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When it's hard work being you

  
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:27 / 05.04.02
I know that what I'm sbout to write is not new by any means but i must admit in the past that I've tended to drop out of these threads when the theory bitches take over, and I'm kinda hoping here that things will be explained rather than assuming I did philosophy at university, I did librarianship because there was less heavy lifting, okay?

Anyway, I've just written this in my cute old-fashioned paper journal, about last weekend. I spent Easter with my parents and the idea was that on Monday I would go with my Dad shopping and we'd buy my new computer. As it turned out we did it on Saturday evening. So come Sunday afternoon...

... I decided it was time to leave. My reason for this was admittedly rather self-centred, now I had my new computer there was no reason to stay. But it's also slightly more complicated, to me a holiday is not a holiday unless I get the time alone. Even when I'm enjoying myself with friends like [x] or [y] there's an element of me that resents the time given and as I'm writing this I'm wondering; do i resent the time and effort given to the performance of Loz, the mildly interesting, opinionated and amusing person that people don't mind being around? Do I not feel on holiday when I'm around other people- purely because I'm still working?

The question is really just a simple one, does anyone feel the same way? On one level it worries me a bit because it's the level of detachment of my thoughts that I've noticed for years, the part of me that would rather sit back and observe rather than engage trying to justify it's actions. But the last few years have been my busiest socially. Is it perhaps just a reaction to that?

I guess it's a solitary thing. Do those of you who are hardly ever alone feel differently? Has anyone who's gone from a long period of isolation to being in perpetual company noticed a change?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:44 / 05.04.02
I feel the same way. I continually feel the need for time to myself.

I enjoy the fact that I am the only early riser in my house because I usually get two hours in the morning without seeing or speaking to anyone. I enjoy this time to myself. I don't have a problem with the people in my social circle, in fact I would be hard pressed to find a better set of friends.

Sometimes I get momentary flashes of worry that what goes on in my head is incredibly incompatible with the world that surrounds my head.

I know that, by nature, I am a solitary person. I've never truly felt part of any group larger than two or maybe three if it's close friends.

If I'm put in the position of being in the company of people for extended periods of time that I loose my cheer and calm that people normally associate with my character and become restless and withdrawn.

I really can't offer any explanation as to why you are how you are but simply offer that what you desbribe seems somewhat similar to how I am myself.
 
 
Utopia
18:46 / 05.04.02
yes, i do. i think there's two reasons for it: 1. i am very comforatble with myself. i enjoy my own company, and find that i get a lot done when i'm by myself (even if by "a lot" i mean falling aslees watching Xanadu, which i plan on doing shortly). 2.i, like you, feel that i am an observer. if someone is willing to do something to interest me, i'm content to watch. i like to go out to eat by myself for this very reason. most people i know find that rather freakish...

i'm also an only child... you didn't mention any brothers or sisters, so i guess you are too. this has such an important role in your feelings towards "solitary refinement." i wasn't always so comfortable with isolation, but i think having a group of friends that understand this aspect of my life makes it alright. i know i have a safety net if i fall too deep into my subconcious.

i think that the time i spend with myself is for comfort, relaxation, creativity that i'd be hesitant to share with others before i'm sure of the outcome, and reflection. my roommate is about to move out, meaning that i'll have a pretty spacious apartment all to myself for the next six weeks or so. i'm interested to see how this affects my solitary comfort.

anyone else out there enjoy dining or going to the movies etc more when you're alone?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:04 / 05.04.02
Uh....Loz' question, if I understand it correctly, is a theoretical one based on personal experience, concerns whether your interrelations with others are recognisably performative and tiring, rather than whether you just enjoy being alone. How do you fellows feel on that score?
 
 
Utopia
20:20 / 05.04.02
heh, duh. just kinda got lost while i was typing. cough cough.

i'll say yes to this one too. i'm sitting here wondering why i'm waiting on friends this weekend when i can have so much wacky fun by myself...

i'd like to add an optional question: if you met someone exactly like you (like jerry's janene garofolo on Seinfeld, would that be your best friend/soul mate, or would you brutally decapitate and devour them?

that nap after Xanadu wasn't as refreshing as i'd hoped.
 
 
Persephone
21:21 / 05.04.02
whether your interrelations with others are recognisably performative and tiring

My answer, yes. I think this is characteristic of introverts --to clarify, this is introversion and not shyness. The question that you get a lot on Myers-Brigg type tests is whether you experience the company of other people as exhausting or exhilirating. So even a person who seems very outgoing and talkative is just as likely to be a socially-adjusted introvert as an extrovert. It may interest you that most of my flamboyant actor friends test solidly as introverts, which supports the theory that introversion does not necessarily impede individuals from functioning --indeed, performing-- in front of an audience. Indeed introverts may find themselves quite good actors, because the only time they are not acting is when alone or asleep.

