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What next in Israel?

 
  

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sleazenation
16:07 / 31.03.02
Following the recent news that Ariel Sharon has declared war against Yasser Arafat and his organisation I guess I just want to ask "what next?" What are peoples hopes and beliefs about what will happen next in the middle east?
 
 
Situationism Made Queasy
22:26 / 31.03.02

So. Things are pretty fucked up.

My prediction?
I would be surprised if Arafat lives through another month.

My hopes?
Obviously, that the peacenik left in Israel finds a leader, builds enough
momentum, and gets Sharon out of office so that they can pull
out of the territories, the Arab League re-extends their gesture of peace
and everybody lives happily ever after.

Of course, even if Israel pulls out of the territories, there's still picky
issues like the right of return and the Golan to deal with.
 
 
netbanshee
22:51 / 31.03.02
If only prevailing good vibes and common sense could solve world problems.

I have a feeling that the Palestinians along with Arafat will be getting their heads handed to them and that unless Israel completely demolishes everybody, angrier people will soon follow. And even if by some miracle, Israel gave back lands and became part of the Arab league, the whole land rights and ownership issue will decontruct into further problems. Seems like every stone uncovered leaves nasty bugs that need squashing...

What seems so bad about everything too is the fact that there's not a level playing field in the whole issue. Sharon's just got too many military facilities at his touch to be forced into reacting in a political manner that can allow insight thru negotiation. And with Palestine's own voice being reduced to nothing, what can be done?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:44 / 01.04.02
As usual, the gulf between my hopes for what should happen and my belief/fears for what will happen is pretty fucking big. It's getting harder to see a way out of this one- and Bush, having pretty much decided from day one that the middle East wasn't worth bothering with, has fanned the flames through ignorance- the "war on terrorism" theme has become a catch-all justification for everyone from Sharon and Putin to Mugabe.
The whole thing scares the fuck out of me, to be honest.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
03:37 / 01.04.02
begin pessimism

Prediction:
The US negotiator Zinn goes in to see Arafat.
He gets killed by "palestinians"
Who are mossad in disguise
Sharon carpet-bombs Ramalla in "response"
Arafat dies
Israel conquers what is left of Palestine
The Arab Nations declare war on Israel
although they didn't care about Arafat alive
dead he makes a good excuse
The US Declares war on Iraq
and supplies Israel with even more weapons
The US drops a stategic nuke on Iraq
because of suprising situations of course
There is a massive oil crisis and
continuing war in the middle-east

end pessimism

On an up note Electric cars finally reach North American streets.
 
 
alas
12:50 / 01.04.02
it occurred to me that any nation with nuclear weapons ought to be regarded as being on precisely the same moral level as a suicide bomber, but on a much HUGER level.
 
 
seamonkey
14:43 / 01.04.02
I seriously dread every news report I hear coming out of that region now...Ariel Sharon has finally gotten what he wanted, an excuse to settle old scores, ie. pick up where he left off from the previous war in Lebanon. It seems more like a personal vendetta thing at this point between him and Arafat in certain ways. This shit was not going on when Rabin was in office, real peace for the region seemed so close back then. Now, I don't know. Its hard to say where this will lead, but there is always the possibility of an escalation via other nations becoming involved. From what I've heard, fighting has broken out along the Lebanese border with the Hezbollah, and I wouldn't be suprised if Syria starts moving troops to its border with Israel. At the same time, I kind of doubt that other nations would become actively involved in the sense of an actual Arab-Israeli war like in '73, but given what has gone on in recent years in other parts of the world where Muslims were being threatened (Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, wars in Bosnia, Chechnya, etc.), I'm thinking the more likely scenario is a jihad-type situation with volunteers from all over the Muslim world coming to say, Lebanon, to try and cross the border, or maybe Syria. Jordan and Egypt seem less likely to allow that to happen, but one never knows. I do anticipate riots and coup attempts in Egypt over that nation's peace treaty with Israel; also, there is alot of undergound radical Islamic activity there, so it shouldn't be too surpising. Probably rioting in other Arab/Muslim nations with pro-US govts., as Bush seems to be distancing himself now from the idea of a Palestinian state. This of course could seriuously blow up in our faces when we start to go after Iraq. Also, our antagonism towards Iran could lead to problems with Russia down the line, as those two countries are drawing closer together. In addition, Israel has some kind of defence treaty with Turkey, which is also a NATO member, is the location of major US bases, and is currently occupying a piece of Iraq due to its counter-insurgency against the Kurds. This overlapping of NATO and the situation in the MidEast is something that should concern everyone, as tensions continue to escalate in the region. I don't see all-out war per se, more like a collapse of pro-western govts. in the region as the Israeli-Palestinian war spirals into a quagmire with mujahideen raids into northern Israel and an exponential increase in terrorism. Hopefully, the UN can step in and intervene, but I doubt it.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:05 / 01.04.02
The Washington Post had an interesting article about the road to Hell Sharon is determined to drag Israel down into. I'd link it in the text but I'm lost without the old URL buttons.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/732228.asp?0dm=N13QN

And if you think Sharon is bad, ugh, you should hear Netanyahu's kill-em-all-let-God-sort-em-out rhetoric. I thought that bastard got hooked off the stage. Between that kind of Israeli saber rattling (anybody ever been to netanyahu.org. Christ that guy is scary!) and the Palestinian majority belief that peace is the wussy way out, I'm starting to wonder if there will ever not be a time of bloodshed.

