't it Mikhail Bakunin who said "The urge to destroy is creative"? So is self-destruction self-creation?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:04 / 08.04.02
Are you implying that EVERYONE is self-destructive? I simply don't think that this is the case. I've always had a self-destructive streak, personally, but I'm not exactly sure what the cause or the motivation for it is. I'm either in denial, or it's one of those, "known to others/unknown to self" things.

I fear tying self-destructive behaviors to creativity plays into the myth of creating involving suffering. I don't think that's necessarily true.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:01 / 08.04.02
Quite agree, Cherry. I don't think it's wise to link destructive and self-destructive behaviour (where are we distinguising between self-harming and self-destructive, by the way? Agree they are separate, but not sure of the definitions people are using). Motivations can be totally different.
 
 
SMS
21:37 / 08.04.02

Quote: originally posted by fridgemagnet
Why is it assumed that it is a sublimated and incomplete urge to kill oneself that is responsible? Just because that may result, doesn't mean that is the motive. Death often results from driving too fast but that's not the motive for doing it.

I think people generally assume the opposite. If I knocked off a department store, most people would assume I was doing it for the money, even given my present financial state. But any decision of that scale that I make is bound to have a much more complicated reason.


Quote: originally posted by Cherry Bomb
Are you implying that EVERYONE is self-destructive? I simply don't think that this is the case.

I think most people have been self destructive on some scale at some points in their lives. But I am confused about the self destruction self harm distinction.

By self harm, do we mean willfully acting in such a way that harms oneself? Thus, self destruction is a subset of self harm, in which the conscious or sub-conscious intent is also to cause self harm.

Or do we mean self destruction to be a more intense form of self harm? In one case, I might gash out my eyes. In the other, I might hang myself.
 
 
muse
01:56 / 09.04.02
There is a basic need to affect change in one's environment. Not everyone is capable of doing so constructively. One way or another, proof is required that one's world is not a vacuum. Does it matter if it's a concious or subconcious need?
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
02:37 / 09.04.02
Maybe this is a different topic, but I am self destructive. I am also creative. I'm not a self harm type, I love my miserable life too much. Haven't thought about it much but I think there is a correlation between these two things. Basically creative folk are much too sensitive for our modern life. Not an excuse but it is the truth.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
09:23 / 09.04.02
more thoughts on this: i think there *is* a link between creativity and self-destructive urges. i come out with my best writing when i am feeling terribly depressed/self-destructive. writing channels those feelings in what i hope is a constructive way. i went through a period of writing not being enough, and it was then that i was self-harming and trying to jump off bridges etc. i'm sure i wouldn't be a fiction writer if i was always happy.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:57 / 09.04.02
I read a book on self-harm a couple of years ago by (I think) Marilee Strong called "The Bright Red Scream". Her main argument, as I remember, was that self-harm is actually a survival mechanism rather than a suicidal urge, in that it enables the self-harmer to carry on going. However, her other main argument, which while not explicitly stated (as I recall) but very heavily implied, was that self-harmers are invariably victims of childhood abuse, which I wasn't. Sorry- can't give much more of a reference at the moment cos I gave my copy to an equally cheerful friend.
 
 
Ganesh
17:43 / 09.04.02
Mmm.

(At the risk of being oh-so-Barbelith), it might be helpful to clarify exactly what's meant by 'self-destructive' here: contributors seem to be using the term as something of a catch-all - encompassing everything from overdosing to heavy drinking. I'm also a little confused as to whether we're divorcing intent from outcome: does a 'self-destructive' act have to be wilfully, intentionally meant as such, or is it considered such because others perceive it to be so?

Scratching, to take a semi-flippant example. Scratching an itch is pleasurable, yes? Birds do it, bees do it (fleas, educated or otherwise, cause it). People scratch themselves for reasons of satisfaction, sexual arousal, anxiety reduction or self-hatred. When does scratching become 'self-destructive'? When carried out for the latter motivation? When it breaks the skin? When an implement is involved? What about cutting one's skin for the same reasons?

Point being, definitions of what is and isn't self-destructive are at least partly subjective; any SMer will admit that masochism's a damned convoluted (and self-destructive?) business. Particularly so when we're extending definitions to cover apparently self-destructive lifestyles...

Touching on Moominstoat's specific point about self-harming (by which I'm assuming he meant discrete behavioural episodes such as cutting, burning, etc.), it is more often than not an evolved mechanism for coping with stress ie. depending on the possible consequences of not self-harming, could be construed as adaptive. Also, while it's an overstatement to say self-harming is 'invariably' associated with childhood abuse, there's a strong correlation (talking more about self-harm as a longstanding behavioural trait rather than as an isolated episode). Need to look it up, but around 80-90%, I think.

The supposed link with creativity has become a cliche - all those suffering artists starving in garrets, dissolving neurons in absinthe or lopping ears off - but there is a postulated link. Bipolar affective disorder (manic-depressive psychosis) has a historical association with spontaneous creativity as well as bizarre, out-of-control behaviour which could well be characterised as 'self-destructive'. In contrast to many other psychiatric diagnoses ('schizophrenia', for example) it's actually become a moderately modish label in which to invest one's identity - so the term 'manic-depressive' has been eroded and slightly devalued over time.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:21 / 10.04.02
What took you so long, 'nesh?
 
 
gozer the destructor
09:20 / 10.04.02
i come out with my best writing when i am feeling terribly depressed/self-destructive

I used to feel like that, when writing music/prose, now I think though that it's just makes you too self-indulgent...I use music/prose as a solis when i'm down now and stick to writing when i'm a bit more level headed and know what i'm doing with it...I know it's horses for courses but I had a chat with a friend who is far more creative than I recently and he agreed
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
11:44 / 10.04.02
Yes, see I've been using 'self-destructive' as referring to basically suicidal efforts, although lumping in more mental forms of suicides as well, either immediate or protracted,piecemeal. Which doesn't match most of the posts here, which is why I asked. Ganesh, I take it there are no useable definitions then?
 