I don't resent this, personally. I can just barely imagine what it's like to be an extrovert & I think that would be harder. It's not so hard to figure out a few social graces, but solitude is harder to master for those who aren't inclined.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:17 / 06.04.02
Utopia- Actually I have a sister that is three years younger than me. But my life has tended towards situations where I'm on my own (reading comics in my bedroom, doing a paper-round, working to school or work) where she seems to have gone for the exact opposite.

I know that at Kooky's birthday party before Christmas she commented that I was always the first one to leave (in terms of an 'I'm done!' rather than because I have somewhere else to be that night) and I'm thinking that part of the reason is what I'm describing.

Persephone- Interesting stuff. I guess this is where the stereotype of the artist as tragic clown came from. What is the definition of an introvert anyway?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:19 / 06.04.02
"Recognizably performative"...yeah, that's good. That's what I would describe my interractions with my immediate family as. Like it's all a game of "functional family" and I'm the only one who doesn't give a fuck about the game, and they're all saying "dammit, play along" and trying to stay in character at the same time. Right now, I feel a strong desire to trick my entire family into getting really, really stoned.
 
 
Utopia
19:13 / 06.04.02
go for it! then come back and tell us what happened. i'm a sucker for "hallucinogens in the drinking water" stories.
 
 
Persephone
22:31 / 06.04.02
What is the definition of an introvert anyway?

Where you started this topic was already beyond dictionary definitions; so I think we're talking paradigms now, but that's all the better.

Here is Keirsey's take on introversion, which checks out with me & may also with you: "If required by their job, family, or social responsibilities to be expressive or outgoing -- to make a great interpersonal effort -- they are soon exhausted and need alone time in quiet places to rest and to restore their depleted energy. Thus, if Reserved persons go to a noisy cocktail party, after a short period of time -- say, half an hour -- they are ready to go home."
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:00 / 06.04.02
That's interesting. Just lost a post but was basically saying that breaking/questioning the assumed connection between lively sociability and extroversion is an useful step.

Persephone's description above of 'introverted social bunnies' rings true for alot of people i know, myself included (sometimes). And was going to say that I think it has a lot to do with comfort zones and your investment/attitude to the dynamics of social interaction.

Waffling slightly, I know, but what I mean is that if you approach interactions feeling that the thing to do is to fit in with the existing situation/personalities, and that you'll do this, even at the cost of your own sense of self, that this can be a very insecure place to. You may be effervescing, but you might well be a long way out of your comfort zone, and therefore, 'in role', which is an exhausting place to be.

And while on first glance the Keirsey def seems somewhat narrow and prescriptive, when I actually think about what would constitute a requirement of "job, family, or social responsibilities", this covers a vast range of structures. About all it seems to miss out are moral/philosophical/faith-based responsibilities, but pretty much everything we do is in there.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:17 / 06.04.02
That was meant to be, pretty much everything else we do...

Not sure how authoritative is and don't have access to books right now, but here's an interesting alternative description of the distinction between intro/extro-verts, attributing its coining to Jung, from Edward Sapir:

"the popular contrast between introverts and extraverts, the former abstracting more readily from reality and finding their sense of values and personal identification within themselves, while the latter evaluate experience in terms of what is immediately given by the environment."

In both this and Persephone's definition there are already huge value judgements taking place, and I'd suggest that this is where some of the 'hard work' comes in.

And to get anecdotal for a minute, spent some time with my best friend recently for the first time in a long time and realised I was really happy and the most relaxed I'd been in ages. This being at least partly to do with the fact that with him there's no performance going on at all. And that worryingly, while I may feel like this with lots of other people sometimes, he's the only person I feel like that around all the time. But it's a state that feels really great, and is the opposite of this 'exhausting performance'.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
00:23 / 07.04.02
Recognisably performative: hell, yeah.
Tiring: not usually.

Perhaps it depends on whom I'm around, and what the situation is. I find it very difficult to keep up my Stoic Canadian-Scottish Family Suit at funerals, where I feel the intense urge to hold back tears and not look at any of my relatives in the eye. Then I get annoyed at the repressiveness of this particular culture, I get angry with myself for not being able to be upset without feeling like I'm breaking custom, and I'm really freaked out by the fact that I seem to know instinctively what the proper reactions are. That usually tires me out more than the emotions more directly associated with the loss of a loved one.