Sad, sad stuff.
 
 
Situationism Made Queasy
16:03 / 01.04.02
Just to get everyone down a little more:

What do you think are the odds on Israel surviving the sort of mass jihad
that people seem to be predicting, with volunteer fighters coming from
all over the Arab world?

Will the idea of a Jewish state ultimately have to be written off as a failure
and the area subsumed in the sort of tide of arabism and islam that seems
to be on the rise?

What happens to Israelis in that situation?

A nation of Daniel Pearls?
 
 
Not Here Still
16:43 / 01.04.02
Er....

"Will the idea of a Jewish state ultimately have to be written off as a failure and the area subsumed in the sort of tide of arabism and islam that seems to be on the rise? "

Would that be the recent Arab conference which ended with a majority of states signing up to the Saudi Peace Plan?

The plan which recognises Israel's right to exist, secures its borders, and normalises diplomatic relations as long as Israel returns to its pre-1967 borders?

Anyway, my hope is that the situation can be resolved with the minimum of bloodshed on both sides. That's some hope however, and I doubt it will happen.

My fear is that we are being drawn towards a major conflict, which will decimate not just Israelis and Palestinians, but a large part of the Middle East.

Which will then draw other nations around the World into the War. Not least, it will give America a stronger hand to move on Iraq - which will draw retribution itself, and draw other natiosn into the war.

It doesn't look good, I'm afraid.
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:25 / 01.04.02
I remember being so happy when Barak won the elections back in 98 or whenever.... goddamnit.

With luck, it will finally hit enough people that retaliation won't stop the bombings and for chrissakes accept the Saudi plan! For crying out loud, what more could you ask for?

Has anyone heard of the growing number of Israeli soldiers who have signed a petition refusing to serve in the West Bank?
 
 
Hieronymus
18:59 / 01.04.02
Yep. Thank god for those refuseniks and some modicum of level-headedness in this insanity.

This probably might require a seperate spun-off thread but why is that the moderate viewpoint from both sides of this conflict seems to have absolute SQUAT in highly visible representation? Arafat or Sharon? Fuck that lesser of two evils nonsense. Where's the Ghandi or Martin Luther King or even a half-ass Gerry Adams in this?

Then again... really thinking on it I should know there was. And he was assassinated in 95. *sighs*
 
 
grant
17:15 / 02.04.02
Four horsemen riding from the Mountain of Megiddo.

The only way settlers will leave the West Bank is if they are killed.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
18:01 / 02.04.02
Solomon!! (part deux)

Israeli Patent Of Solomon's Temple Granted

From Mike Young - myoung@skydock.com

3-28-2

INTERNATIONAL PRESS RELEASE

The State of Israel after a 4 year battle has issued a patent on Solomon's Temple to a scholar from North Pole, Alaska. The scholar Michael Young claims he has re-created a model of Solomon's Temple which originally stood in downtown Jerusalem. He was issued a United States patent relatively quickly. After the U.S. patent # 423,681 was issued he applied for an Israeli patent. It was finally approved and Patent # 30565 was issued in March of 2002.

His website is a detailed study of rabbinical questions regarding various temple models and why he believes his model is the correct version. Temple scholarship is a very narrow field of study. Very few experts on this subject matter exist. In Israel there are various competing groups trying to establish the real model of the Temple of Solomon. According to his views Solomon's Temple was 20 stories tall. It also had 6 outer gates which stood 10 stories tall each. A real twist is he has the Holy Chamber where the Deity resides on top of the gigantic structure up 2 sets of winding staircases. It is three football fields square, 300 x 300 yards. He said, "If a temple scholar is willing to answer a single question which I have posted on my website he will see that he will come to my point of view regarding the size and scope of the Temple in very short time."

With as much innocent blood that has been shed on both sides he claims peace in Israel cannot occur without the rebuilding of the Temple.

A full set of gallery pictures offers a breathtaking view of an ancient temple if in fact it ever did exist? The original builder of the Temple was born from the 27th or 28th wife of the harem of King David. As always Israel provides plenty of political intrige. Such was the case of his son Solomon who at a tender age of about 20 began a blood cleansing which along with certain key priests which put him on the throne. Thus he was established to be the chosen of God. The construction of the original Temple of the Lord took 7 years.