 
Ganesh
11:57 / 10.04.02
Finding it difficult to come up with one myself, Morlock...
 
 
Tom Coates
13:37 / 10.04.02
I suppose the kind of self-destructive behaviour that I'm particularly interested in is that kind of self-undermining stuff - where you sabotage your own life and wallow in it. Is there a continuum from this kind of behaviour to self-harm, or are they totally different phenomena..?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:52 / 10.04.02
well i'm a bit miffed - there's a big difference between creating powerful work when depressed and being 'too self-indulgent' or 'wallowing in it'. or perhaps good self-indulgent work can be created? i have written very dark horror/fantasy fiction as an alternative to self-harm. noone who's ever read my stories has used either of the terms above.
 
 
Ganesh
13:54 / 10.04.02
I know what you mean, Tom. I've heard 'masochism' used to describe those situations whereby one (presumably unconsciously) sets oneself up to fail (eg. 'deliberately' turning up late for a job interview) then apparently getting off on the sense of failure. I think this is fairly closely related to the 'martyr' phenomenon, where one intentionally gets oneself into 'overwhelming' situations then gets off on complaining about them.

I'm not sure whether it's fair to say there's a direct continuum with more obviously physical self-harming (eg. cutting) but phenomena such as 'learned helplessness' and 'Stockholm Syndrome' certainly suggest that one can become familiar - even comfortable - within a role which society in general would perceive as 'self-destructive'. In the case of those who've been repeatedly abused (physically, sexually, emotionally) as children, it's not unusual to find physical self-harming and 'learned helplessness' in the same individuals. Interesting but evidence of a common environmental 'cause' rather than a continuum, I think.

The flipside - and big attraction - of assuming a 'victim of my own self-destructiveness' role is that it allows freedom from responsibility for one's actions. Additionally, some modes of 'self-destruction' are hugely culturally acceptable, even celebrated. Betty Blue - self-harming fuck-up but mmmm, sexy...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:55 / 10.04.02
i should add: not that my stuff or motives are beyond criticism, far from it, but there seems to have been an assumption made there. i don't *think* i write hand wringing 'woe is me' stuff.... never did morrissey any harm tho....
 
 
gozer the destructor
13:57 / 10.04.02
lol, fair point...
 
 
Ganesh
14:00 / 10.04.02
SFD: In that case, your writing could equally be viewed as a more 'adaptive' mechanism you've evolved for coping with stress/distress than physical self-harming. Which can only be a Good Thing, yes?

Morlock: As others (Fridgemagnet?) have said, there are problems with describing self-harm in terms of 'attempted suicide', 'incomplete suicide', 'mental suicide' and so on. As with 'self-destructive', it assumes a degree of intent which may well be wide of the mark. A tiny minority of overdoses, for example, are unambigious 'failed suicides' - and deliberate self-laceration is far more commonly a means of anxiety reduction than an attempt to end one's life.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:40 / 10.04.02
seeing as how this topic seems to have taken a more personal turn: in the past I considered that periods of unhappiness stimulated and were central to my creativity. However, now that they've become deeper and more affecting, I'm of the opinion that frankly I could do without long stretches of my life where I can't write or otherwise create due to being paralysed with fear and misery.

Self-harm is a symptom or sign, not something in itself, and while the underlying attitude that it represents may be one that is linked to the creative process, the way it manifests itself can be actively detrimental to that process.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:42 / 12.04.02
All this stuff about creativity and self-destructive urges/mood swings, depressions (which like Ganesh, I'd like to see a lot more clearly defined. Atm all sorts of very different states are being referred to interchangeably right now, to the point where the terms used are meaningless.)...

Okay, I find it really worrying and potentially really dangerous to foster and encourage the links bewteen self-destruction/self-harm (for example) and creativity per se. Encouraging the 'tortured genius' thing encourages people to torture themselves. This is distinct from recognising that, to give egs, writing/painting/music as outlets for pain/trauma, or as 'nesh says, adaptive mechanisms.

Think it's really irresponsible (not aiming this at anyone, but at the tendency in general.) to encourage this.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:57 / 13.04.02
adaptive mechanism? sounds about right to me.

plums - i remember reading how radiohead's thom yorke and fran from travis both had 'breakdowns'. i don't know more than that - was it the real thing, or just some serious freaked outness caused by fame/drug pressure? the main thing is the reporting of it in the music press made it seem pretty 'cool'. like it was part of a hip lifestyle. i've had a breakdown. i remember it as being devastating, utter misery, and i hate it when it's dressed up as something else by people who haven't gone through it.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:36 / 13.04.02
a wise man once said "everything is more beutifull in the moment of its destruction"
another man, although not likely wise said "I hurt myself today, to see if i still feel"

Now, i have had reasons in the past to quote both of these men.
What you actually end up with when trying to either harm or destroy/lose yourself is buying into the stereotype, like ganesh said, of the creative/suicidal/self destructiv personality.

In my experience, I never came up with a brilliant idea while putting smokes out on the back of my hand, most creative i had to be was making up a story so my mom wouldnt know where the scar came from...

substance wise, i would need to agree that booze is the most likely self destructive choice, its cheap, you can drink it in social places (and thusly lie to yourself about why you are drinking so much) and theres no taboo to it. My mates are an odd bunch but i find it unlikely they wouldnt freak if, during a night of card playing i started shooting up.

what it comes down to, from my perspective, is that all you get through self destructive behavior is a taste for it, so next weekend you do it again, and perhaps at a higher intensity
 
  
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