In general, however, I find I like being around people, and I have a tendency not to censor the real me too much anymore. I rub a lot of folks the wrong way with that, I suspect, but all my good friends are well used to seeing me without the whistles and bells. I frankly don't know if I'm an introvert or an extrovert; I have moments of both extremes and am starting to believe the division doesn't apply to some people. Perhaps this is my Gemini talking.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:21 / 07.04.02
I love the way the topic abstract starts in the middle of a question, but it sums up nicely: 'Is it an effort to be you and do you resent that?'

I think social conditions structure how and what people perform 'themselves' to a noticeable extent. Ie, I am someone who usually spends a great deal of time alone, and often I do find it tiring to be social. There are a few reasons for that; one of the main ones is that right now, lots of people don't know important things about me and thus tend to read me 'wrongly'. Depending on how or what that means in different situations, I have either tended to project a personality and responses to people which have had little to do with what I've been thinking/feeling, or just get pretty anxious and leave... It seems to get worse in the company of lots of people; one person, even if I don't know them so well, is usually okay.

And then there's Easter -- I just spent almost 24 hours a day around other people for almost two weeks, in various places -- staying with friends, camping at Woomera and other places. We (about 10 people) slept all together on a tarpaulin under the stars for five days, which meant that time alone had to be taken via walks or deliberately asking for space. Strangely enough, the longer I spent in other peoples' company (especially the group I was with) the more comfortable I felt, and the easier it was to just hang out rather than taking time alone. I think this also really lowered my internal boundaries, too; since I got back I've found it far easier to be honest with people about how I'm feeling, and far easier to just 'be' instead of performing. This is totally unexpected -- although I did nearly go mad from spending so much time with people, I think. We all did, and consequently people became far more blunt about being irritated by someone else's behaviour; things got resolved faster, when usually you'd just sit on them and wait for it to end. I think I was probably acting far more spontaneously by the end, too; not so self-conscious or self-absorbed.

Which brings me to a bit of a point: Western culture tends to atomise people. We spend an awful lot of time 'alone' -- in cars, on public transport, at computers, at work. Which makes the transition from not-engaged (solitary) to socially-engaged-and-aware far more traumatic, maybe? Or far more difficult for people who feel they need to perform or project who they are. Social spaces are also made far more significant through this, I think, and formalised: you go to a cocktail party, you 'have coffee' or 'have lunch' with someone, which injects the expectation of an outcome or the meeting of a particular social contract. Does this make sense?

(I have way more to add, especially about the difference between being properly alone and 'alone' but around other people, in an urban sense -- but I'll leave it there.)
 
 
Fist Fun
13:37 / 07.04.02
I think it can be a real effort in family situations just because, in sulky teenage fashion, you never asked to be born. You have certain family responsibilities lumped on you just by being alive. You are supposed to sit and talk with various old people, siblings whatever even if you don't really connect with them. It takes effort to be a son or brother or whatever...
Then at work, you read all the interview advice, you shine your shoes and put on yer bestest outfit. You come across as the smoothest, most confident person in the world. Mr Interview. Then you get the job and you slowly settle in to being yourself which probably isn't the person they hired in the interview. So then you have to play a part at work...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:18 / 07.04.02
That's a good point about the ritualising of socialising. Living on my own, and not working atm, there are very few spaces that where I coexist without making a definite 'social' decision to do so. This can make social situations quite intimidating, and alienating, the 'being alone in a crowd of people' thing.

I like Rosa's example of camping out with loads of people, another of my own is living in big shared houses, particularly one I lived in for a while which was a very communal space. Being around people as a state of living was a very distinct experience, my general space consisted of eight people, including me, rather than me going to meet/socialise/encounter other people. Became much blunter, again, but also a lot less protective of my own shell/borders/space. Or perhaps found that there were other compensations for any losses in these areas.

Sometimes it did drive me barmy, and I foudn myself formalising 'alone time' but this I'd suggest is a very unusual situation in contemporary (middle-class ?) Western societies.

Also reminded of spending time at various family homes in India, where the level of communality is taken for granted. Various branches of my father's family, for instance, share a house. There's gossip and politics and people get on each other's nerves, but there's also a very different existence, we (family of four) lived in three rooms, but within a larger set-up where there would be other sub-groups that intermingled, by generation, gender, tasks around the house, etc.