Mike says, "Time is on my side. If the Shekinah is ever to descend it must be on this temple according to Ezekiel" Asked what do you mean by the Shekinah? His reply, "When God materializes on earth he appears with his 4 cylindrical wheels of his throne chariot. The wheels travel independently and look like space ships zooming back and forth across the night sky. For God is surrounded by darkness and his wheels within wheels zoom to and fro out of his descending tornado from the Dark North."

Does this self taught scholar in the frozen region of the world have the long lost temple of Solomon's blueprints?


PART 1, ISRAELI PATENT OF SOLOMON'S TEMPLE GRANTED

http://www.solomonstemple.com

For more information contact Mike Young mike@solomonstemple.com
 
 
Cherry Bomb
22:46 / 02.04.02
Now I know where Sharon's going with this, at least in terms of isolating Arafat. He wants him to go into exile.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,677697,00.html

That is if he doesn't kill him, of course.

(Please forgive my lack of html skillz!)

I would like to ask, from a strategic military objective what exactly he thinks he will accomplish with that, but we are talking about Sharon here, who seems to be blinded by bloodlust. Believe me, I don't think Arafat is a saint but what Sharon is doing in return for the suicide bombings, it seems to me can only fuel the fire.

At this point it's almost like a spiral of violence that's moving on its own accord.
 
 
Ofermod
01:51 / 03.04.02
And, of course, there will be the point when Bush says to Sharon "You can't do this." and Sharon will answer "So how are things in Afghanistan?"
Just a thought.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
05:53 / 03.04.02
I heard someone on Today this morning (an Israeli spokesman, whose name I failed to catch) explicitly comparing the Israeli action in the Palestinian Authority with the US action in Afghanistan, and claiming that they were both part of the 'war on terrorism', so that day may not be too far off... Obviously the 'war on terrorism' is providing as much justification for oppressive military action here as it may do elsewhere (Russia/Chechnya, for example).

I do rather wonder how on earth anyone expected Arafat to do anything meaningful about suicide bombers when he's been confined to quarters in Ramallah since January, and when most of the order infrastructure of the Authority has been dismantled by Israeli army missiles. It's almost enough to make me think that Sharon never had any intention of allowing Arafat to remain in power, and is inciting Palestinian resistance for his own purposes (i.e. flattening the Authority and reducing the Palestinians to a dispossessed, refugee people).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:12 / 03.04.02
I hate to say this, Cat, but I think you're probably right.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
06:53 / 03.04.02
Just to add to the depressing impressions:

Saw an Israeli government spokesman on BBC news early this morning, again making the explicit connection between USA/Bin Laden and Israel/Arafat.

Particularly worrying was seeing a return to the good old days of Israeli spokesmen denying any responsibility/complicity in the growing violence, denying flatly that journalists were being harrassed (this in response to a statement by a BBC journo that journalists *were* being shot at) and not even trying to come up with a plausible explanation.

When people stop bothering to even pretend to explain themselves, they're evidently preparing for action that can't be explained away, and shutting off all channels of communication.
 
 
sleazenation
09:24 / 03.04.02
Yes i saw the same coverage this morning with the Israeli reprisentative shouting why press freedom deeded to be curtailed while the military carried out their 'mission'...

Its becoming increasingly obvious that America are more of an inhibition on any kind ceasefire/peace negotiations, their reprisentative should withdraw now and make room for a less compromised peace broker...
 
 
sleazenation
09:35 / 03.04.02
So, who's going to spill blood on the suggested birth place of Christ first then?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:49 / 03.04.02
This article about the massacres at Sabra and Shatila in 1982 explains why Sharon could easily be called a war criminal, and certainly brought it home to me that Sharon has always been like this.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:49 / 03.04.02
One thing I find particularly disturbing is the rounding-up by Israelis of all Palestinian men between the ages of 14 - 40. Just read this morning that over 700 men have been rounded up within the past several days. Isn't this reminiscent to ANYONE of the Nazis' actions towards the Jews? Or is it just me?
 
 
MJ-12
13:59 / 03.04.02
Now I know where Sharon's going with this, at least in terms of isolating Arafat. He wants him to go into exile.

given that Sharon's statement comes after Arafat's declaration that he'd rather die than return to exile, I think it's pretty obvious where Sharon is going. It's bit of lip service to say, "see, I can compromise," when he has the full intention of taking Arafat after the military has disarmed the PA as much as it can.

I would like to ask, from a strategic military objective what exactly he thinks he will accomplish with that,

An Israel safe and secure.
Behind a wall.
Of dead bodies.
 
