Tom said:
>>I've recently become aware that I almost never stray into the Magick forum, and I don't really know why that is, except I suppose that I'm quite suspicious about the conversations that go on within it. That's being as honest as I can be - not, I hope, just being unpleasant and judgmental. <<
It's not like those of us who frequent the Magic forum haven't noticed this (and I'm not directing this at you in particular). I remember starting up a whole thread devoted to this subject nearly a year ago.
>>Anyway - one thing I was wondering - to what extent is the Magick forum a critical one rather than an experiential one. I'm not trying to diminish it, but to what extent is debate had within the Magick forum about the reasonings behind it, the practices themselves, results and/or the lack of them, the motivations for doing it... <<
We have considered, and debated these points many times on the Magic forum before. Some of the more frequent questions on the forum are to do with motivations, results and analysis. Of course, since you don't frequent the board that much, perhaps you didn't realise that.
This forum, as I remember it from two years of hanging out here, is both experimental and critical. In fact it has become more experimental in the past year only, before that the emphasis was more on analysis, debate, and discussions of technique and framework. So, there's a huge range in subject matter.
>>It just made me think - perhaps my own personal vision of Magickal activity - that the world is a semantically based organism, that arguments and ideas and concepts have transformative power, that there's a connection between consciousness, quantum science and material existence/decision-making/realities - was perhaps a very very different one from the one being practiced on the board. <<
There are many different attitudes towards Magic, and I'm sure your attitudes correspond with some of us on the forum, and it might differ dramatically from others. Magic is a very personal and subjective thing, which can lead to difficulties in finding commonalities in experience. Even the language we use can be a barrier. Some of us couch our words in pseudo-scientific and academic lingo, which may not be understood by everyone, while others use the language of fantasy and myth, which may be dismissed as overtly fanciful by others. Neither of the two examples I cite are right or wrong, by the way, merely that language can be a hindrance at times.
Many of my personal experiences are often very difficult to translate into words. Of course that's because I have not received the information that way. When doing a shamanic journey, for instance, you are given information in a multi-layered way. Someone/thing might be talking to you, but underneath the words is a layer of emotional and non-linguistic information that is received by other parts of your brain. Or so it seems to me. It's like when you dream, and sometimes you just know something, even though you may not remember being told it through normal means.
If it makes any difference, your attitude towards Magic seems pretty reasonable to me, based on my own experiences.
>>And that perhaps it could be really interesting for people to kind of explain individually, to non-magickally inclined board members what it is that you're doing and what's the conceptual model or range of conceptual models that you work with when you do it.<<
OK, I'll do my best, even though I've done this song and dance many times before.
First off I'm very sceptical about my experiences. I do not necessarily believe everything I have experienced, but I often cannot doubt the impact of the experience itself. I always look for validation, and for signs that what I've been told, seen, etc. has some basis in normal life. This is not always forthcoming, because some of the experiences have nothing to do with everyday human life, but sometimes there are spectacular confirmations.
Of course, one of the first questions you get bogged down in when you get involved in this work is: what is the nature of reality? I tend to have a more fluid attitude towards that now, and don't take reality to mean "what I can see and touch", because I've experienced reality in more non-tangible ways. Once again, I'm falling into the language problem, because the concepts are not always easy to impart.
Some of the basic ideas that I've been able to extrapolate from my experiences (and this changes regularly) are:
1. We are all fundamentally connected.
2. Each of us is innately powerful.
3. We all have the potential to affect the world in tangible and non-tangible ways.
From my shamanic work I would say:
1. Each living thing has a Spirit.
2. We can communicate with these Spirits.
3. There are many other Spirits that are not confined to our notions of time/space to whom we can communicate also.
>>I mean for example - do you believe in the transformative power of Magick? Or do you play with it? Or do you think belief implies certainty where there's only ambiguity? Or that it is possible to hold a multiplicity of ideas about the validity of something in your mind at the same time? Is YOUR magick like mine? Or am I completely missing the point?!<<
Despite what some people say, I don't think that belief is necessary for magic to work. Belief is not necessary for gravity to work, for instance. It is a force that happens. As a friend of mine says, I don't necessarily believe in the postman, but I get mail every day. What I would say is that I have experienced the transformative power of Magic. Why I make this point is that beliefs can end up being dogmatic assumptions, and I try to have as few of them as possible. Every time I think I come down to a core set of beliefs I have the rug yanked from underneath my feet. I've been pretty much told that having set beliefs can hinder your experience of Magic, and it is best to have as open and flexible an attitude as possible towards it. Not always easy, and I'm not perfect and have been tripped up by this more than once.
I'm not sure how to take your following question, as it seems to have a rather negative slant. Some of the power of Magic is that it should be play, and it should be fun. There is nothing wrong with using Magic in a playful manner, though I suspect that is not what you were asking. While Magic requires a certain amount of dedication and discipline (which puts off many people who expect it to be easy), it should also be humourous and fun.
I'm taking your following question to ask: do you just believe in something when you have no conclusive proof. My answer would be No. I have many experiences, and I'm told many things that I can't necessarily prove at the time. What I do is accept the information, and carry on with life. It's placed in a "could be true/may not be true" space. A great deal of the time what I'm told comes to pass, or proves to be accurate, and then it gets shifted into the "true" box. From past experiences, some of the information might be put into the "quite likely to be true" box, because I know from past experiences that the source that gave me the data has been consistently reliable.
The biggest problem with all information received in this manner, however, is that it's been taken in via my own set of filters that can put a spin on how I understand what I'm being told. I'm always aware of this difficulty, and I do my best to put in as many safeguards as possible against jumping to conclusions.
Yes, I think it's entirely possible to have many different ideas about how valid something is at the same time. I often do.
Your concept of Magic sounds quite close to my own, but only through further discussion on both sides could I tell for sure.
I hope I've made some sense in the above. |
)a thaumaturgic ritual would channel and focus my intent in such a way as to harness electricity towards my goal. A theurgic ritual would perhaps petition a god of lightning for his aid and power towards my goal.
) have expanded upon above?