Will think about this more, but I think why I'm talking about this is that intro/extroversion work in very different ways in these set-ups.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:22 / 07.04.02
Time can be a factor in this 'contracting' we meet up with a particular purpose and a fixed time in which to achieve that, even if it's only to catch up on each others' news, and are perhaps goal-driven in socialising, in a way that isn't much different to work, and therefore brings on the same patterns of behaviour ( as regards 'putting on the suit/attitude')

Again, as my time's pretty much my own, meetings with people tend to be pretty elastic, not neccessarily better, but just something that lots of people don't have time for. I really enjoy time not being that much of a factor with some of my social circle, can see someone for 1/2 hr or all day, depending on my/our mood/inclination.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:30 / 08.04.02
While hardly a deep-thought reply, here, I have to say that I do feel that socialising with people can be very performative. It's odd, because I geniuinely like some of the people that I'm socialising with - say, at Barbemeets or whatever - but I'm also of the mind that I have to "be" someone analogous to who I am online/suitwise. Or, rather, that there's certain elements that're enhanced by dint of my text appearance that I have to stimulate a little more in real-life.

It can be a tiring thing, I think, but not always. Usually, it's related to my general level of tiredness, more than any difficulty of keeping the suit going.

I do think there's a lot of the "atomising" effect that's had an impact on me, as Rosa suggests - with me I perhaps feel it more (or think I do) because of the fact that though I live in the UK, I'm still an outsider here, to a certain extent.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:49 / 08.04.02
(rosa) Western culture tends to atomise people. We spend an awful lot of time 'alone' -- in cars, on public transport, at computers, at work. Which makes the transition from not-engaged (solitary) to socially-engaged- and-aware far more traumatic, maybe?

At first I was going to say "bollocks" to this, on the basis that there is an awful lot of required interaction in life - but thinking more about it, said interaction is limited in duration and scope and thus shallow (as plums points out). If I talk to my workmates all the time, but only about work, I'm going to keep my "work hat" on all the time with them. If I meet my friends only once every couple of weeks, I'm going to keep my "crazy fun fridge" hat on.

Completing the social rituals that are required when you meet people takes time, and rituals don't give you the space to be yourself that seems to be required to relax. If you live with people and interact with them all the time on a non-limited basis, you get the rituals out of the way (which are usually for meeting strangers only) and the scope of your conversation can open up.

Of course the question that poses is - is it necessarily true that people have to be able to "be themselves" to relax? There seem to be some people that can be twenty-four hour posers and still be entirely happy. The cynic in me says that that's because they don't actually have a personality underneath the posing, but is it better to have a personality that's based on your reaction to yourself over one that's based on other people's reaction?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:07 / 08.04.02
I think that "posing" - presenting a particular, self-constructed public face in a totally self-conscious manner and with control over that public face and that manner - and "performance" might be two different things.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:08 / 08.04.02
I think that "posing" - presenting a particular, self-constructed public face in a totally self-conscious manner and with control over that public face and that manner - and "performance" might be two different things.

true, I was using them a bit interchangeably there which was wrong, a conscious pose is different from an unconscious pose

I don't think there's always a straightforward distinction though. You can perceive yourself putting on a particular hat but not be in control of it, or aware of all the things you are doing. You may intend to appear responsible and businesslike in conversations with your boss, say, but your body language may be changing to make you appear submissive, which was not your aim. Or you may consciously know that you repress your feelings around your father who used to hit you, but be unable to consciously change that.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:37 / 08.04.02
Hmmm, lots of familiar sounding stuff here. Who'd have thought.

On the atomising subject, I often get the feeling that most socialising seems to be deliberate, organised, and feel that this demands some level of participation above the level I can comfortably sustain. You know, if you bother going to the party you gotta dance.

So for me it's not so much an effort to be me, but an effort to be an acceptable version of me, whatever that may be. And yeah, I'm not too happy about that.

As for the "posing" and "performance" distinction, I see posing as creating a single image to maintain in public, while "performance" is more a reaction to what you think others want to see, as per Rothkoid's post. In which case the effort depends on who you're with.

I dunno, there are lots of reasons I could have a rather skewed perspective on this.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:35 / 08.04.02
I have stuff to say to reply to what others have been saying which I'll get round to at some point, just want to throw out another question. Those of you who have identified that you do find the performance tiring, do you go on the Internet, newsgroups, message boards, blogs et al a lot? Thinking about it part of the attraction to me of newsgroups is that I control my interaction with other people, my performance lasts only as long as each message and I decide what discussions I get involved with.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:52 / 08.04.02
Those of you who have identified that you do find the performance tiring, do you go on the Internet, newsgroups, message boards, blogs et al a lot?

yes, and yes, and it's interesting you should say that, because I still find it quite tiring when I feel I have to perform. Blogs are quite relaxing. Having a site was relaxing, but knowing that a lot of people check it and expect updates has become less relaxing (not that I'm taking it down). Chat can be extremely tiring with random strangers and that's the reason I don't turn Trillian on very often.

that and the various psychological avoidance disorders of course
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:58 / 08.04.02
If I didn't have to sleep, I'd be on the internet all the fucking time. I'm on it from the start of work (9:30ish) until I leave (usually about 6:30pm, often later - sometimes 11:00pm or so), and usually spend an hour or three (more like) online at home.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
15:53 / 08.04.02
Actually, that's exactly why I'm here, polish up my social skills and generally knock out the cobwebs in an environment where I can be as anonymous as is comfortable. 'T ain't so scary in here as out there.