 
Baz Auckland
16:56 / 03.04.02
I thought the comment by....damn, some guy from the EU was interesting: Sharon and Arafat should both go away and others should step in and try and work this out. The two of them are both over 60 (or 70?) and have been involved in this too long to come to any resolution.

There was an article a few weeks ago, comparing the treatment of Palestinians to the treatment of Jews during the holocaust.... apparently the Israeli military was numbering their prisoners, which was just too eerie of a practice...
 
 
Rev. Wright
18:26 / 03.04.02
Quote Wisewords @ GNN

It's getting depressing, how can a nation get away with so much. Is there any real justification for what the Israeli government are doing in Ramallah?

In the daytime, we heard them shooting people in the streets, and could hear them screaming and screaming. No ambulance was allowed through. Then their screams stopped and there was just silence.

...Large groups of people have been found in rooms, shot dead, there are blood marks where they have lined people up on their knees and shot them, with their ID cards laying on top of them. They are taking people from their homes, blindfolding them, removing their clothes, taking them away or lining them up and shooting them against the wall.

Taken from Urgent: Eyewitness Report From Ramallah


...and this....

Details Emerge About American Woman Shot Dead By Israeli Soldiers

http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20020403001932542

Suraida sat in the passenger seat holding her 9-month-old son Muhsin as Morad drove their car. A band of the notorious under cover units, undercover Israeli soldiers dressed like Arabs, stood in the shadows of an upcoming intersection. As the car approached, the Israelis opened fire without warning, shooting Suraida in the head and the chest. She died instantly.
 
 
Hieronymus
20:52 / 03.04.02
And to further lift spirits:

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020408/scenario.html

I swear, this is like two comic book villains going at each other. With people's lives in the crossfire.

Sharon, in a purple cape: I've got him! We've surrounded the blackhearted bastard's lair. Nothing can stop me now! Mwa ha ha ha ha!
 
 
Cherry Bomb
00:23 / 04.04.02
And you know, when The Vatican disapproves of your actions...

I am so furious at the U.S. just looking the other way (again!), simultaneously saying Arafat should remain in power and also condemning him for not reigning in the suicide bombers while he's confined to two rooms and surrounded by Israeli troops. As Ari "Fuckhead" Fleisher (Bush's PR man) said yesterday, "he can call his people."

I swear to you I am not making this up.
 
 
Lionheart
04:31 / 04.04.02
Here is a possibility. It's just a theory but think about it...

I think that, maybe, the government in Israel is basically composed of Nazi anti-semites who are posing as Jews and are trying to kill off as many jewish people as possible by pissing off other people.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
06:35 / 04.04.02
As Ari "Fuckhead" Fleisher (Bush's PR man) said yesterday, "he can call his people."

...on a mobile. Which he can't recharge. Duh. How can people be so insanely stupid about this?

Barry - yeah, they numbered prisoners 'to make processing easier'. It was with ink rather than tattooing or branding, but the image is... off-putting.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:57 / 04.04.02
A transcription of a UPI article on Israeli funding of Hamas.
 
 
netbanshee
14:33 / 04.04.02
...Bush just got on the horn stateside and played out his little piece on his war on terror. One interesting thing though is his call on both sides to cease the shit and take a big long look at the resolutions put out by the UN and the Arab League. It could be b.s. mumbo-jumbo but at least he isn't providing a view that he stands permanently fixed to Israel's ass...
 
 
grant
14:58 / 04.04.02
from Kit Kat's link:
> Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One US
intelligence
> source who asked not to be named, said that not only was Hamas being funded
> as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had a more devious purpose: "to
> help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were
> dangerous terrorists."
>
> In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could listen to
> debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous
> hardliners," the official said.
>
> In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence
> system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot.
 
 
seamonkey
15:45 / 04.04.02
Sigh. Somehow, this doesn't surprise me in the least...Israel following in America's footsteps by helping to create/foster its enemies due to stupid shortsightedness and devious intrigues. It figures.

Also, just heard Bush's announcement about sending Colin Powell to the region, I think it only happened as a result of the EU's threat to get involved. Musn't allow those foreigners to upstage us now, can we? Gotta build support for our blitz on Iraq after all...now that we consider the MidEast to be "our" sphere of influence. Feh. Someone wake me when the nukes go off. On second thought, don't bother.
 
 
Not Here Still
16:41 / 04.04.02
Well at least it's Powell rather than, say, Rumsfeld...

And %well done% to Bush for finaly fucking realising what might happen. (ie: the Middle East, not just Israel, blowing up)

He has warned Syria and Iran - who Rumsfeld just called terrorists - to stay out of the conflict. The words Red, Rag, and Bull, perhaps?

Meanwhile here, Farmers for Action's David Handley has said he may take action if petrol prices go up a few pence as a result of the situation in the Middle East. I don't want to call him a fuckwit, though - I know some very nice fuckwits.
 
  

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