Although having said that, it still amazes me how long I take writing and rewriting almost any post.

Other than this I don't wander around the net much, at least not looking for other people.
 
 
Ierne
14:13 / 09.04.02
I can empathize with Loz in that constantly dealing with other people can be exhausting. Different situations and personalities require different aspects of one's own personality to come to the fore. (It's sort of like juggling, deciding "who needs to know how much and what about me...") If one is naturally inclined to shyness (as I am), the effort that goes into willfully interacting with others and being social is that much more strenuous.

That isn't necesarily a *negative* thing, however. I look upon sociability as a skill and not a personality trait – something you do, not something you are. Yes, I'm painfully shy, but if I don't get out and interact with people I'll never learn how. (I use the present tense because it's a perpetual process. There's never a point where one stops learning – not as long as there's new people to meet.) Sometimes I'll mess up or make a social faux pas, but I'll have learned from it (hopefully!).

As for internet experience – this board is the only experience I've had, and I have a limited amount of time to spend here. I find the lack of physicality very freeing – it doesn't matter what I look like here, what matters is how I think – but I am quite reluctant about divulging personal matters here. And if asked a question that I don't care to answer, it's easier to refuse and not feel "put on the spot" or awkward.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:05 / 09.04.02
Hmmm. I would say that I'm pretty socially gifted. I've never been shy, I genuinely like people, and I am very intuitive; it doesn't take me very long to read a social situation and act accordingly.

When I was younger, I was incredibly insecure and desperate for social approval. I felt I had to "make up" for the fact that I was overweight by being the funniest, the friendliest, etc., because I wasn't going to be the prettiest. It was in many ways a sham, my niceness and friendliness and there would be times when I would explode at people, basically due to my pent-up resentment and bending over backwards for them. Still, I got very, very good at presenting myself in social situations, in the way I was "supposed" to behave.

Many things have happened to me since I felt this way, and these days I'm vey confident, and I don't care much if people like me or not. But I still have this social skill, and I do use it. I liken it to wearing clothes. If I'm going to a formal dinner, I'll wear formal clothes. If I'm hanging out at home, I'll wear jeans or whatever. I'm still me - I don't think at this point I could pretend not to be, but if I'm with my parents my behavior differs somewhat from my behavior with friends.

It's hard to describe, actually; I know I slip into roles with both groups, but I always feel like myself, regardless. And the closest analogy I can come up with is, I look somewhat different in a skirt and low-cut top than I do in a t-shirt and jeans, but I still look pretty much the same.

I don't find this exhausting at all, by the way. It's so easy to do for me, I think due to years of "please like me please like me!" behavior that it's not even something I have to think about. I don't know if that makes me come across as shallow; I don't feel shallow and I don't think I am. I just have an easy time being comfortable in a variety of social situations.

All of this said, though I love being with others, I also love being by myself. I don't feel lonely when I'm with me. Maybe I'll just read, or I'll take a walk or whatever, but I feel like I need that time by myself, and if I didn't get it I would not enjoy the time I spend with others as much as I do. (I actually wrote an essay about this once, now that I recall...)

plums hit on an interesting point in regards to feeling completely comfortable with some people. There are people that I feel that way with, I suppose. Although for me it's less that I don't have to perform for them, and more that they understand me intimately and accept me, warts and all.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:36 / 10.04.02
I'm just bumping this up because I'd quite like to see Haus develop his point about 'posing' and 'performance' because other than the negative connotations that 'posing' has I don't see a difference between the two. Is it a question of intensity?
 
 
Ganesh
16:44 / 10.04.02
On a purely personal note, one of the biggest factors in my recognising my partner as The One was the fact that I felt, almost immediately, comfortable enough to be around him twenty-four hours a day. Prior to this, I'd sworn blind that I could never live with another person because 48 hours was my absolute upper limit as far as 'invasion of personal space' was concerned. With ZoCher, there was a spontaneous dropping of ego boundaries, of stressful performance; that, for me, was hugely uncharacteristic.
 
  
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